Is there a differance between the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA?

Manassas61 wrote: »

Better off ... culturally.

Lol.

Manassas61 wrote: »

Better off financially and culturally. But there is many other benefits to it. The NHS being one of the major ones. Plenty of reasons.

Actually if you look at the human development index you will see that the Free State ranks higher than the UK and well Northern Ireland is the UK's hell hole. While the NHS is important other things balance out the social services supplied by the south. The six counties before partition was an economic power house-partition and remaining in the UK has crippled it.

What cultural reasons could there be?

SoulandForm wrote: »

Actually if you look at the human development index you will see that the Free State ranks higher than the UK and well Northern Ireland is the UK's hell hole. While the NHS is important other things balance out the social services supplied by the south. The six counties before partition was an economic power house-partition and remaining in the UK has crippled it.

What cultural reasons could there be?

I am from a Ulster Scots background. So Unionism is part of my culture and intertwined.

None of the UK or the Irish Republic is an economic power house any more. The Empire is gone and the Irish Republic is certainly not a power house in anything.

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Lol.

He asked why "I". That is one of the reasons I vote Unionist. Get over yourself.

Reasons I can see for maintaining the Union- the UK is much more likely to get out of the EU than the 26 counties, the serious danger of the southern establishment allowing Loyalists to walk all over "rotten prods" and the CNR population as well as the crazy amount of political correctness in the south.

Manassas61 wrote: »

He asked why "I". That is one of the reasons I vote Unionist. Get over yourself.

You do realise that Unionist culture is alien to the British (of Britain), don't you? In fact I'd go as far as to say the British (of Britain) are far more familiar with Irish culture than Unionist.

I can understand why you'd vote in what you believe is your economic interests but how exactly does the union serve Unionist culture when ye're facing the future as a minority with SF as the pre-eminent political force and people who are not cultural Unionists running the place?

Manassas61 wrote: »

I am from a Ulster Scots background. So Unionism is part of my culture and intertwined.

None of the UK or the Irish Republic is an economic power house any more. The Empire is gone and the Irish Republic is certainly not a power house in anything.

Uh no its not a lot of Ulster Presbyterians in the 17 th and 18 th centuries were borderline anarchists who only recognized Christ as their King which is one of the reasons that Irish Republicanism came out originally from non-Anglican Protestant circles. The Ulster Irish is much more interwined or was with Ulster Scot's culture until the stupid cold war with the south when everything that seemed to "Irish" was jettisoned.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/census-1911-belfasts-shankill-had-as-many-irish-speakers-as-falls-28733198.html

Unionism is NOT culture- its a political position.

Charlie Rock wrote: »

You do realise that Unionist culture is alien to the British (of Britain), don't you?

I can understand why you'd vote in what you believe is your economic interests but how exactly does the union serve Unionist culture when ye're facing the future as a minority with SF as the pre-eminent political force and people who are not cultural Unionists running the place?

I don't care if it is alien to them, it is part of my heritage. My heritage is not the same heritage for everyone. That is what makes every group of people different.

If you have looked at the latest polls on the support of the Union, it is miles in front of the support for a United Ireland. With a substantial Catholic support may I add.

The DUP is currently the biggest political party in Northern Ireland. Sinn Fein aren't. If anything in the future does change, I will probably be dead by then. So I don't care.

Unionism is NOT culture- its a political position.

Which is my position. I am a Unionist. Shoot me for it...

The Union flag is my flag. Might not be for everyone but there you go.

Manassas61 wrote: »

I don't care if it is alien to them, it is part of my heritage. My heritage is not the same heritage for everyone. That is what makes every group of people different.

Yeah but how does the union with Britain serve this? Do you think the lads in Westminster really give a shit whether a bunch of lads with drums and flutes get to march past the Ardoyne shops or not?

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Yeah but how does the union with Britain serve this? Do you think the lads in Westminster really give a shit whether a bunch of lads with drums and flutes get to march past the Ardoyne shops or not?

The lads in Westminster don't give a sh*t about much, including their own voters. They aren't born here, so it doesn't effect them. So in fact, it is rather irrelevant.

Being a Unionist is a perfectly reasonable position to have for many different reasons. I ain't the only one.

Manassas61 wrote: »

I don't care if it is alien to them, it is part of my heritage. My heritage is not the same heritage for everyone. That is what makes every group of people different.

The sad thing is that today you can find a much more authentic Ulster Scot's culture in the Appalachian mountains than you can in actual Ulster where they have kept alive older and more complex musical forms. The sad thing also is that I have found Republicans not from Ulster Scot backgrounds who are much more well versed in Ulster Scot history and past culture than the over whelming majority of Unionists. If you go to highlands of Scotland or the Welsh speaking areas of Wales you can see an actually healthy celtic Protestant culture and there you can come to understand just how much Unionism has damaged our people.

SoulandForm wrote: »

The sad thing is that today you can find a much more authentic Ulster Scot's culture in the Appalachian mountains than you can in actual Ulster where they have kept alive older and more complex musical forms. The sad thing also is that I have found Republicans not from Ulster Scot backgrounds who are much more well versed in Ulster Scot history and past culture than the over whelming majority of Unionists. If you go to highlands of Scotland or the Welsh speaking areas of Wales you can see an actually healthy celtic Protestant culture and there you can come to understand just how much Unionism has damaged our people.

I live with them, we are well aware of our history and heritage. Particularly with the festivals and promotion of the music with pipe bands and other activities.

Painted Pony

Charlie Rock wrote: »

The PIRA's aim was to remove the British from the north by force. That's a military objective not a political one.

But in the aftermath of a British removal their plan was to (re)establish the Irish republic proclaimed in 1916. And that clearly was political.

Charlie Rock wrote: »

I'm not sure why you're trying to compare the PIRA campaign with the US invasion of Iraq. You'll remember too, I'm sure, that Iraq didn't attack the US and that there was a conspiracy to fool the public into thinking that Saddam had a 45 minute WMD strike capability.

The bottom line is that the US did not get the necessary mandate from the UN to go in to Iraq in ’03 but did so regardless and this is the basis on which many Irish republicans (reasonably enough) criticise them. That Iraq didn’t attack the US is irrelevant. That was also the case for the first Gulf war where the US were justified in going in. Why? Because then they did have a mandate.

But somehow, the same republicans who see the flagrant disregard for democracy by the US see no issue with their own, pursuing an all Ireland political project whilst totally disregarding the wishes of the people of Ireland.

In the video that S&F posted, Martin McGuinness freely admits that they had failed to persuade the people of the 26 counties, as he likes to call it.

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Yeah but how does the union with Britain serve this? Do you think the lads in Westminster really give a shit whether a bunch of lads with drums and flutes get to march past the Ardoyne shops or not?

You’re right. The British don’t give a toss about them. But neither do we here in the South (nor do nationalists in the North for that matter). Indeed many of us are pretty hostile to them. (I’d tolerate sharing an island with them but draw the line at sharing a state with them!

)

So their choice is not between who doesn’t want them and who does. It is between who doesn’t want them and who really, really doesn’t want them!

Painted Pony wrote: »

You’re right. The British don’t give a toss about them. But neither do we here in the South (nor do nationalists in the North for that matter). Indeed many of us are pretty hostile to them. (I’d tolerate sharing an island with them but draw the line at sharing a state with them! )

So their choice is not between who doesn’t want them and who does. It is between who doesn’t want them and who really, really doesn’t want them!

Depends on how you view giving a toss- the UK establishment wants to maintain a foothold in Ireland as they see it as a back door, historically the UUP (much less so the DUP) have been very useful to the Tories in Westminster. Jack Straw outlined clearly a few reasons why from their point of view Northern Ireland is best for them in the Union. Also say what you want about the Ulster Scots but we have tremendous energy and a certain quirkiness and unpredictability which is just what the south needs. I accept that this is horribly misdirected at the moment.

Painted Pony wrote: »

But in the aftermath of a British removal their plan was to (re)establish the Irish republic proclaimed in 1916. And that clearly was political.

Isn't that just a political aspiration though? I mean it's only an aspiration at the end of the day. I could aspire to having a anarcho-syndicalist workers federation in control of the means of production in Ireland but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

The bottom line is that the US did not get the necessary mandate from the UN to go in to Iraq in ’03 but did so regardless and this is the basis on which many Irish republicans (reasonably enough) criticise them. That Iraq didn’t attack the US is irrelevant. That was also the case for the first Gulf war where the US were justified in going in. Why? Because then they did have a mandate.

You're attributing too much virtue to a mandate. Having a mandate doesn't mean going to war is a just thing to do. Not having a mandate doesn't mean that engaging in conflict is automatically wrong.

But somehow, the same republicans who see the flagrant disregard for democracy by the US see no issue with their own, pursuing an all Ireland political project whilst totally disregarding the wishes of the people of Ireland.

Hmmm... It was the subversion of democracy by Unionists and eventually the massacre of civil rights protesters that energized physical force Republicanism. Democracy and civil rights were attempted and brutally crushed by Unionists and their sectarian militias.

In the video that S&F posted, Martin McGuinness freely admits that they had failed to persuade the people of the 26 counties, as he likes to call it

Haven't watched it yet.

I’d tolerate sharing an island with them but draw the line at sharing a state with them! )

You shouldn't mistake fleggers for the average Unionist. They're not all that different to the rest of us tbh.

So their choice is not between who doesn’t want them and who does. It is between who doesn’t want them and who really, really doesn’t want them!

I honestly think Ireland would have had a less dysfunctional 'youth' if there'd been (former) Unionists sitting in the Dail. I don't think the RCC would have had half the stranglehold over the institutions of the state had this been the case.

Fratton Fred

When are you going to answer my question Charlie?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

When are you going to answer my question Charlie?

Which one?

I've told you before I'm not interested in going on a date with you.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

Fratton Fred

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Which one?

When the IRA bombed those places at peak times, you claimed it was to cause maximum disruption.

I asked, disruption to who?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

When the IRA bombed those places at peak times, you claimed it was to cause maximum disruption.

I asked, disruption to who?

Wrong dude bro.

Painted Pony

Charlie Rock wrote: »

You're attributing too much virtue to a mandate.

For using force? Indeed and I am. Using violence is no trivial matter.

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Having a mandate doesn't mean going to war is a just thing to do.

True. It is necessary but not sufficient.

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Not having a mandate doesn't mean that engaging in conflict is automatically wrong.

Yes it absolutely does. You can of course cite plenty of scenarios where it was either impractical or impossible to formally establish that there was a mandate (apartheid era in SA for example). And you make have to do with anecdotal or subjective judgement to demonstrate that you have the necessary support.

But if it can be demonstrably shown that any group using force do not have the support from the people on whose behalf the force is being used then that it absolutely and automatically is wrong.

It is rarely possible to do this but it was possible in Ireland because in any election during the troubles (when SF did contest them) we could tally the support of the constitutional nationalists parties and the total did, and still does, massively exceed the vote given to those who favoured physical force.

The people of Ireland quite clearly favoured peaceful means to bring about any change in out territory (Sinn Fein have belatedly boarded this train) and did so throughout the troubles. But they were ignored by PIRA.

And even with our goldfish-like political memories, some people still remember this, almost 20 years after they were active (We seem to be already willing to forgive FF after only 2 years!). That must surely tell you something about how much the arrogance of PIRA rankled many people.

Painted Pony wrote: »

It is rarely possible to do this but it was possible in Ireland because in any election during the troubles (when SF did contest them) we could tally the support of the constitutional nationalists parties and the total did, and still does, massively exceed the vote given to those who favoured physical force.

ex post facto

SF didn't really engage in politics substantively until after the Hunger Strikes in the early 1980's and from not long after that I believe they were exploring a political solution to the conflict.

Painted Pony wrote: »

But in the aftermath of a British removal their plan was to (re)establish the Irish republic proclaimed in 1916. And that clearly was political.

The bottom line is that the US did not get the necessary mandate from the UN to go in to Iraq in ’03 but did so regardless and this is the basis on which many Irish republicans (reasonably enough) criticise them. That Iraq didn’t attack the US is irrelevant. That was also the case for the first Gulf war where the US were justified in going in. Why? Because then they did have a mandate.

But somehow, the same republicans who see the flagrant disregard for democracy by the US see no issue with their own, pursuing an all Ireland political project whilst totally disregarding the wishes of the people of Ireland.

In the video that S&F posted, Martin McGuinness freely admits that they had failed to persuade the people of the 26 counties, as he likes to call it.

You’re right. The British don’t give a toss about them. But neither do we here in the South (nor do nationalists in the North for that matter). Indeed many of us are pretty hostile to them. (I’d tolerate sharing an island with them but draw the line at sharing a state with them! )

So their choice is not between who doesn’t want them and who does. It is between who doesn’t want them and who really, really doesn’t want them!

We are a unique people. Just different to other groups on the Island. Including the Native Irish.

Manassas61 wrote: »

Native Irish.

Christ that's depressing. Hundreds of years later and you describe people as 'Native Irish'. What are you? A colonist? An invader?

Manassas61 wrote: »

We are a unique people. Just different to other groups on the Island. Including the Native Irish.

Were Bobby Sands and Francis Hughes "Native Irish"?

Do you understand how dangerous that type of junk is?

Ulster Scots are very Irish- you need to if not travel more make friends from the other side.

Painted Pony

Manassas61 wrote: »

We are a unique people. Just different to other groups on the Island. Including the Native Irish.

Yeah well, sorry but I have no real interest in forging a state, or even a nation, with you.

There is of course nothing so surprising about fairly diverse peoples sharing the same land mass. It is not so usual on a small island like ours but just look at the diversity of nations and states on the landmass of Europe. The borders of European countries have being moved countless times, and almost always as a result of violence or regression. Yet most recognize the futility of trying to undo the wrongs of the past, few would appeal to ancient history and say: “here is where the true border of our country should be, as it was 1,000 years ago”.

But not in Ireland. Half a millennium after the plantation (which unquestionably was wrong) there is still the refusal to accept that this was the end (several centuries before it began!) of any homogeneous all-Ireland nation. But reality is no match for the hardy Irish nationalist. They will continue to insist that an island nation makes perfect sense and try to forge together two peoples who are about as different as any pairing you might select from the peoples of the islands of Britain and Ireland.

Firewalkwithme

BRIAN: Are you the Judean People's Front?

REG: Fu*k off!

BRIAN: What?

REG: Judean People's Front. We're the People's Front of Judea! Judean People's Front. Cawk.

FRANCIS: ****.

BRIAN: Can I... join your group?

REG: No. Piss off.

BRIAN: I didn't want to sell this stuff. It's only a job. I hate the Romans as much as anybody.

PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA: Shhhh. Shhhh. Shhh. Shh. Shhhh.

REG: Stumm.

JUDITH: Are you sure?

BRIAN: Oh, dead sure. I hate the Romans already.

REG: Listen. If you wanted to join the P.F.J., you'd have to really hate the Romans.

BRIAN: I do!

REG: Oh, yeah? How much?

BRIAN: A lot!

REG: Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the ****ing Judean People's Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah...

JUDITH: Splitters.

P.F.J.: Splitters...

FRANCIS: And the Judean Popular People's Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...

LORETTA: And the People's Front of Judea.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...

REG: What?

LORETTA: The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.

REG: We're the People's Front of Judea!

LORETTA: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.

REG: People's Front! C-huh.

FRANCIS: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?

REG: He's over there.

P.F.J.: Splitter!

Painted Pony wrote: »

Yeah well, sorry but I have no real interest in forging a state, or even a nation, with you.

You don't have a mandate - just a personal opinion.

But not in Ireland. Half a millennium after the plantation (which unquestionably was wrong) there is still the refusal to accept that this was the end (several centuries before it began!) of any homogeneous all-Ireland nation.

A 32 county state is not predicated on homogeneity; indeed, it's obvious that it wouldn't be considering that we have a large tranche of people who wouldn't identify as being 'native Irish' (depressingly).

two peoples who are about as different as any pairing you might select from the peoples of the islands of Britain and Ireland.

That's quite wrong. If former goat herders from the mountains of Pakistan can lead fulfilling lives in a modern metropolis like Manchester how mental is it to imagine that former Unionists could be part of a 32 county United Ireland?

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Christ that's depressing. Hundreds of years later and you describe people as 'Native Irish'. What are you? A colonist? An invader?

The people who are descended from Native Irish people. I am not one of them. I won't lie and say I am. Just being honest about it. I am a colonist because that is my ancestory history.

It's how most of us see it except different labels are used.