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Unhelpful 'gendering' of social issues

Amirani

Apparently all us men are at fault that rape still exists: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/telling-women-to-be-careful-gets-men-off-the-hook-1.1536337

"men must accept that most violent crimes perpetrated against women are by men, and that they have the power to stop this."

I'm sorry Una, but I'm in no better a position to stop rape than you are. I'm also no more responsible for its existence.

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The Corinthian

SeventySix wrote: »

Was there any way that she could have targeted the article towards men doing something to prevent sexual violence without being labeled a bigot, do you think?

Not labelling all men as either rapists or accessories to rape would have been a good start - you do realize the seriousness of such a statement? All gypsies are criminals is apparently unacceptable, yet all men being criminals (as perpetrators or accessories) is?

I am not being sarky, genuinely want to know.She is asking something of men, that the men here it seems dont want to be asked to do, that it seems they dont feel they should have to do. Is that a fair assertion?

No, she was asking something of only men. Apparently she didn't feel that women should have to do what she asked of men. Or that men don't have female friends. Not sure which is more stupid a presumption.

Is it fair to say that men with little respect for women, probably dont have many close women friends?

No, it would be pure speculation to say that. Indeed, strong relationships with members of the opposite sex are often instrumental in loss of respect for that sex.

I'm sorry, but there's really no way one could rationally defend that editorial or its author. It's more believable that the whole thing was a hoax, written to be so over the top than one could not take it seriously.

SeventySix

mariaalice wrote: »

I think you might be missing the point that some men are making I.e why ask men ALONE to do something about sexual violence.

Not men alone, but men in particular. Do you see the difference? I do see that it might be necessary as women probably dont have the same influence with men that already dont respect women. Can you see that?

Also women are already asked to do things by society to mitagate risk, in how the dress, where they go, how they act, what they drink etc.

[Deleted User]

SeventySix wrote: »

No, of course not. But could it be possible that a young man that hasnt raped but has been openly dismissive of women, is agressive towards them in nightclubs with out having actually steped fully over the line, could be influenced toward having abetter attitude by his peers. Is it possible that this prevents a rape in 10 years?

I know I seem to be defending her, which is not really my intention. But I do defend the principal that all the reasonable decent men out there are not entired powerless to try and intervene when one of their associates is getting out of line.

That was kinda my point about my husband not engaging with jokes that put women down both men and women tell those kind of jokes by the way.
I think you are a little naïve in thinking that the influence of friends is going to change behaviour to that extent, particularly sexually violent behaviour.

With a young teen friends might influence other criminal behaviour such as petty theft but sexual behaviour is different.

donfers

SeventySix wrote: »

Jesus, are you being deliberately obtuse?

One of your friends is striking out with women all over the place in a nightclub, getting drunk and frustrated and angry, calling them all bitches and sluts, grabbing girls arms as they walk by. In that case, could you see a possiblity that you might step in, tell him to chill out, be a bit more respectful, that how he is acting is not acceptable.

I am not being obtuse at all, she is, none of my family or friends behave like that and I resent the fact that both you and she seem to be implying that they do

Amirani

SeventySix wrote: »

Was there any way that she could have targeted the article towards men doing something to prevent sexual violence without being labeled a bigot, do you think?

I am not being sarky, genuinely want to know.She is asking something of men, that the men here it seems dont want to be asked to do, that it seems they dont feel they should have to do. Is that a fair assertion?

She could have been less inflammatory in her language and cut out some of the generalisations - "men who go to strip clubs are exhibiting rapist like qualities and all men know someone like this'.

However, directing it purely at men was always going to raise questions of bigotry.

I don't have any more responsibility to "prevent" rape than any woman does. I of course would do what I can to prevent it (as I would with any crime), but there's no special onus on me to do it purely because I have a set of genitalia that's common amongst most rapists.

Is it fair to say that men with little respect for women, probably dont have many close women friends? That the influence of women in that case probably wont mean much to someone that already has a bad attitude.

I'm not sure that's the case. I've encountered many men who are quite close to female friends despite having a fairly sexist and misogynistic view towards them. That's not even including familial or sexual relationships.

um7y1h83ge06nx

One thing none of us have considering is that she is professionally trolling. Maybe she just wanted to write a very abrasive, controversial article in order to boost her profile.

Still doesn't excuse the article, but might explain why the article and her tweets are so over the top.

SeventySix

donfers wrote: »

I am not being obtuse at all, she is, none of my family or friends behave like that and I resent the fact that both you and she seem to be implying that they do

You seem to be determined to take what she said personally.

If someone said
'People, tell your female friends not to engage in risky behaviour' would you assume that they are saying that all the female friends of all the people in the world are purposely placing themselves in danger?

SeventySix

NiallSparky wrote: »

She could have been less inflammatory in her language and cut out some of the generalisations - "men who go to strip clubs are exhibiting rapist like qualities and all men know someone like this'.

However, directing it purely at men was always going to raise questions of bigotry.

I don't have any more responsibility to "prevent" rape than any woman does. I of course would do what I can to prevent it (as I would with any crime), but there's no special onus on me to do it purely because I have a set of genitalia that's common amongst most rapists.

You dont have any more responsiblity, but would you say you have any? And while it seems to be accepted in society that women in particular have the responsibitily to dress conservatively, not get too drunk etc to try and prevent rape, that men would have a responsibitly, in particular to try exert a positive influence of any male aquaintences that are acting out of line.

NiallSparky wrote: »

I'm not sure that's the case. I've encountered many men who are quite close to female friends despite having a fairly sexist and misogynistic view towards them. That's not even including familial or sexual relationships.

And do you think that these sexist and misogynistic men would listen if one of these women told them they were out of line. And would they maybe take more notice of a male friend that they do respect.

Amirani

Nathanael Jolly Barmaid wrote: »

One thing none of us have considering is that she is professionally trolling. Maybe she just wanted to write a very abrasive, controversial article in order to boost her profile.

Still doesn't excuse the article, but might explain why the article and her tweets are so over the top.

I don't think that's the case. I completely understand where she's coming from and I reckon her intentions are fairly genuine. However, a lot of her piece is pretty offensive to men and is pretty unacceptable in that sense, regardless of whether it was accidental or otherwise.

The Corinthian

SeventySix wrote: »

You seem to be determined to take what she said personally.

Why wouldn't he take what she said personally? It was incredibly sexist and demeaning twoards men, bordering on hate propaganda. There was no misunderstanding either; this wasn't some illiterate blog, this was a national newspaper where articles are vetted prior to publication.

You've played apologist and suggested different reasons and interpretations for what she wrote. Fair enough.

Problem is, they've all been rebutted and reasons have been given for those rebuttals. So what now? Still maintain she did nothing wrong?

Wendolene

Nathanael Jolly Barmaid wrote: »

One thing none of us have considering is that she is professionally trolling. Maybe she just wanted to write a very abrasive, controversial article in order to boost her profile.

Still doesn't excuse the article, but might explain why the article and her tweets are so over the top.

It did occur to me that she may be trawling for an op-ed role with the Daily Mail, or some other journalistic denizen of whack-jobbery. It's just the type of OTT, troll-laden and unbalanced drivel that the DM specialises in.

So, maybe she's just job hunting ... but, dear God, that was dreadful muck altogether.

And I'm very uncomfortable giving her the oxygen of publicity as a result.

The Corinthian

SeventySix wrote: »

And do you think that these sexist and misogynistic men would listen if one of these women told them they were out of line. And would they maybe take more notice of a male friend that they do respect.

Yes, those women are powerless victims too...

And only sexist and misogynistic men rape... had it occurred to you that something like sociopathy is likely a far greater determinant than misogyny where it comes to such violent crime, or does everything have to have a political dimension?

Amirani

SeventySix wrote: »

You dont have any more responsiblity, but would you say you have any? And while it seems to be accepted in society that women in particular have the responsibitily to dress conservatively, not get too drunk etc to try and prevent rape, that men would have a responsibitly, in particular to try exert a positive influence of any male aquaintences that are acting out of line.

I don't accept whatsoever that women have a responsibility to dress conservatively and not get too drunk. They should be absolutely be allowed to do these things if they wish.

I don't have any real responsibility to exert a positive influence on male acquaintances of mine. As I said before, I have done and will continue to do so if necessary. This is just based on my own ethical principles though.

And do you think that these sexist and misogynistic men would listen if one of these women told them they were out of line. And would they maybe take more notice of a male friend that they do respect.

Honestly, I don't think so. There's very little talking to these tools. To paraphrase Frank, it's akin to trying to convince a religious extremist.

[Deleted User]

Men with sexist or misogynistic view of women don't always turn in to a rapist, men can have close women friend and still have terrible views of woman I have seen this.

SeventySix

The Corinthian wrote: »

Why wouldn't he take what she said personally? It was incredibly sexist and demeaning twoards men, bordering on hate propaganda. There was no misunderstanding either; this wasn't some illiterate blog, this was a national newspaper where articles are vetted prior to publication.

You've played apologist and suggested different reasons and interpretations for what she wrote. Fair enough.

He said that
"on her twitter feed she says she is encouraging men to tell their male friends and male family members not to be abusive to women"

From this he took that she is saying that all his family members and friends are rapists. Is that reasonable? In this case I wasnt replying about the article but about this tweet specifically.

To use an example. If i said to you - tell your female friends and female family members not to be abusive to men - am i insulting your mother? As i would feel I was making a general point.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Problem is, they've all been rebutted and reasons have been given for those rebuttals. So what now? Still maintain she did nothing wrong?

Please show me where I maintained she did nothing wrong.

Carlos Orange

SeventySix wrote: »

Is it possible that this prevents a rape in 10 years?

About as possible as the article meaning more rapes happen.

SeventySix

The Corinthian wrote: »

Yes, those women are powerless victims too...

And only sexist and misogynistic men rape... had it occurred to you that something like sociopathy is likely a far greater determinant than misogyny where it comes to such violent crime, or does everything have to have a political dimension?

Where did I say or even imply they are victims? I didnt. You are either misunderstanding or willfully misinterpreting.

The Corinthian

SeventySix wrote: »

Please show me where I maintained she did nothing wrong.

Apologies, so where it comes to accusations of sexism and misandry being made now, through what she wrote in her article, you're in agreement that she did do wrong - because that's what we're talking about.

The Corinthian

SeventySix wrote: »

Where did I say or even imply they are victims? I didnt. You are either misunderstanding or willfully misinterpreting.

Well they're apparently powerless in the face of these penis-wielding oppressors, who have no respect for them. Clearly they're victims.

The Corinthian

mariaalice wrote: »

Men with sexist or misogynistic view of women don't always turn in to a rapist

And a rapist need not be a misogynist to commit rape; simply have little regard for any person and a sexual attraction to women.

Breaking News: In a follow up on the Ferns Report, it's been concluded that the widespread sexual abuse of boys in Catholic run schools was due to deep rooted and institutionalised misandry...

:rolleyes:

simonmln

She sure has got some exposure from this...

[Deleted User]

Have a look at the wiki on the causes of sexual violence, Its very good and really demonstrates the silliness of the ideas that you can influence some not to rape.

SeventySix

The Corinthian wrote: »

Well they're apparently powerless in the face of these penis-wielding oppressors, who have no respect for them. Clearly they're victims.

I suggested that men that someone else called misoganist and sexist might not listen to there female friends.

How is that my saying they are victims? Please explain that to me. Victims of what?

SeventySix

mariaalice wrote: »

Have a look at the wiki on the causes of sexual violence, Its very good and really demonstrates the silliness of the ideas that you can influence some not to rape.

I am not saying its not to rape, I am staying that maybe with early intervention by a man that they respect might help them not get to a point where that is even a possiblity. Surely you can see what I mean? Or are rapists born that way?

iptba

mariaalice wrote: »

Men with sexist or misogynistic view of women don't always turn in to a rapist, men can have close women friend and still have terrible views of woman I have seen this.

Similarly, a woman can have a close male friend and still have terrible views of men.

donfers

SeventySix wrote: »

He said that
"on her twitter feed she says she is encouraging men to tell their male friends and male family members not to be abusive to women"

From this he took that she is saying that all his family members and friends are rapists. Is that reasonable? In this case I wasnt replying about the article but about this tweet specifically.

To use an example. If i said to you - tell your female friends and female family members not to be abusive to men - am i insulting your mother? As i would feel I was making a general point.

Thanks for telling me what I took from it, but would it be reasonable to suggest that I know best what I took from it or does your dogma stretch to deeming yourself able to peer inside the minds of others.

I didn't think take from what she said that all my family and friends or rapists, what I took from it was the implied suggestion that it was a possibility and that I should take action to ensure otherwise which is preposterous.

Any man or woman is capable of anything, it is not my duty, obligation or responsibility to second-guess what goes in the darkest recesses of the minds of those around me.

I can only act on evidence, if I see, hear or witness anything dodgy then I will intervene but to suggest some kind of pre-emptive intervention just on the basis that somebody is male is blatantly sexist and as crackpot an idea as thinking you know the mind of another better than they do

um7y1h83ge06nx

If she is genuine this whole thing has back-fired on her.

If a person wants other people to help them fight a cause they should encourage those people, not insult them. By insulting a large section of society she has destroyed any intelligent message she have to express.

I'm sure most men that read that article thought, like us here, how insulting, sexist and silly the article is. The whole topic of rape has gotten lost through all that noise.

Still, if she or the editor had thought about the article they would have possibly noticed that before it got published.

SeventySix

The Corinthian wrote: »

Apologies, so where it comes to accusations of sexism and misandry being made now, through what she wrote in her article, you're in agreement that she did do wrong - because that's what we're talking about.

She definitely was extreme and inflamatory and gives the impression that she holds all men responsible for what some men do. I never ever said that wasnt true so dont put that on me.

My point is that I dont think there is anything inherently sexist or unreasonable in asking that men be aware that their friends might be getting a little out of line and exert some influence if they can.

That is my whole point. Some people on her seem to be taking offence that I am even suggesting such a thing. Am I? And if so, why?

iptba

It has been suggested that feminism should not be brought in to it.

However, I think feminism, or some forms of it, can (i) bring about a negative view of men and (ii) make it more acceptable for negative attitudes about men to be said publicly.

I think there's a good chance such an article wouldn't have been published without the influence of feminism on her personally and on the editor or editors involved who agreed to publish it.

Over the years, society has gradually been inured to negative things being said about men and bad things being blamed on men: indeed, feminism has at its basis a blame on patriarchy for problems. Patriarchy is very much associated with men, men's power and influence, etc. In other words, it could be said feminism blames men for society's problems.

Potatoeman

SeventySix wrote: »

I am not saying its not to rape, I am staying that maybe with early intervention by a man that they respect might help them not get to a point where that is even a possiblity. Surely you can see what I mean? Or are rapists born that way?

Some people are just assh*les and thats not going to change. Its not safe for a guy to wander around some areas at night either. Self defense and awareness of surroundings is important.