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Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

KenSwee

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18403809

Here we go again. What are these guys up too?

Can we afford to lose the English clubs?
Is the Hino bigger than the Premiership?
How big of an influence will Sky and Canal+ have?

The French clubs are also threatening to pull out apparently.
Every couple of years we see this, and it's getting boring. You never hear of football bodies pulling out of the Champions league.

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irishbucsfan

ColmH81 wrote: »

If you mean the free to UK customers, then that's permanent as long as said customer keeps their BT Vision/broadband...

Are you sure? I have it, and they seemed quite clear it was just for one year?

irishbucsfan

McCBrian wrote: »

I do not know when they saw it, but I do know that the RFU had not seen the BT deal in May

Is there any evidence for this?

ColmH81

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Are you sure? I have it, and they seemed quite clear it was just for one year?

I'd be very, very surprised.. It's not the brief we were given in work(I work for BT in ROI) but then again, as we can't get BT BB I guess I couldn't be 100% sure... But I will try find out tomorrow...

irishbucsfan

ColmH81 wrote: »

I'd be very, very surprised.. It's not the brief we were given in work(I work for BT in ROI) but then again, as we can't get BT BB I guess I couldn't be 100% sure... But I will try find out tomorrow...

It might be different for ROI, or maybe it's for new customers. I dunno, you'd know better than me. I don't think I kept the letter.

McCBrian

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is there any evidence for this?

Is there any evidence to the contrary ?

It is in the thread that the RFU did not know the figures at the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th meeting of the ERC and they said so.

Do not have time to dig it out or perhaps you can provide a link to a Mark McCafferty quote where he says "We have advised the RFU of all details of our superdooper deal with BT Vision for the European rights for all AP teams games home and away" (apart from todays quote that does not state specific dates of when the RFU were party to the illegal televisual deal)

irishbucsfan

McCBrian wrote: »

Is there any evidence to the contrary ?

It is in the thread that the RFU did not know the figures at the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th meeting of the ERC and they said so.

Do not have time to dig it out or perhaps you can provide a link to a Mark McCafferty quote where he says "We have advised the RFU of all details of our superdooper deal with BT Vision for the European rights for all AP teams games home and away" (apart from todays quote that does not state specific dates of when the RFU were party to the illegal televisual deal)

Ok, if you say so. I'd doubt we'll ever know more on it for sure, but I don't think the RFU would ever back the deal without seeing it.

McCBrian

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ok, if you say so. I'd doubt we'll ever know more on it for sure, but I don't think the RFU would ever back the deal without seeing it.

And when did the RFU back the deal, was it last week per chance?

So by infrence they are only just au fait with the details, would they not have come out earlier(Sept/Oct/Nov/Dec 12 or January to August 2013) in their support of PRL if they knew the full details of the PRL proposal?

irishbucsfan

McCBrian wrote: »

And when did the RFU back the deal, was it last week per chance?

So by infrence they are only just au fait with the details, would they not have come out earlier(Sept/Oct/Nov/Dec 12 or January to August 2013) in their support of PRL if they knew the full details of the PRL proposal?

The RFU came out in support of PRL in October 2012. Ian Ritchie himself.

And I believe the meeting between PRL and the RFU to discuss the BT deal was September 26th 2012, if you'd like the exact date.

McCBrian

So following the PRL and FFR statement it looks as if the ERC will continue the only ones not willing to negotiaite are PRL a 1/13th partner in the current process.
Seems to me that as PRL can not get their way and they will not compromse on anything (Same representation fpr them although 4 unions will have to cede number of participants, we want more money and more goverance) Take it or leave it we have a great new competition that you might be invited into, but we decide if you are are acceptable and then it is dependant on where you come from, plus we will run it, decide how much you are worth etc

thomond2006

There's been so many statements from different parties I don't know where to begin in understanding the current situation!

McCBrian

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The RFU came out in support of PRL in October 2012. Ian Ritchie himself.

And I believe the meeting between PRL and the RFU to discuss the BT deal was September 26th 2012, if you'd like the exact date.

Link for either would be appreciated

As I would like to see where it countenances that PRL had authority to negotiate European televisual rights and the RFU had given PRL those rights

Got the date btw;)

McCBrian

IBF Don't you think that this press release by PRL on a Sunday (hoping everyone else is not at work, good on you FFR) a day before HC are going to make a press release on the launch of this seasons competitin is a bit disingenuous, but that seems to be PRL's tactics

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

There's been so many statements from different parties I don't know where to begin in understanding the current situation!

Basically the LNR and PRL announced the new competition as you know.

Then the RFU came out saying they couldn't back a competition they knew nothing about, but reiterated would back Premiership Rugby's reforms.

JP Lux put out a letter saying he had been told by the RFU and FFR that the competition that they wouldn't back the competition and that the IRB wouldn't let it go ahead. Seemingly contrasting statements made by both.

In contrast, the CEO of the IRB came out quite jovially saying how healthy this whole debate is for rugby and that they would have no problem with a new competition, but weren't keen on an Anglo-French competition, it would have to be a European competition. They pretty much left the decision up to the RFU and FFR.

The ERC announced a mediator called Gavin Mews or something along those lines has been appointed to fix everything. Meanwhile the typically bullish McCafferty is adamant they're finished with the ERC. No meeting with the ERC until October 23rd or some time in late October.

Ian Ritchie came out underlining the urgency of all these negotiations the same day as that, seemingly annoyed by the delay before the next meeting.

Then today the LNR and PRL announced the name of the new competition.

Peter Boyle of the IRFU announced no provinces would be involved in the new competition.

Then the FFR came out and said "Nous N'Aimons Pas McCafferty" tonight. Possibly putting the kibosh on the whole thing, or else trying to hold LNR over a barrel for extra access to their players etc. Any statement from them is extremely rare and pretty influential.

I don't think we'll hear anything actually really important until the end of October. And I anticipate loads of McCafferty between now and then as he shows how much they can do in the same time to try and sway opinion his way. All for show id say, Like announcing the flavours of tea that will be served at meetings etc.

I don't really think things have moved that much during all of this. Just everyone underlining their positions via the media.

irishbucsfan

McCBrian wrote: »

Link for either would be appreciated

As I would like to see where it countenances that PRL had authority to negotiate European televisual rights and the RFU had given PRL those rights

Got the date btw;)

I dunno if I'll be able to find links for the meeting online, I'll have a look for you and be back shortly, I'd imagine the Beeb covered it

irishbucsfan

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/170372.html
The meeting, well actually just an article saying it was happening the next day.

McCBrian

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Basically the LNR and PRL announced the new competition as you know.

Then the RFU came out saying they couldn't back a competition they knew nothing about, but reiterated would back Premiership Rugby's reforms.

JP Lux put out a letter saying he had been told by the RFU and FFR that the competition that they wouldn't back the competition and that the IRB wouldn't let it go ahead. Seemingly contrasting statements made by both.

In contrast, the CEO of the IRB came out quite jovially saying how healthy this whole debate is for rugby and that they would have no problem with a new competition, but weren't keen on an Anglo-French competition, it would have to be a European competition. They pretty much left the decision up to the RFU and FFR.

The ERC announced a mediator called Gavin Mews or something along those lines has been appointed to fix everything. Meanwhile the typically bullish McCafferty is adamant they're finished with the ERC. No meeting with the ERC until October 23rd or some time in late October.

Ian Ritchie came out underlining the urgency of all these negotiations the same day as that, seemingly annoyed by the delay before the next meeting.

Then today the LNR and PRL announced the name of the new competition.

Peter Boyle of the IRFU announced no provinces would be involved in the new competition.

Then the FFR came out and said "Nous N'Aimons Pas McCafferty" tonight. Possibly putting the kibosh on the whole thing, or else trying to hold LNR over a barrel for extra access to their players etc. Any statement from them is extremely rare and pretty influential.

I don't think we'll hear anything actually really important until the end of October.Agree And I anticipate loads of McCafferty between now and then as he shows how much they can do in the same time to try and sway opinion his way. All for show id say, Like announcing the flavours of tea that will be served at meetings etc.
Hear McCafferty is leaning towards Earl Grey, whereas FIR/FFR are in the Djareeling position and the Irish/Welsh/Scots are in the English Breakfast tea camps

I don't really think things have moved that much during all of this. Just everyone underlining their positions via the media.

Fair summation with the caveats highlighted above

Crash

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't think we'll hear anything actually really important until the end of October. And I anticipate loads of McCafferty between now and then as he shows how much they can do in the same time to try and sway opinion his way. All for show id say, Like announcing the flavours of tea that will be served at meetings etc.

I wait with breathless anticipation for McCafferty to announce the official colour of the bike shed for all Rugby Champions Cup Match stadiums.

McCBrian

Crash wrote: »

I wait with breathless anticipation for McCafferty to announce the official colour of the bike shed for all Rugby Champions Cup Match stadiums.

Don't you know it is blue he made a statement on the 31st of July, plese keep up:D

Although it will probably consigned to the bin like his previous announcements along with that LI would play a pre-season friendly in Boston in August this year, never happened and that AP teams could sell 30K-50K tickets to matches in the US for AP games (although that might have been Wray) despite the highest attendance in NA for a Rugby "INTERNATIONAL" game involving the national side being <50% less than his 50K projected figure

irishbucsfan

Paul Goze has his say

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,3559_8917259,00.html

The murmurings in the media are that the clubs feel that the Unions would be in breach of law if they tried to prevent the competition from going ahead. That's why you hear all the "they can't stop us" stuff.

"We're not threatening not to participate in the European Cup - we're saying we will not participate," Goze told rugby365.

"We are taking a decision not to play in this competition in its current format. We think that there is no alternative.

"We asked for a revision of the current format of the Heineken Cup and some financial redistribution.

"It seems wrong that some clubs can qualify automatically, while in France, there is a genuine qualification process. We have done everything to try to change that, but without success.

"(The IRB) understands our message - and, besides, nobody can prevent us from establishing a new competition.

"We proposed a new platform that has not been accepted by the ERC. The English are on the same wavelength as us."

"If (the ERC) back off and we hear a new competition will be created with the format and the framework we have proposed (we will work with them).

"Our model puts everyone on an equal footing. The presidents of the Top 14 all gave us their approval, which is why we can stand together on this.

"I would not allow myself to do this alone. We will now meet with the English clubs to implement this new competition, and assess the work that remains to be done ahead of the 2014-2015 season."

irishbucsfan

McCafferty sounds quite defensive in these quotes. I don't think Paul Rees is their best friend at the moment

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/22/premiership-rugby-champions-cup

errlloyd

The lack of maturity being shown by all sides is incredible, but particularly EPL. I hope we were willing to give them their 20 team competition, because I have no problem with it really. So unless their demands were super dickish.

ConFurioso

McCafferty said he would be prepared to speak to Mew over the telephone, adding that it would be a short conversation unless the mediator showed he was open-minded...

He really is just a massive willy.

irishbucsfan

ConFurioso wrote: »

He really is just a massive willy.

I agree that he is, but I'd be wary of there being no direct quote accompanying that bit. The Guardian have been throwing a bunch of unnamed sources etc. around recently, maybe they're a little annoyed about the telegraph seemingly being the preferred outlet by Premiership Rugby.

.ak

McCafferty wrote:

We want a six-nation European tournament based on merit, with money divided between the three leagues, but it will not be run by ERC and there is no getting round that.

Ugh. His personal hatred for the ERC is sickening. It's business, get over it. He's basically saying even if the ERC offered exactly that, a competition based on merit with the money divided between the three leagues, the will not join it because the ERC are running it. :rolleyes:

.ak

Question - what if the RFU decided they still wanted to be part of the ERC come next season? What exactly can they bring to the table if the PRL decide to stick to their guns and don't join the ERC?

Winters

.ak wrote: »

Question - what if the RFU decided they still wanted to be part of the ERC come next season? What exactly can they bring to the table if the PRL decide to stick to their guns and don't join the ERC?

Jersey and Bristol?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

.ak

Yeah that makes sense.

In an ideal world, this competition should be setup by a party with no vested interests, i.e an IRB appointed panel.

Cookiemunster

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Did you not see the FFR statement last night? They are most definitely taking on the LNR.

ColmH81

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Did you not see the FFR statement last night? They are most definitely taking on the LNR.

Do you have a link to it? I missed it..