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Child Item

The NOT TV licence thread

MadsL

RTÉ received €183.6 million in TV Licence revenue in 2011. As a result of an estimated 10%-15% evasion in the licence fee, RTÉ have sucessfully lobbied for a 'poll' tax style system.

Would you support such taxation if such revenue could only be spend on:

1. TV Broadcasts of national importance. Political events, State events and State sports events coverage. NO OTHER TV subsidies and all RTÉ output would be sold off as commercial enterprise.

2. RTÉ would continue to broadcast RTÉ Radio 1, 2, Lyric and RnG.

3. A greater percentage of the fee than present (7%) say 10% would go to the BCI to give production grants for Irish independant film-making and broadcasting.

4. RTÉ Performing groups to be rebranded simply National and funded as before:

• RTÉ National Symphony Orchestra
• RTÉ National Concert Orchestra
• RTÉ National Vanbrugh Quartet
• RTÉ National Philharmonic Choir
• RTÉ Cór na nÓg (National Youth Choir)

5. RTÉ Publishing to continue as now (it is self funded)

6. RTÉ News to produce a free 24 hour Irish news channel and web presence broadcast via web streaming media/iTunes/Roku/SmartTV.

In this format, would you support a Media Tax - if so would €100 a household be acceptable?

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krudler

Agree it should be subscription based, not this nonsense "license" fee. If you want to watch RTE's weekly misery porn, nepotism based programming and game show that isn't really a game show then pay for it.

hansfrei

Shut RTE.Stop all payments to everyone/everything. Lock the gates and flog it off.

DavyD_83

MadYaker wrote: »

Almost.

I doubt there'd be much interest in a 24 hour irish news channel. Though. Does anybody actually watch those? Most of the time there is nothing newsworthy happening so they end up reporting rubbish.

Doesn't this already exist?
It looks kind of like Sky News, but Irish.
No idea of viewership

120_Minutes

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

TV license is on the receiver, not the viewing.
It's like commercial rates or motor tax or car insurance, you still have to pay on the days you aren't using it

Which is my (and many others) fundamental problem with it. It should be on the viewing. there are many thousands of people who dont want to pay for a service they have no interest in making use of.

The powers that be in montrose and on kildare st know full well that if RTE went subscription based then they'd lose viewers by the ****load. I know if RTE disappeared from the airwaves tomorrow it'd be a long time before i'd notice.

darkpagandeath

DavyD_83 wrote: »

Doesn't this already exist?
It looks kind of like Sky News, but Irish.
No idea of viewership

You mean the one that replays the same news every 10 mins and just broadcasts 1pm 6pm 9pm Rte news and Primetime and so on ?

rubadub

Savoir.Faire wrote: »

So you'd suggest they operate strictly using advertising revenue. What would be onus on them to produce things like Nationwide, The Documentary on One radio series, Art Lives and so forth?

Most against it seem to think it should be should be subscription, not just going off ads, so there would be an onus on them to keep their subscribers happy. Right now they can do what they want, if you legally had to subscribe to netflix if you owned a PC I doubt they would have bothered paying for breaking bad, they would scrape by laughing at the subscribers, just like RTE.

Respondents were asked what level of monthly fee they would be prepared to pay to receive RTÉ if subscription access were hypothetically to replace the licence fee: the annualised mean and median household figures were €180 and €252.60, compared to the then licence fee of €150, with those who frequently watched RTE programs most willing to pay

darkpagandeath

was this mid boom or after the crash ?

Siobhan78

RTE deserve nothing

UCDVet

1.) Move all of RTE's services to a subscription model. Businesses all over the world do it effectively.
2.) Let anyone who wants RTE, pay for RTE.

That would solve all of my problems with RTE. I'd never complain about the salaries of RTE employees - they'd be paid whatever they can get, fair play to them. They wouldn't be forcing anyone to pay.

That would mean that, by not doing anything, people aren't turned into criminals. If you don't want RTE, you don't get it. No more finger-pointing at 'scumbaggers' who don't pay their license. No more threatening letters. No more 'TV Inspectors'

That would also mean a much, much, much lower rate of 'theft' - people stealing RTE content would have to actively do it and it takes more work and more effort.

The *only* reason for RTE not to go to the subscription model is if you believe that RTE is 'worth' what it costs to keep it running and you'd rather 'someone else' be forced to pay. That's it. From what I've seen here, a lot of RTE supporters really enjoy it and would be willing to pay to support it. So, why not? The added benefit is that they'd get some level of accountability, it would give customers more power. Win-win-win.

MadsL

ScumLord wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought anyone was coming to Ireland for the modern arts. Tourists come to Ireland to see beautiful scenery, drink a pint of guinness and see some ancient stuff in museums. Anyone in those upper classes that go to the likes of opera or orchestras aren't longing to go to Ireland to listen to some small Island orchestra to try and do it like the big boys on the continent.

Irelands art scene is pretty flaccid because you've nowhere to progress too, if your cutting edge enough to be a global success you'll scare RTE away, so you'll have to leave for a country that can appreciate your work. What's happening now in Ireland is content production, it's just making art for sale rather than an artist expressing themselves.

Are you kidding? Wexford Opera Festival is a world-class event, it is one of the top Opera festivals of the world.

Louth Contemporary Music Society have world famous living composers attending regularly, and RTE used, repeat, used to have a self sustaining, sell-out Living Music Festival that attracted many overseas tourists.

Irish festivals attracted 500,000 visitors in 2011.

Thoie

I'd prefer that no matter what price it goes for, each individual could specify what percentage they want to go towards which piece - a bit like the humble bundle idea. Maybe have a set small percentage carved out for admin, like BAI, BCI, but you could decide 0% for RTE One, 0% for RTE Two, 20% for Radio One, etc.

If everyone is deciding what percentage goes to each channel, only the most popular will survive. Maybe the heads of the two who come in last could have a death match in Stephen's Green on New Year's Eve.

uncle_sam_ie

MadsL wrote: »

The problem is that currently the law abiding are subsidising those leeching. The "I don't have a TV argument" doesn't stand up when people end up watching on line anyway.

:rolleyes:
So put a paywall on the site if that's the case.

shruikan2553

Here's an idea I just came up with. Have 3 different licences, 2 for 100 each, 1 gives you log in details for RTE player if you dont have a TV , 1 doesnt and covers you for having a TV. Keep the current 160 licence that covers both. This way all the "scroungers" with a love of ear to the ground, fair city and eastenders will have to at least pay something.

MadsL

Thoie wrote: »

I'd prefer that no matter what price it goes for, each individual could specify what percentage they want to go towards which piece - a bit like the humble bundle idea. Maybe have a set small percentage carved out for admin, like BAI, BCI, but you could decide 0% for RTE One, 0% for RTE Two, 20% for Radio One, etc.

If everyone is deciding what percentage goes to each channel, only the most popular will survive. Maybe the heads of the two who come in last could have a death match in Stephen's Green on New Year's Eve.

Popular culture wins out over minority culture. Lowest common denominator?
X factor culture?

No thanks.

clairefontaine

MadsL wrote: »

You have no support for Irish independent film productions like Intermission, Once, Adam & Paul, Agnes Brown, Breakfast on Pluto and the like??

Could you specify if I should insert an F for these acclaimed films?

What has this got to do with a broadcasting charge?

Film production gets its revenue from private sources and sometimes art councils. And also ticket, download, and broadcast sales.

Eight Ball

RTE should be shut down asap. It serves no good but to work as a mouthpiece for the state and tell us what to buy. Look at the disgusting way they pushed property porn shows during the so called boom. I don't pay the licence fee and haven't since we moved in here several years ago. Public service broadcaster my arse.

Capt'n Midnight

UCDVet wrote: »

1.) Move all of RTE's services to a subscription model. Businesses all over the world do it effectively.
2.) Let anyone who wants RTE, pay for RTE.

RTE would have no problem competing with US TV.
But the commercial reality is that RTE is competing with the BBC / ITN / C4 / [US imports on other UK channels] which can be watched here on FTA / cable / sky, but in the US would be subscription only.

The BBC is subsidised by a license fee of £145.50 (€173) so the others have to up their game to compete.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/aboutthebbc/insidethebbc/whoweare/licencefee/

RTE Relays was setup in 1969 to distribute UK television on cable. RTE 2 was setup to show UK and US imports to people who couldn't get cable. Even if you roll the clock back to the 1950's most people with TV's in this country have been getting UK TV. ( Band I propagation and deflectors and all that)
http://www.iolfree.ie/~icdg/ntl_ireland.htm

People in the UK don't like paying for the TV license either. Here we used to have people refusing to pay because there was no Irish channel ( in the days before TG4). AFAIK no one has stood up in court in the UK to complain that they were subsidising us.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/10256679/TV-licence-offences-account-for-one-in-ten-UK-court-cases.html

TV licence offences account for one in ten UK court cases
The BBC was responsible for more than one in ten criminal prosecutions last year as the number of people taken to court for non payment of their television licence reached a new high.

Yeah the license sucks - but we only get UK TV free because it costs more to encrypt / decrypt it than to pay for the rights. Had the Ka band been available earlier we might not have got it. Have a look at any UK ex-pats forum for the continued panic over loosing SKY in south of France.

Yeah it should be bundled on to the ESB - BUT ONLY if means a reduction to take into account the AnPost collection fee and Evasion rates. Or it should just be bundled into income tax because it is a tax.

Yes RTE needs a lot of fat trimmed. I'd nearly hand RTE 2 over to TG4 (but keep the imports budget) to give them a massive wake up call.

It's a real pity that RTE didn't bankrupt Cooper-Flynn or that we have nothing like Hall's Pictorial Weekly or Scrap Saturday anymore - public service and very popular.

TheDoc

I disagree with the TV license, a media tax, and anything else that involves me paying money to fund RTE. They run advertisements and generate financial income through that means. I'm sorry but if that is not enough to fund what a national broadcaster should be, that is their problem, not mine.

I see no purpose in why I should pay any sort of tax that would filter to RTE, when I avail of pretty much zero of their services.

The problem with RTE is they are trying to act like a big money national broadcaster. Big names, big stars, trying to make big shows. All over inflated based on the extra revenue from the TV license. If RTE were forced to operate on their TV license revenue and state funding only, withdrawing their advertisement revenue, it would be folded within a few months.

There is no creativity there, and there is no drive or innovation to bother. Why would they, they are a state owned broadcaster. They get a stable, fixed income of revenue each year from the tax payer. As for a media tax, to help promote what, irish "creative" individuals to make stuff? No thanks. there is a pretty good system in use for a pretty long time for this, it's called investors. If you have an idea and you pitch it, if it's not trash, someone will back you up with cash to get it completed. I in no way or form want to be having my tax money going to "creative" individuals having a punt on rubbish.

If I don't have a car, I don't pay roadtax. If I don't have a house, I don't pay a house tax. If I don't watch or utilise RTE, I shouldn't pay a tax to them.

Capt'n Midnight

TheDoc wrote: »

The problem with RTE is they are trying to act like a big money national broadcaster. Big names, big stars, trying to make big shows. All over inflated based on the extra revenue from the TV license. If RTE were forced to operate on their TV license revenue and state funding only, withdrawing their advertisement revenue, it would be folded within a few months.
....
If I don't have a car, I don't pay roadtax. If I don't have a house, I don't pay a house tax. If I don't watch or utilise RTE, I shouldn't pay a tax to them.

RTE need to realise they aren't in the big league and they are like a BBC or ITN region and the wages of the top performers need to match. A lot of Irish talent in broadcasting and soccer has gone to the UK because it's a much bigger market even before you consider the exports.

Now it's not roadtax it's motortax. The tax is for the ability to use a motor vehicle on public roads. You pay for it indirectly when you use any road based service like public transport or use goods transported by road.

The tax is for the right to own a television receiver. The funds go into TV only because it's such an unpopular tax that even more people would refuse to pay if it went into central funds. ( in the past only half of motor tax was spent on roads )

If you rent then part of your rent goes to the Household Charge etc.

Ush1

MadsL wrote: »

The problem is that currently the law abiding are subsidising those leeching. The "I don't have a TV argument" doesn't stand up when people end up watching on line anyway.

Selling off RTE manages the objection about silly salaries, whilst retaining some good radio talent.

Surely each household should contribute to a National Arts output as described above?

There is ways to block people watching online also.

What good radio talent? Again, it doesn't matter what banner you call it, I don't want to pay inflated wages but something I don't avail of. I don't listen to RTE radio or their presenters.

You can contribute to the arts but why should you have to? It's not an essential service.

Also, I can assure you, however bad RTE is now and how many people don't watch it, it will be even less popular if it had things of "state only interest" to broadcast.

MadsL

Ush1 wrote: »

What good radio talent? Again, it doesn't matter what banner you call it, I don't want to pay inflated wages but something I don't avail of. I don't listen to RTE radio or their presenters.

Not a lot of point me talking about RTE Radio shows that have won international awards like Bernard Clarke's Nova on Lyric FM then if you never listen.

I guess I could point out what you are missing but as the 'arts' are not essential then there is no point. I'd hate to live in a world without 'the arts' but I guess that is just me. Sports and drinking is enough to live on do you think?

Ush1

MadsL wrote: »

Not a lot of point me talking about RTE Radio shows that have won international awards like Bernard Clarke's Nova on Lyric FM then if you never listen.

Great, what's talking about it got to do with forcing it on people. I like the Nightmare on Elm Street movies so everyone should have to pay to have the option of watching them. Sure they've won special effects awards.

MadsL wrote: »

I guess I could point out what you are missing but as the 'arts' are not essential then there is no point. I'd hate to live in a world without 'the arts' but I guess that is just me. Sports and drinking is enough to live on do you think?

I never said I didn't personally like some facets of art, I said the arts are not an essential service.

My name is URL

• National Symphony Orchestra
• National Concert Orchestra
• National Vanbrugh Quartet
• National Philharmonic Choir
• Cór na nÓg (National Youth Choir)

I don't get why any of those should be publicly funded tbh, but I'm willing to accept that there's no harm in having a national orchestra.

The others can piss right off as far as I'm concerned.. and not because I don't appreciate 'the arts' before someone calls me a troglodyte. Why should they be funded by the tax-payer when only a very very small minority of people ever attend their concerts or otherwise listen to them? If they're going to be funded by the public then why not a publicly funded electronica band, or a classic riock group funded by the taxpayer?!

Mike 1972

Isint funding arts what the lottery is supposed to be for ?

Mind you the way some people go on about art culture and wotnot on these threads one would think such programming comprise the bulk of RTEs output !

MadsL

My name is URL wrote: »

I don't get why any of those should be publicly funded tbh, but I'm willing to accept that there's no harm in having a national orchestra.

The others can piss right off as far as I'm concerned.. and not because I don't appreciate 'the arts' before someone calls me a troglodyte. Why should they be funded by the tax-payer when only a very very small minority of people ever attend their concerts or otherwise listen to them? If they're going to be funded by the public then why not a publicly funded electronica band, or a classic riock group funded by the taxpayer?!

262,750 people attended an RTE performing groups event last year. That's not a very very small minority, that's the equivalent of nearly nine Electric Picnics, or almost 5% of the population actually going to hear a performance. All Friday night RTE Orchestra performances are broadcast on RTE Lyric so you have an additional audience around the country for that broadcast.

Arts funding does go to electronica, generally of the experimental variety.

The question of why give public funding to Orchestras? In order to give reasonable access to the arts and make it affordable. You can hear the RTE NSO on a Friday night for as little as €9. Public funding makes that possible - otherwise you would be looking at ticket prices more in the €50 - €100 range.

What that means is that someone on the dole has the same opportunity to hear live classical music as someone on 100k a year. It means schoolchildren have the opportunity to hear a live orchestra once in their lives (The Irish Times/RTÉ Music in the Classroom concerts reached over 27,000 young people in 2012.). It means that classical music can be heard in Ireland, and not having to travel to London. It means that world premieres of Irish composers work can be heard in their native land.

RTE Performing Groups is incredible value in my opinion.

DesperateDan

Yay live Orchestra, well worth the licence fee

It's difficult because the most vocal despise RTE and generally all of the content they produce. But it's all subjective, and no one can compare anything they produce to the what the BBC do (in fact for such a small island I think RTE are already punching above their weight).

The answer is for literally everyone to stop listening to and watching any license funded content for good, then it would probably die, right!?

But unfortunately last I checked RTE 1 is the most watched station in the country, and a phenomenal amount of people watch the late late...

_Kaiser_

I don't listen to RTE Radio, don't watch TG4 and only occasionally watch RTE 1 or 2 (eg: for the referendum debate the other night or maybe a football match) - truth be told most nights the TV here is off or is set to my WDTV box.

I don't go to the opera/listen to the orchestra or whatever else the license fee funds and I don't use the RTE site or player. My news comes from places like Newstalk, the Journal, BBC and even Boards

I could very easily live without RTE's "contribution" to all these things. I already pay VAT on my broadband/TV subscription so no, I don't and wouldn't support this tax at all - it's just yet ANOTHER way of making the Irish pay twice for the same thing!

rubadub

MadsL wrote: »

The question of why give public funding to Orchestras? In order to give reasonable access to the arts and make it affordable. You can hear the RTE NSO on a Friday night for as little as €9. Public funding makes that possible - otherwise you would be looking at ticket prices more in the €50 - €100 range.

What that means is that someone on the dole has the same opportunity to hear live classical music as someone on 100k a year.

I reckon most people on the dole would prefer a discount on their electric picnic ticket from the government. The only people I know who go to the concert hall are my parents, uncles & aunts and their friends. All of them can well afford it and are often laughing at how cheap it is and have said it is not right. Always talk of them meeting in the conrad for dinner beforehand etc, plenty of spare money left over after all the people who might be only watching subscription TV have chipped in for what should have been an expensive ticket.

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/this-is-exactly-how-your-tv-licence-fee-is-used-542836-Aug2012/

Here’s the exact breakdown:
RTÉ One – €58.01
RTÉ Two – €31.21
RTÉ Radio One – €13.40
RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta – €8.33
RTÉ Lyric FM – €4.79
RTÉ Performing Groups – €9.26
RTÉ Support for TG4 – €6.39
Broadcasting Authority of Ireland levy – €1.75
TG4 Deduction – €6.71
BCI Sound and Vision fund – €10.53
Collection Costs from An Post/Communications and Social Protection Departments – €9.62

I would rather have the €9.26 discount than subsidise the concert hall goers. From what you are saying they are in effect subsidised up to €91 for just one concert, I would love to get a government issued voucher for €91 off my concert tickets, I would consider it totally unfair though, just as I know some concert hall goers do.

rubadub

DesperateDan wrote: »

The answer is for literally everyone to stop listening to and watching any license funded content for good, then it would probably die, right!?

But unfortunately last I checked RTE 1 is the most watched station in the country, and a phenomenal amount of people watch the late late...

Viewing figures never impress me, when a service is forced upon you the use of it is no real sign of people being pleased with it, or particularly wanting it. During the late late show timeslot if they showed a dog running around a garden it would pull in massive figures, and so lots of advertising revenue, so they can then use this to justify a ludicrous wage for that dog, when any old dog could do it. Instead they keep the same old dog and run him into the ground till he's almost dead, on ludicrous wages.

People have spent the €13.30 per month on the licence fee and might not have spare cash for what they would have otherwise have gotten, e.g. a €7 per month subscription to netflix. I have no netflix sub, if RTE was a subscription service I would have taken netflix instead. Since RTE is forced upon me I have enough TV to make me not bother with netflix, as I would not get full use of it, I would watch some RTE stuff instead, just make do with it, netflix is not as good value as I already have a service.

I likened it to a cooker licence before, if you have a cooker you must buy a licence, the government will employ overpaid poor quality chefs, and deliver food to your door each day (and to your holiday home too) these chefs will get massive salary increases each year since figures show people eat the food, so they must like it. The food is delivered to your door each day, don't like it, tough, bin it, just like unwatched TV. Many would hate to see food go to waste or cannot afford an alternative, so they make do and eat it, doesn't mean they like it, but they would twist figures to make it appear people must love it, and would hate if they changed chef. Behind the scenes you will have helpers for the chefs, one just just putting on salt, another just putting on pepper, probably overqualified with years of chef training, or chemistry training, just like many weather people and news announcers are overqualified and overpaid.

Another would be a government newspaper, if they took over the irish times then sales for other papers would plummet, and use faulty logic that people must love it. People make do with what they are given or forced upon them, when the free metro papers first appeared I noticed far less other papers being bought in work.

MadsL

rubadub wrote: »

I reckon most people on the dole would prefer a discount on their electric picnic ticket from the government. The only people I know who go to the concert hall are my parents, uncles & aunts and their friends. All of them can well afford it and are often laughing at how cheap it is and have said it is not right. Always talk of them meeting in the conrad for dinner beforehand etc, plenty of spare money left over after all the people who might be only watching subscription TV have chipped in for what should have been an expensive ticket.

Equally I often meet students at the concert hall who would not be able to afford to attend if there was not a subsidy.

I would rather have the €9.26 discount than subsidise the concert hall goers. From what you are saying they are in effect subsidised up to €91 for just one concert, I would love to get a government issued voucher for €91 off my concert tickets, I would consider it totally unfair though, just as I know some concert hall goers do.

If your concert tickets were to go and hear an artist who makes as little as a 2nd violin orchestra member makes a year, then I would agree with you. If you are complaining about ticket prices then you would do well to consider what the artist and promoter are making out of the gig. Your issue is not to do with how the licence fee is spent, but how we reward those who supply our entertainment.

I also doubt very much that you have never attended a gig/event/show/film that hasn't in some way been supported by some kind of Government money.

€9.26 is incredible value.