nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Unhelpful 'gendering' of social issues

Amirani

Apparently all us men are at fault that rape still exists: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/telling-women-to-be-careful-gets-men-off-the-hook-1.1536337

"men must accept that most violent crimes perpetrated against women are by men, and that they have the power to stop this."

I'm sorry Una, but I'm in no better a position to stop rape than you are. I'm also no more responsible for its existence.

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

donfers

SeventySix wrote: »

Jesus, are you being deliberately obtuse?

One of your friends is striking out with women all over the place in a nightclub, getting drunk and frustrated and angry, calling them all bitches and sluts, grabbing girls arms as they walk by. In that case, could you see a possiblity that you might step in, tell him to chill out, be a bit more respectful, that how he is acting is not acceptable.

I am not being obtuse at all, she is, none of my family or friends behave like that and I resent the fact that both you and she seem to be implying that they do

[Deleted User]

SeventySix wrote: »

No, of course not. But could it be possible that a young man that hasnt raped but has been openly dismissive of women, is agressive towards them in nightclubs with out having actually steped fully over the line, could be influenced toward having abetter attitude by his peers. Is it possible that this prevents a rape in 10 years?

I know I seem to be defending her, which is not really my intention. But I do defend the principal that all the reasonable decent men out there are not entired powerless to try and intervene when one of their associates is getting out of line.

That was kinda my point about my husband not engaging with jokes that put women down both men and women tell those kind of jokes by the way.
I think you are a little naïve in thinking that the influence of friends is going to change behaviour to that extent, particularly sexually violent behaviour.

With a young teen friends might influence other criminal behaviour such as petty theft but sexual behaviour is different.

SeventySix

mariaalice wrote: »

I think you might be missing the point that some men are making I.e why ask men ALONE to do something about sexual violence.

Not men alone, but men in particular. Do you see the difference? I do see that it might be necessary as women probably dont have the same influence with men that already dont respect women. Can you see that?

Also women are already asked to do things by society to mitagate risk, in how the dress, where they go, how they act, what they drink etc.

The Corinthian

SeventySix wrote: »

Was there any way that she could have targeted the article towards men doing something to prevent sexual violence without being labeled a bigot, do you think?

Not labelling all men as either rapists or accessories to rape would have been a good start - you do realize the seriousness of such a statement? All gypsies are criminals is apparently unacceptable, yet all men being criminals (as perpetrators or accessories) is?

I am not being sarky, genuinely want to know.She is asking something of men, that the men here it seems dont want to be asked to do, that it seems they dont feel they should have to do. Is that a fair assertion?

No, she was asking something of only men. Apparently she didn't feel that women should have to do what she asked of men. Or that men don't have female friends. Not sure which is more stupid a presumption.

Is it fair to say that men with little respect for women, probably dont have many close women friends?

No, it would be pure speculation to say that. Indeed, strong relationships with members of the opposite sex are often instrumental in loss of respect for that sex.

I'm sorry, but there's really no way one could rationally defend that editorial or its author. It's more believable that the whole thing was a hoax, written to be so over the top than one could not take it seriously.

um7y1h83ge06nx

donfers wrote: »

on her twitter feed she says she is encouraging men to tell their male friends and male family members not to be abusive to women and she doesn't even realise how insane that sounds

"Hi Dad, listen I read an article tonight and it had a real effect on me, I am going to have to ask you not to rape or beat up any women ok"

Jesus, I'd say that's really going to work. The criminals won't give a sh*t and all the other men, the vast majority I will add, will be highly insulted that their friend or family member thinks they could be a wife beater or a rapist. :rolleyes:

SeventySix

donfers wrote: »

on her twitter feed she says she is encouraging men to tell their male friends and male family members not to be abusive to women and she doesn't even realise how insane that sounds

"Hi Dad, listen I read an article tonight and it had a real effect on me, I am going to have to ask you not to rape or beat up any women ok"

Jesus, are you being deliberately obtuse?

One of your friends is striking out with women all over the place in a nightclub, getting drunk and frustrated and angry, calling them all bitches and sluts, grabbing girls arms as they walk by. In that case, could you see a possiblity that you might step in, tell him to chill out, be a bit more respectful, that how he is acting is not acceptable.

[Deleted User]

I think you might be missing the point that some men are making I.e why ask men ALONE to do something about sexual violence, It is a societally problem not a gender only problem so why not ask how can society ( which is make up of men an women) to do something about this.

SeventySix

clairefontaine wrote: »

You think rapists out there reading that article or now going to say to themselves "That dumb bitch says I should not rape" so I'm not going to?

No, of course not. But could it be possible that a young man that hasnt raped but has been openly dismissive of women, is agressive towards them in nightclubs with out having actually steped fully over the line, could be influenced toward having abetter attitude by his peers. Is it possible that this prevents a rape in 10 years?

I know I seem to be defending her, which is not really my intention. But I do defend the principal that all the reasonable decent men out there are not entired powerless to try and intervene when one of their associates is getting out of line.

donfers

on her twitter feed she says she is encouraging men to tell their male friends and male family members not to be abusive to women and she doesn't even realise how insane that sounds

"Hi Dad, listen I read an article tonight and it had a real effect on me, I am going to have to ask you not to rape or beat up any women ok"

clairefontaine

SeventySix wrote: »

Was there any way that she could have targeted the article towards men doing something to prevent sexual violence without being labeled a bigot, do you think?

I am not being sarky, genuinely want to know.She is asking something of men, that the men here it seems dont want to be asked to do, that it seems they dont feel they should have to do. Is that a fair assertion?

Is it fair to say that men with little respect for women, probably dont have many close women friends? That the influence of women in that case probably wont mean much to someone that already has a bad attitude.

I think we are talking about wider society rather than just law inforcement, that its about prevention more than action after the fact.

Its stupid too though.

You think rapists out there reading that article or now going to say to themselves "That dumb bitch says I should not rape" so I'm not going to?

She's an idiot. No street smarts. Just out of college liberal intellectual masterbation the IT decided to share with the world.

SeventySix

The Corinthian wrote: »

I know that the quality of journalism is pretty bad in Ireland, but aren't you just pushing the bounds of credibility just a bit when you try to 'explain' how she's been misunderstood so?

I'm afraid it's simply not a reasonable defence to suggest that she was unclear or didn't explain herself properly. Even if she's a journalist of limited talent, the editorial still got vetted before getting published, so in reality it's means what it says.

The most likely interpretation is the obvious one; she's a bigot.

Was there any way that she could have targeted the article towards men doing something to prevent sexual violence without being labeled a bigot, do you think?

I am not being sarky, genuinely want to know.She is asking something of men, that the men here it seems dont want to be asked to do, that it seems they dont feel they should have to do. Is that a fair assertion?

Is it fair to say that men with little respect for women, probably dont have many close women friends? That the influence of women in that case probably wont mean much to someone that already has a bad attitude.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

That must come as a surprise to those male garda investigating rape.

I think we are talking about wider society rather than just law inforcement, that its about prevention more than action after the fact.

charlie_says

What a horrible article, and illogical to boot.

Don't tar all readers as idiots; but don't write condescending crap?

clairefontaine

Didn't the IT fire Kevin Myers for some slur he made about single mothers?

I wonder if she will get fired too eventually.

I don't like the IT, never have. This really surpasses bad bad bad journalism, and its readers are white middle class Irish people right? Tis is Ireland's paper of record?

That's embarrassing. It's nearly as bad as the Guardian.

The Corinthian

mariaalice wrote: »

Back to what the poster asked how not to make social issuers one gender only issue or one gender verse the other issues, in this sexual violence.

I think awareness raising in schools with early teens would go along way in doing this, however to do this you would have to discuss topics that are deeply uncomfortable for society, such as the power and powerlessness in society, the role of sexual fantasy, the role of parenting in the development of aberrant personalities, the need for status in society, discussion around structure and agency in shaping behaviour and so.

Indeed. However, I think you should be emailing those suggestions to Ms Mullally, rather than posting it here.

[Deleted User]

Back to what the poster asked how not to make social issuers one gender only issue or one gender verse the other issues, in this sexual violence.

I think awareness raising in schools with early teens would go along way in doing this, however to do this you would have to discuss topics that are deeply uncomfortable for society, such as the power and powerlessness in society, the role of sexual fantasy, the role of parenting in the development of aberrant personalities, the need for status in society, discussion around structure and agency in shaping behaviour and so.

donfers

guys and gals,

you really should get your complaints in about this, enough is enough

we are now being told that unless we somehow invoke our magic "predict-a-rapist" powers and identify the culprit prior to the crime then we are somehow culpable too

men are fair game in the media, I know that, any kind of slur or insult against men is generally deemed acceptable and humorous but where to draw the line?

this is the kind of stuff you'd expect to read in some whackjob feminist's "men are the devil" blog and that would be OK but in the Irish Times, Jesus - it's shameful

Rev Hellfire

SeventySix wrote: »

People should do it, but she decided to ask it of men only, as she feels that men as a gender perhaps arent being asked to help currently.

That must come as a surprise to those male garda investigating rape.

The Corinthian

SeventySix wrote: »

No, she definitely meant Men, she was definitely asking Men to do something.

People should do it, but she decided to ask it of men only, as she feels that men as a gender perhaps arent being asked to help currently.

I know that the quality of journalism is pretty bad in Ireland, but aren't you just pushing the bounds of credibility just a bit when you try to 'explain' how she's been misunderstood so?

I'm afraid it's simply not a reasonable defence to suggest that she was unclear or didn't explain herself properly. Even if she's a journalist of limited talent, the editorial still got vetted before getting published, so in reality it's means what it says.

The most likely interpretation is the obvious one; she's a bigot.

Pawwed Rig

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I am using her logic but replacing men with Muslims, strip joints with radical mosques, and rapists with terrorists.

Thank you for the clarification. Post on

Zulu

Considering that ALL rapists have a mother, wouldn't the article have been better directed towards women?

SeventySix

psinno wrote: »

FTFY

No, she definitely meant Men, she was definitely asking Men to do something.

People should do it, but she decided to ask it of men only, as she feels that men as a gender perhaps arent being asked to help currently.

Carlos Orange

SeventySix wrote: »

Or perhaps what she meant but made an arse of expressing is -

Some men have a bad attitude to women, could the people that dont share this attitude but are aware of it in their friends, do humanity a favour by having a word or keeping an eye on them in situations where they may make others uncomfortable. This might be helpful as the current advice is for women to avoid these situations entirely and treat all men like the one you might know that is dodgy, which is unfair to all men.

FTFY

Frank Lee Midere

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Mod note - You've lost me too. Please clarify what you are trying to say here Frank Lee Midere

Really?

I am using her logic but replacing men with Muslims, strip joints with radical mosques, and rapists with terrorists.

I was toying with saying that at the end but assumed it was obvious.

Clearly if someone were to write my piece in a national newspaper they would be , justly, assuaged of generalisations or racism/sectarianism.

SeventySix

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I think I can summarise the article for you.

Some men are bad, other men know these men, therefore all men are bad.

Or perhaps what she meant but made an arse of expressing is -

Some men have a bad attitude to women, could the men that dont share this attitude but are aware of it in their friends, do humanity a favour by having a word or keeping an eye on them in situations where they may make others uncomfortable. This might be helpful as the current advice is for women to avoid these situations entirely and treat all men like the one you might know that is dodgy, which is unfair to all men.

Pepe LeFrits

I think Frank was attempting to ridicule the article by substituting Muslims and Terrorism for Men and Rape. Or maybe he just really doesn't like Muslims...

Rev Hellfire

psinno wrote: »

I only skimmed the article. Does it address the fairly plausible scenario that all these rapists also know women or is it just the usual infantilisation of womens roles and responsibilities in society?

I think I can summarise the article for you.

Some men are bad, other men know these men, therefore all men are bad.

Pawwed Rig

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

You've lost me.

Mod note - You've lost me too. Please clarify what you are trying to say here Frank Lee Midere

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The logic of the piece is just in my view. I feel the same about muslims. I know a few and they are gentle kind sorts, and one is a sufi. Lovely guy. Nice version of the religion. Statistically though he probably knows, or is related to, some muslim who goes to a more radical mosque. And that guy he knows, while not being a terrorist, is like the visitors to strip clubs who are not rapists, but are still women haters - well this guy my sufi friend knows is a Western hater at his radical Mosque. And so are muslim terrorists western haters, but more extreme again.

I conclude therefore, that all muslims are terrorists, and in no sense is my nice muslim friend exempt.

Carlos Orange

py2006 wrote: »

The article suggests that I am potentially a rapist and some of my friends are aware of this but choose to turn a blind eye. Equally it suggests that I KNOW a rapist, he is one of my friends/family, and I choose to turn a blind eye.

I only skimmed the article. Does it address the fairly plausible scenario that all these rapists also know women or is it just the usual infantilisation of womens roles and responsibilities in society?

py2006

I seriously doubt she has male friends, or at least you won't have many now.

The Corinthian

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

There is also a strange assumption by the columnist that women do not have male friends.

Not at all; maybe she believes that it's simply that it is not a woman friend's responsibility to intercede if she has such suspicions. It's clearly a man's job.

Not to mention that she's unlikely to know about any male friend who's "a little wayward, and whose behaviour towards women is dubious" - it's a well known fact that we men only discuss our rape exploits when we meet at the local masonic lodge, where we go to organize the perpetuation of the Patriarchy, before going on to a brothel that specializes in trafficked women.

:rolleyes: