Stheno wrote: » No speculation on point one see http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056828675&page=2 It was two junior doctors who commited suicide, plenty of supplementary artciles etc in the thread I've linked to. My second point is that having been admitted to a and e at 9pm one evening, it took five days just before I had surgery for doctors to reexamine original blood tests (I only had one set taken) and find a result that had previously been missed. I can see how tiredness could have caused that.
Cody Pomeray wrote: » It isn't literally a case of always being on duty and on their feet for 35 hours, which might be the perception.
humbert wrote: » Yes, there was. You were speculating as to the cause. Now if one of those links makes that concrete then, absolutely, fair enough. I'm not hunting through every link on that thread to verify your assertion though. The facts in second point could be interpreted any number of ways and that you are trying to force them to fit your agenda weakens your argument. An argument, I should say, which is very strong without resorting to speculation.
Stheno wrote: » Fine, stick with your "nothing is wrong because I know one graduate from medicine who coped fine with the system" I will not use the system if I can, I will use private options instead rather than depend on a system which finds it appropriate to force people to work 72-84 hours on the trot with minimal rest. I know what system I'd prefer to be treated under, and it's not our current public health system.
y0ssar1an22 wrote: » Time for the nurses to man up...lets see if they are worth what they think they are
Femme_Fatale wrote: » Junior doctors can be expected to work 35 hours on the trot, with the odd short break for a power-nap. That is utter insanity, and dangerous to patients as well as doctors. Blame whoever or whatever permits this craziness.
humbert wrote: » I have explicitly said, in every post, that I think change is necessary and the current system is daft but you feel free to throw a hissy fit.
Cody Pomeray wrote: » It probably depends on the hospital. Your average SHO in a country Hospital, with 30 sleeping Grannies under his roof is going to have a far less stressful zillion hour shift than an SHO in Tallaght or the Mater or that. On the other hand, in the latter cases I would just assume there is a rota for on-call work divided by the various departments. I don't want to come across as defending the practice as it is. My point is only that the experiences I have heard is of of junior doctors who do manage to get rest, it's just that they report problems sleeping and related issues, which undermines the rest they get. It isn't literally a case of always being on duty and on their feet for 35 hours, which might be the perception.
Czarcasm wrote: » When they're wiping your shìtty arse because you're unable to wipe it for yourself... actually you probably won't have the capacity to think they're worth every cent then either.
Busted Flat. wrote: » I do not know where you are coming from with that remark, bur the nurses I have met through my few problems, and hospital stays, you will not find finer than ours. Get a grip clown or explain your comment.
Stheno wrote: » No I felt free to point out both the personal ramificiations as experienced by a doctor working in the system, and how it has affected me as a patient. We both agree the system needs changing, it's sheer madness subjecting new entrants to the medical profession to that stress.
y0ssar1an22 wrote: » Chill out. I know nurses over here are very good and all that good stuff. What I was saying is that they are always looking for more responsibility and more money. Countless times I have heard them on the radio saying they could do the work of a doctor. Well heres their chance
shedweller wrote: » And there should be no good reason for that, given how much prsi we pump into it. It needs to be reformed badly. But private is not ideal either. Just look at the wonderful healthcare there is in the good ole us of a. There is a ****ing tragic system that pisses all over anyone that hasn't forked out $20k plus or minus. Every man for himself etc. Basically if you dont earn over a certain amount you are on your own. Be that as it may but dont tout it as the be all and end all of healthcare. Thats just a case of "feck you, i'm all right"
Busted Flat. wrote: » You should try and keep up with the times. Try and change channels and develop a broader outlook on life.
y0ssar1an22 wrote: » Perhaps I tried to communicate my point in too flippant a manner. If they go on strike why dont the nurses volunteer their services? I am no expert, but from what they (nurses) say, they should be able to handle the void left by junior docs. I am quite happy with my outlook on life. Thanks for the concern though
y0ssar1an22 wrote: » If they go on strike why dont the nurses volunteer their services? I am no expert, but from what they (nurses) say, they should be able to handle the void left by junior docs.
Busted Flat. wrote: » Imature and not in the real world.
Dr Nic wrote: » I'm lying in bed unable to sleep a few hours before starting my Saturday call. Its 4am and only about 12 hours after finished my thurs shift. 50 minutes sleep btw half 7 Thursday and 4pm Friday. I thought my eyes were going to bleed. Not complaining just stating facts. My family asked me what do I do on-call. Every1 assumes on-call means at home in bed awaiting an odd call. 3 arrests, 2 rip, 1 anaphylaxis, 2 chest pain, 2 hdu admissions and 6 elective admissions that could easily have been done by day staff if the patient could have came in earlier. Even got given out to cause I didn't do the ECG overnight for one elective, cause 'he's first on the list, now they'll have it over us'... A chest pain is an hour. Arrest minimum 30 mins. I don't measure these thing in any other way cause all I crave is bleep free time to rest. But it never came Then I start my day job and im expected to know by heart every detail & blood result about my inpatient list for my consultant, who after a quick round where he gives me jobs then heads off to a private clinic. He will round later and expect the results of the jobs he asked for done. I also assist in theatre for an hour and saw 5 patients in clinic Also got a few jibes thrown at me about how much I earn, the strike and 'dodging work'. It starts again in 5 hours 20 mins
sam34 wrote: » I've been on both sides of the fence, I was an NCHD and now I'm one of those much-maligned consultants (before anyone starts, I don't see private patients, I don't feck off golfing or anywhere else during working hours, I work about 60 hours a week (plus on-call) 39 of which are paid, and I don't get payments or holidays from drug companies to prescribe their drug.) I look back on my NCHD days with horror and resentment. I lost my early to mid twenties to horrendous working conditions. Over one year i routinely (as in, one weekend in 4) did a weekend on call which consisted of 9am Saturday to 5 pm Monday, with no guarantee whatsoever of a break. the worst one of those I did was one during which I got a grand total of about one or one and a half hours sleep, in broken segments (can't be more specific, the details are hazy now). and even the sleep you get, if you get it, is not quality sleep, you are always on alert for the bleep, you hear others bleeps going, their doors banging etc. I recall coming home utterly exhausted, thinking that even the effort of stopping at a takeaway was too much, I'd much rather just go to bed hungry. I can vividly remember 24 hour shifts during which I didn't even get a chance have a cup of tea, much less a meal. I can remember one day after a shift from 9am the previous day to 5 pm the next, ie 32 hours, when I decided to get a taxi home rather than drive as I didn't think I was ok to drive, yet 30 mins before I'd been looking after some seriously ill people who, frankly, deserved better than the exhausted frazzled wreck they were getting. I've puked at work, from sheer exhaustion. I've gotten dehydrated. I've seen colleagues literally faint and collapse. I've seen the conditions burn people out so that they end up hating their careers, resenting the patients and ultimately leaving. I've heard of the tragedies. it's an inhumane way to treat people. what's further sickening is the inevitable hse rhetoric that this is about money- its not. it's about safety for patients and doctors. I'm amazed we haven't seen the annual article about some NCHD somewhere who earned 100k in overtime wheeled out by the hse to illustrate how greedy and over paid docs are- they never seem to question just how many hours that doctor worked to earn that money. life is different for me now, as a consultant. there's a different set of demands and pressures. the hours are much more civilised, and the on-call is a different kind of busy, many phonecalls throughout the night etc. I look at my college friends, some of whom are consultants, some GPs, some still in training, some having left medicine, and all wi have their version of my tale above, different hospitals but the facts the same. when you're working those kinda shifts, with the resultant exhaustion, it's hard maintain a life outside medicine. don't forget you need to study for post graduate exams as well while you're working like this. your family might understand that you aren't available at weekeds, or that you can't always get out of on-call, friends outside of medicine understand it at first, but get sick of hearing "sorry, I'm on call" or "sorry, I was on last nite and I'm wrecked" when they suggest meeting up. maintaining a relationship is very difficult. I'm not trying to paint doctors as unsung heroes here, though maybe I should. the bottom line is they are hard working individuals with huge responsibility who should be allowed work in safe conditions. is that too much to ask for?
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