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Peig Sayers

dj jarvis

i know even reading that name fills me full of dread :-(

i have some tourists staying with me , and they were asking about the Irish language, and they asked why we dont speak it more.

i had one answer

PEIG SAYERS !!!

that book done more to kill any love of the Language that any violent christian brother ever could

so AH - describe what you feel in one word when you hear the name
PEIG SAYERS !!!

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spurious

I loved Peig. We had a fantastic Irish teacher who had photos of all the areas and landmarks mentioned, as well as a treasure trove of Peig's 'real' stories (the ones that didn't make it into the school version of her life) - quite fond of the blue tales, was Peig and VERY fond of the men. I think they still have original recordings in Cork or Galway University.

[Deleted User]

losthorizon wrote: »

I cant speak a word of Irish and was always very anti saving the Irish language for loads of reasons. They foisted that stupid book on us, the teachers were usually terrible but the main reason was that you had to conform to a certain view of being Irish to speak Irish. It was like a fiddle playing, GAA loving, FF sporting culchie concept. Thats the way it was. You couldnt on the other hand, like going to football games ( soccer AH), Rock music, the BEEB, Granham Greene and speak Irish which is daft. Of course irish is going to die with this type of attitude or attract oddballs and diehards of a certain persuasion.

However, after travelling to over 30 nations where everybody speaks their own language no matter how small the country I've changed my opinion although not about the facts that the Irish language should be not be just for the nutters and claimed by a certain section of society.

Indeed it would have been handy to discuss matters abroad with my other half without others people knowing what we were talking about before we came to a decision in Hotels and restaurants and things. Hopefully things are changing in this regard and I know for instance that my nephews go to an All-Irish speaking school and it seems to be an excellent schoool.

That's my main reason for wanting to learn it. The little I do speak comes in handy for discussing that sort of thing with my OH. Awful, I know.

Call me Al

Insect Overlord wrote: »

That's where you're wrong. It's a very valuable document of social history in one of the most remote regions of this little country.

The problem was that it was force-fed to school kids instead of being left to 3rd level students and enthusiastic scholars.

I agree completely with this perspective. It was unnecessary for 17 yo teenagers to read this when I'm quite sure there were other perfectly good, and far more relevant, texts available to study. As someone who loved Irish in school, and who tries to use it daily with my family, this was torture for even me. It has left a generation of 40+ year olds with a bad impression of their language.

P. Breathnach

losthorizon wrote: »

...
Indeed it would have been handy to discuss matters abroad with my other half without others people knowing what we were talking about before we came to a decision in Hotels and restaurants and things. Hopefully things are changing in this regard and I know for instance that my nephews go to an All-Irish speaking school and it seems to be an excellent schoool.

A friend went with a business colleague to buy stuff from foreign suppliers. The bargaining reached a crunch point, and the foreigners switched to their own language to confer between themselves. The two Irish lads felt disadvantaged until my friend had the bright idea of reciting a few words from an Irish prayer from his school days, and his colleague picked up on it and responded with a few more words. Obviously it did nothing for their own thinking, but removed the implicit disadvantage that the other party had created for them.

Galwayguy35

spurious wrote: »

I loved Peig. We had a fantastic Irish teacher who had photos of all the areas and landmarks mentioned, as well as a treasure trove of Peig's 'real' stories (the ones that didn't make it into the school version of her life) - quite fond of the blue tales, was Peig and VERY fond of the men. I think they still have original recordings in Cork or Galway University.

I can see you are a teacher but do you seriously mean that as a young person of 16 that you were really interested in Peig?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

spurious wrote: »

I loved Peig. We had a fantastic Irish teacher who had photos of all the areas and landmarks mentioned, as well as a treasure trove of Peig's 'real' stories (the ones that didn't make it into the school version of her life) - quite fond of the blue tales, was Peig and VERY fond of the men. I think they still have original recordings in Cork or Galway University.

That post is so isolated it almost looks like trolling! (I know it isn't and fully accept your point, though!)

That said, Peig being a deviant pervert would certainly have made the dam nthing worth reading.

padd b1975

I thought Peig was ok as regards having to learn it for an exam, the dialect of Irish was fairly straight forward and not too difficult.

Her running mate Tóraíocht Diarmuid agus Grainne was a complete nightmare to understand, even for someone who grew up in the Gaeltacht....

Amirani

I couldn't take the Irish Leaving Cert properly because of the ridiculous focus on outdated and boring Irish literature. Irish Literature and Irish Language study should really be separate subjects.

Since leaving school, I've used the language occasionally, particularly when abroad. I've not on one occasion though discussed the travails of Maidhc Dainin or the Fenian influence on Stair na Gaeilge (until this post).

FloatingVoter

P. Breathnach wrote: »

A friend went with a business colleague to buy stuff from foreign suppliers. The bargaining reached a crunch point, and the foreigners switched to their own language to confer between themselves. The two Irish lads felt disadvantaged until my friend had the bright idea of reciting a few words from an Irish prayer from his school days, and his colleague picked up on it and responded with a few more words. Obviously it did nothing for their own thinking, but removed the implicit disadvantage that the other party had created for them.

Ar nather ata er nave agus ta will be well cad agum go di amach an lettucehead amen.

who the fug

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Ar nather ata er nave agus ta will be well cad agum go di amach an lettucehead amen.

higham

The Aussie

Is she the stupid old bag who had the son pulling grass on the side of a cliff???

Sounded like an early entrant for the Darwin Awards when I first heard it :pac: ....

"This one is real hard, I will use two hands and pull really really hard..."

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The Aussie wrote: »

Is she the stupid old bag who had the son pulling grass on the side of a cliff???

Sounded like an early entrant for the Darwin Awards when I first heard it :pac: ....

"This one is real hard, I will use two hands and pull really really hard..."

I refer the search for contenders to the scene where some parapfin barrels washed up on the beach to a certain Cait Jim (not sure if that was the character's real name, but it's a safe bet).

Our awreness was rasied in the following manner, during translation of said incident:

[Teacher read line in Irish]

Teacher translated: "And Cait Jim (or wheover) wasn't sure how much was left in the last barrel..."

[Teacher read next line in Irish]

Teacher translated: "So he struck a match and dropped it into the barrel..."

You can imagine the rest. I cracked up laughing and get sent to the Principal's office.

Legs.Eleven

Peig was before my time but if it was any worse than what they had on the curriculum for the Leaving in the late 90s, it must be diabolical. Who in the love of jaysus thought the books they chose (and am sure are still choosing) for the LC would ignite any love for the language in teenagers?

eeeee

I didn't mind Peig too much, I though she was fairly inoffensive. Irish writers in English are often just as bad for the old misery-Angela's Ashes anyone?!

I did love a poem we did for the LC, called Úr Conic Céin Mhic Cáinte (sp?) , Beautifully lyrical piece. Also a dirty last verse (basically a poet is trying to woo a lady and telling her all the lovely stuff he'll do for hear, milk and honey etc. and teh last verse is her response-as the teacher translated 'you hvaen't a big enough instrument for making children with'. To a class of 16 yo girls. Titter titter titter !)

The history of Irish was interesting too, maybe more of that instead of the old misery lit?

If anyone knows where I can get a copy of it? I'd love to read it again, it's by 'anonymous' I think. Which does not help google!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Peig was before my time but if it was any worse than what they had on the curriculum for the Leaving in the late 90s, it must be diabolical. Who in the love of jaysus thought the books they chose (and am sure are still choosing) for the LC would ignite any love for the language in teenagers?

Might be a synical to say, but I'm not entirely sure that was the aim.

Legs.Eleven

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Might be a synical to say, but I'm not entirely sure that was the aim.

It really should've been.

P. Breathnach

gadetra wrote: »

I didn't mind Peig too much, I though she was fairly inoffensive. Irish writers in English are often just as bad for the old misery-Angela's Ashes anyone?!

I did love a poem we did for the LC, called Úr Conic Céin Mhic Cáinte (sp?) , Beautifully lyrical piece. Also a dirty last verse (basically a poet is trying to woo a lady and telling her all the lovely stuff he'll do for hear, milk and honey etc. and teh last verse is her response-as the teacher translated 'you hvaen't a big enough instrument for making children with'. To a class of 16 yo girls. Titter titter titter !)

The history of Irish was interesting too, maybe more of that instead of the old misery lit?

If anyone knows where I can get a copy of it? I'd love to read it again, it's by 'anonymous' I think. Which does not help google!

It wasn't written by that prolific scribe "anon", but by Peadar Ó Doirnín from South Armagh.

Here are the words (with translation): http://www.standingstones.com/harppoem5.html

You can listen to it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DNLVrwO9B8

endacl

Blaming Peig for a dislike of the language is a bit daft, in fairness. It's like saying 'I hated Hamlet so I'm never going to speak English again', or 'calculus was boring. Therefore I refuse to work out change in a shop'.

Standard boring whinge that's been trotted out for years. Maybe y'all learnt something from Peig after all...?

Alannah Gallagher

I bought the book a few months ago. Strangely the first few places I tried only had it TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH!!!

Cut the woman some slack. You only had to read it, she had to live it.

Cody Pomeray

What a lot of people don't know about Peig is that it was heavily edited to correspond to the cultural narrative that was being sought by Máire Uí Chinnéide and the publishers of the authobiography.

As far as I know there is no manuscript in existence which represents a true portrayal of Peig Sayers' own words, but it would be an interesting read; albeit itself subject to the hand of Micheal O Guithín, who was her son, since Peig Sayers did not write any of it herself.

But yeah. The words had to pass through 2 or 3 different hands, who knows how much of it is rubbish and how much of it represents an accurate picture of the woman's life and emotions, which I imagine are a lot more complex than what is allowed for in the book.

Smidge

dj jarvis wrote: »

i know even reading that name fills me full of dread :-(

i have some tourists staying with me , and they were asking about the Irish language, and they asked why we dont speak it more.

i had one answer

PEIG SAYERS !!!

that book done more to kill any love of the Language that any violent christian brother ever could

so AH - describe what you feel in one word when you hear the name
PEIG SAYERS !!!

Did they just wander in or something OP or do you have an establishment?

RhubarbCrumble

I didn't mind Peig, but I hated Shakespeare. Did The Merchant of Venice for Junior Cert, and got a different teacher for Leaving Cert. Still love her for doing O' Casey, The plough and the stars. She wouldn't do Shakespeare with us because she said "He's too much trouble, you need to translate him into english before you can understand him"! The other classes all got stuck with King Lear that year.

Insect Overlord

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Our awreness was rasied in the following manner, during translation of said incident:

[Teacher read line in Irish]

Teacher translated: "And Cait Jim (or wheover) wasn't sure how much was left in the last barrel..."

[Teacher read next line in Irish]

Teacher translated: "So he struck a match and dropped it into the barrel..."

You can imagine the rest. I cracked up laughing and get sent to the Principal's office.

I think Muiris Ó Súilleabháin mentioned that incident in his memoir as well. It was a pretty major disaster at the time. A house full of people were killed. A lot of their relatives still live in the area, and the spot where the house stood is included in walking tours of Dún Chaoin.

Meangadh

I did A Thig ná Tit Orm for my LC and loved it, some funny little yarns in it. I'm an Irish teacher now and do An Triail with my students and although it's a very heavy topic that's dealt with in the play, it's brilliantly written and the vast majority of my students seem to enjoy it.

I definitely wouldn't simply blame one woman from Kerry for the bad attitude or feelings so many have towards Irish, but there were and are still people who choose what goes on the Irish syllabus who are totally out of touch with what students (and teachers too) would rather be doing in their Irish classes. It has improved with the oral now worth 40% and at least with TG4 and Lurgan and all that, there's definitely a relevance to the language for students that makes them more positive towards it.

There's still loads I'd love to change about the course but it's a start at least. And for the most part my students actually quite like Irish, they just get very frustrated with the course I think. They also come into secondary school often very ill equipped and lacking the basics if their primary school teachers didn't have good Irish so that means they're kind of always playing catch up. There used to be a great tradition in primary schools in Ireland of teachers who were real Gaelgoirs and gave a lot of their instructions as Gaeilge and spoke to their fellow teachers as Gaeilge in the corridors etc. That's totally dying out and I would bet my house that a huge number of primary school teachers would now struggle to have a decent conversation in Irish.

I know that sounds like I'm bashing the primary teachers but I have a lot of friends who are in these jobs and they are terrified of speaking in Irish, so they won't do it bar the basics with their class. They work really hard and I've no doubt are fantastic teachers, but their Irish certainly isn't up to scratch. Every school varies of course, but it's often quite obvious when I meet 1st years what primary school they went to from the standard of their Irish.

Other thing of course is that Irish people are always going to be lazy about languages when English is the first language for most of us. We just don't need to even try when so many others around the world are the ones putting in the effort so that they can talk to us. English is everywhere so we don't even bother. Funnily enough then it's for that reason I think that a lot of students I teach who would originally be from other countries are often fantastic at picking up Irish- their ears are tuned in more to learning other tongues and also they get grammar rules far better than we do. English speaking people are often brutal about knowing about adverbs, adjectives, verbs etc- they might know what sounds right, but they couldn't tell you why. That makes learning other languages harder.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings- bottom line, Peig didn't help, but there's more to the decline of Irish than an auld one in a shawl.

April O Neill

I did my LC in 2001, I'm 29 and so I feel I should have at some stage studied this torturous Peig Sayers text everyone complains about. But no, there was just a brief mention of her some day one day in primary school and that was it. When was she taken off the curriculum? And was it primary or secondary school she was taught in? I've not a notion!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

endacl wrote: »

Blaming Peig for a dislike of the language is a bit daft, in fairness. It's like saying 'I hated Hamlet so I'm never going to speak English again', or 'calculus was boring. Therefore I refuse to work out change in a shop'.

Standard boring whinge that's been trotted out for years. Maybe y'all learnt something from Peig after all...?

Well... no, it isn't.

Peig was a large portion of our exposure to the Irish langauge. Hamlet was not a large portion of our exposure to the English langauge. You could say "never going to study Shakespeare" and a lot of peopel did feel that way.

However, a lot of people have also expresed the opinion that the book itself is boring, depressing and, itself, the work of whinging old woman, and these ar the reasons - not the book itself - are the cause for a lot of the negative opinions towards the langauge itself.

There were of course many other factors which of turned people away from the langauge, but Peig personifies all of these reasons. To say that it's a "standard boring whinge" is to bury one's head in the sand, something even the Department of Education stopped doing when the book came off the syllabus twenty years ago.

FutureGuy

The SINGULAR reason I dropped down to Pass Irish. Was doing all Honours otherwise.

Hated it. The most depressing load of sh!te ever.

How to ensure that everyone gets an A in Irish? Start a Love/Hate spinoff book series in Irish. Throw it on the curriculum.

Insect Overlord

FutureGuy wrote: »

How to ensure that everyone gets an A in Irish? Start a Love/Hate spinoff book series in Irish. Throw it on the curriculum.

The crime/thriller Dúnmharú ar an DART is on the Junior Cert syllabus now. It's a little bit dated, but it's a fun, simple story.

endacl

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Well... no, it isn't.

Peig was a large portion of our exposure to the Irish langauge. Hamlet was not a large portion of our exposure to the English langauge. You could say "never going to study Shakespeare" and a lot of peopel did feel that way.

However, a lot of people have also expresed the opinion that the book itself is boring, depressing and, itself, the work of whinging old woman, and these ar the reasons - not the book itself - are the cause for a lot of the negative opinions towards the langauge itself.

There were of course many other factors which of turned people away from the langauge, but Peig personifies all of these reasons. To say that it's a "standard boring whinge" is to bury one's head in the sand, something even the Department of Education stopped doing when the book came off the syllabus twenty years ago.

Peig was one element of the final two year part of your 13/14 year 'official' exposure to the language! She didn't make it or break it. Give her a break. Has the poor woman not suffered enough? Ochon, ochon...

[Deleted User]

RhubarbCrumble wrote: »

I didn't mind Peig, but I hated Shakespeare. Did The Merchant of Venice for Junior Cert, and got a different teacher for Leaving Cert. Still love her for doing O' Casey, The plough and the stars. She wouldn't do Shakespeare with us because she said "He's too much trouble, you need to translate him into english before you can understand him"! The other classes all got stuck with King Lear that year.

That's awful
Shakespeare is wonderful and I'm disappointed in an english teacher announcing that attitude

April O Neill wrote: »

I did my LC in 2001, I'm 29 and so I feel I should have at some stage studied this torturous Peig Sayers text everyone complains about. But no, there was just a brief mention of her some day one day in primary school and that was it. When was she taken off the curriculum? And was it primary or secondary school she was taught in? I've not a notion!

I was 2001 too, we did a thig na tit orm