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Child Item

ESB HQ to be demolished

MadsL

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/esb-to-replace-offices-with-loose-version-of-georgian-streetscape-1.1563200

So finally the ESB is to remove one of Ireland's most heinous architectural crimes.

The options:

Save the existing building (somehow)
Go with a new twist on the Georgian Terrace
Reinstate the original facades from photographs and drawings.

Adding poll now.

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lkionm

MadsL wrote: »

*narrows eyes*

Sorry. This is not the sceptics forum. Take it elsewhere

ottostreet

MadsL wrote: »

Here's a thread where your opinion would be on topic. Knock yourself out....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057063669

If I put up a thread about the state of the Parade area of Kilkenny on AH, it'd be moved, and I'd have to face people saying so. I can't see how this is any different, just because Dublin is the capital!

Plus, if I was in the position where I had put up such a thread, I wouldn't be so defensive about it...it's not like it's an insult or anything.

lkionm

ottostreet wrote: »

Nope, not since 2010!

Well then as I pointed out earlier to Mr American dream and to myself we are not allowed have an opinion on something that dosent affect us

April O Neill

MadsL wrote: »

Should it not also have regard for the era when the majority of the buildings around it were built?

And, IMO, the way to do that isn't to create a mock facade. Nothing worse! The houses should never have been knocked... but they have been, and the new design should be forward-looking with maybe some nod to what came before. Not imitation. Bleurgh!

Uaru

I agree the facade should be rebuilt. I don't really mind what goes inside as I'll most likely never be inside.

crockholm

April O Neill wrote: »

And, IMO, the way to do that isn't to create a mock facade. Nothing worse! The houses should never have been knocked... but they have been, and the new design should be forward-looking with maybe some nod to what came before. Not imitation. Bleurgh!

Honestly,Georgian brickwork is not that difficult to recreate.Doing it any other way will eventually see it being veiwed as the stephenson monstrosity,i.e.-out of place.

HeidiHeidi

crockholm wrote: »

Honestly,Georgian brickwork is not that difficult to recreate.Doing it any other way will eventually see it being veiwed as the stephenson monstrosity,i.e.-out of place.

They made a fairly poor fist of it along the north quays though - from Capel St Bridge up to O'Connell Bridge (I think) is mostly pastiche facades, and pretty poor ones at that.

I'd be all for reconstructing the Georgian facade if I thought it'd be done right - but I don't, so therefore I'd go for something with a nod to the Georgian nature of the area. And be very disappointed. Again.

April O Neill

crockholm wrote: »

Honestly,Georgian brickwork is not that difficult to recreate.Doing it any other way will eventually see it being veiwed as the stephenson monstrosity,i.e.-out of place.

I disagree, if it's not a monstrosity, it won't be viewed as such.

And the "recreate" thing. Why recreate? Why not try something new, move things along?

crockholm

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

They made a fairly poor fist of it along the north quays though - from Capel St Bridge up to O'Connell Bridge (I think) is mostly pastiche facades, and pretty poor ones at that.

I'd be all for reconstructing the Georgian facade if I thought it'd be done right - but I don't, so therefore I'd go for something with a nod to the Georgian nature of the area. And be very disappointed. Again.

Trust me,that isn't Georgian.It isn't even mock-Georgian.That was the developer asking what his boundaries were,and being told "ah,put a bit of brick in it,be grand".

All you would have to do is point to the buildings next door and say "that's what we want" I would have every faith in the engineers and tradesmen to deliver a result

K-9

MadsL wrote: »

Dubllin City Council have an objective in the current plan to reinstate the original terrace facades - this was once the longest Georgian terrace in the world.

So knock down a beautiful Georgian terrace 50 years ago and, after building a monument to TACA, replace it with a fake Georgian terrace.

In fairness, one thing we learnt through the bubble was how to build fake Georgian Mac Mansions.

The fcucking thing looks hideous, its only saving grace is it looks better than the monstrosity it is replacing.

Cookie_Monster

There's enough Georgian terrace around Dublin without making more mock-Georgian rubbish.

Leave it be unless there are actual structural reasons to replace it and maybe paint it pink or something so it annoys even more people.

Dartz

I worked in there once.

It had a very 1960's, 1970's feel to it. There were old pieces of hardware held as spare parts and technical books that dated back to the sixties inside the filing cabinets. (And they were still worth consulting because of the nature of the industry - a lot of that equipment was still in use, still functional and arguably better than the replacements). There was a sort of technical history in there as opposed to an architectural history.

And the restaraunt on the roof was nice offering good-value meals that didn't taste like horse****.

Also great for miniature golf but that was a story I'm sworn never to tell. For one thing, it might identify me and the year I worked there. Because it was a very transitional year for things...

randylonghorn

ottostreet wrote: »

No I'm not, but that doesn't stop me having an opinion.

And it doesn't stop people outside Dublin having an opinion on major planning decisions in what is, after all, our capital city either.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Leave it be unless there are actual structural reasons to replace it

There are.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

and maybe paint it pink or something so it annoys even more people.

They went that route already.

Cookie_Monster

randylonghorn wrote: »

There are.
They went that route already.

Ha, I didn't even read the link re the pink

MadsL

ottostreet wrote: »

If I put up a thread about the state of the Parade area of Kilkenny on AH, it'd be moved, and I'd have to face people saying so. I can't see how this is any different, just because Dublin is the capital!

If it made the national news would it be a national issue? Lke this did.

Plus, if I was in the position where I had put up such a thread, I wouldn't be so defensive about it...it's not like it's an insult or anything.

I've given you a thread where this discussion is on topic, I notice you din't bother, so I can only assume that your intention is to annoy. So, I'm done on this thread with discussing where the thread should be. report it to the mods if you have a problem, and take it to Feedback if you want to discuss Dublin or National threads.

Why is it people only do this for Dublin threads?? Never hear "take it to the UK/United States forums"...

Retrovertigo

MadsL wrote: »

I've given you a thread where this discussion is on topic, I notice you din't bother, so I can only assume that your intention is to annoy. So, I'm done on this thread with discussing where the thread should be. report it to the mods if you have a problem, and take it to Feedback if you want to discuss Dublin or National threads.

WOAH, NELLY!

I'm also a backseat mod, partner. I think you might be taking things a little too personal for no reason. Now excuse me while I save that wagon!

MadsL

Retrovertigo wrote: »

I think you might be taking things a little too personal for no reason.

I'm only questioning why people feel the need to piss over threads, simply because they are about a Dublin topic with national interest. It's getting old.

Report them and let the mods do their job or click next and read something else. Quit whining.

Agonist

I haven't decided yet which facade I want.

I'd love to see reinstatement of the demolished houses. It should never have happened and should be rectified as soon as possible. However, I think there'd have to be a marker of which buildings were old and which new. I don't believe in trying to wipe out 50 years of history completely. At the same time I'd fear that they'd make a balls of the rebuilding using horrible modern brick and cement pointing, cheap Chinese granite for the stone details and get the Georgian proportions all wrong.

On the other hand I think the modern design is a reasonable attempt to both acknowledge the site's history and include a contemporary interpretation of Georgian streetscape, thus avoiding pastiche.

It's scary to think what mindset Ireland was in then to allow it to happen, and Wood Quay too. There were young architects protesting because they wanted the terrace torn down! Not to live in the past, to embrace progress...what the hell were they being taught?

As far as I know, student architects are still taught to love Busarus. It's sold to them from numerous different angles as a groundbreaking building of great beauty. I wonder if and when they stopped teaching that Sam Stephenson was an inspirational, creative genius.

crockholm

Agonist wrote: »

I haven't decided yet which facade I want.

I'd love to see reinstatement of the demolished houses. It should never have happened and should be rectified as soon as possible. However, I think there'd have to be a marker of which buildings were old and which new. I don't believe in trying to wipe out 50 years of history completely. At the same time I'd fear that they'd make a balls of the rebuilding using horrible modern brick and cement pointing, cheap Chinese granite for the stone details and get the Georgian proportions all wrong.

On the other hand I think the modern design is a reasonable attempt to both acknowledge the site's history and include a contemporary interpretation of Georgian streetscape, thus avoiding pastiche.

It's scary to think what mindset Ireland was in then to allow it to happen, and Wood Quay too. There were young architects protesting because they wanted the terrace torn down! Not to live in the past, to embrace progress...what the hell were they being taught?

As far as I know, student architects are still taught to love Busarus. It's sold to them from numerous different angles as a groundbreaking building of great beauty. I wonder if and when they stopped teaching that Sam Stephenson was an inspirational, creative genius.

The problem is that the modern interpretation will eventually turn into something "contemporary" of the early 21st century,and out of place with its neighbours.Should we give all our historic castles and churches a modern contemporary twist too?
We have dedicated firms who specialize in restoration,so thinking that it's going to be built by a bunch of cowboys who did a sh1tty job down the road is wrong.
The pointing could end up being tuck pointing,so that's not a worry.

Jester252

I can't understand why anyone would want to keep the HQ in its current form. I much rather see it rebuild with a twist on georgian design

Gummy Panda

Am I the only one who thinks Georgian houses look ****?

wildlifeboy

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks Georgian houses look ****?

yes you are. so you like the ESB building or the wood quay developments?

Agonist

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks Georgian houses look ****?

Compared to what?

Nobody's saying they look better than a dormer bungalow or three bed semi but still, they're nice In their own way.

crockholm

I think that they are certainly bland compared to the Dutch Billies that were torn down to create the space for them,and the beautiful Victorian buildings that followed after.

April O Neill

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks Georgian houses look ****?

They can, yes. I like Georgian architecture but too much of it can sometimes be a bit dreary, depending on the colour of the brick. I'm thinking Limerick city centre.

April O Neill

wildlifeboy wrote: »

yes you are. so you like the ESB building or the wood quay developments?

Yes, because if you don't like one then that automatically means you like the other.

Sleepy

Am I the only one who thinks they should keep the damn thing as it is and reduce electricity prices instead of charging us all more so they can have a nice office?

Eponymous

Even if they were to reinstate the original Georgian buildings, it'd never be the same.

My dad grew up in that area and he's still bitter about what they did. Fireplaces chucked into skips, intricate plasterwork destroyed. The museum on the corner is an insult.

All the more sickening is how proud ESB are of the building. I was in it years ago for work and a fairly senior manager there was boasting about how it reflected the Georgian architecture. It seemed lost on him that having four floors of red-brick in no way looked anything like a Georgian terrace.

I don't really care what they put there now, but I would be quite happy to see what's there ripped down.

FWIW, in relation to paving, I see there's quite a bit of work going on on Merrion Sq to restore it. What they've done so far looks great, not that I'd spend any huge amount of time admiring paving or anything!

Nodin

Agonist wrote: »

I haven't decided yet which facade I want.

I'd love to see reinstatement of the demolished houses. It should never have happened and should be rectified as soon as possible. However, I think there'd have to be a marker of which buildings were old and which new. I don't believe in trying to wipe out 50 years of history completely. At the same time I'd fear that they'd make a balls of the rebuilding using horrible modern brick and cement pointing, cheap Chinese granite for the stone details and get the Georgian proportions all wrong.

On the other hand I think the modern design is a reasonable attempt to both acknowledge the site's history and include a contemporary interpretation of Georgian streetscape, thus avoiding pastiche.

It's scary to think what mindset Ireland was in then to allow it to happen, and Wood Quay too. There were young architects protesting because they wanted the terrace torn down! Not to live in the past, to embrace progress...what the hell were they being taught?

As far as I know, student architects are still taught to love Busarus. It's sold to them from numerous different angles as a groundbreaking building of great beauty. I wonder if and when they stopped teaching that Sam Stephenson was an inspirational, creative genius.

....perhaps a façade with the disinterred remains of those responsible for this and other planning disasters in the capital nailed to it would be fitting.....

Voodoomelon

Re-instate the original terrace façade.

The costs associated with it will be punishment for retarded decision making.
I don't believe in "mock" Georgian if the build is done correctly. To me, "mock" is when an architect takes trivial Georgian characteristics and applies them to a new build monstrosity with new building techniques, built by some daughter of a farmer who has a few acres to spare.

Knocking that steaming pile that is the ESB will be a breath of fresh air, replaced by a façade with reclaimed 1800 brick, pointed lime mortar, refurbished/rebuilt 6 over 6 sashes with appropriate roofing and associated guttering/downpipes.

From what i've learned with my own renovation, is that many of the trades involved are no where near as expensive are you might think. The glass alone in the proposed development would be many times the cost of reinstating rebuilt/refurbished sashes.