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Dun Laoghaire Traffic & Commuting Chat

Fratton Fred

To avoid derailing other SCD threads, I thought I'd add a Dun Laoghaire thread.

My main query, is does anyone know what is going on outside the train station? It looks like they are putting a crossing in twenty metres from the crossroads. Surely not?

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ted1

There was a few parking spaces at the old shop, where as there is none in front of the clothes shop. So it'd be very poor for grocery shopping.

DL is unfortunate in that its to big to be a village like Dalkey, Terenure , rathfarnham, cabintealy etc that can survive on foot fall from the pubs, cages and restaurants.
It's also then got to compete with larger areas such as town, dundrum etc which has better selection on shops based on the larger population.

They should convert the old shopping centre into a hub that will draw a large multinational that will draw people to the area and provide a larger base

Aard

Perhaps a business improvement district scheme would work well, like in the city centre. Then the separately owned shops could work together, so as to better compete with the regional shopping centres.

patrickbrophy18

ted1 wrote: »

They should convert the old shopping centre into a hub that will draw a large multinational that will draw people to the area and provide a larger base

Now we're on the same wave length. In order for Dun Laoghaire to compete with the likes of Dundrum or Carrickmines, they would need to do so on a like-for-like basis. The thing is that the retail units in Dundrum and Carrickmines are far superior to most seen in Dun Laoghaire in terms of size allowing more stock to be sold. With the advent of shopping centers like Dundrum or Blanchardstown and retail parks such as Carrickmines came altered and higher expectations of shopping environments. This is a good thing as it paints a more ambitious and dynamic picture of our country.

Unfortunately, there are a few factors which block Dun Laoghaire from regenerating itself properly. Firstly, there is the high abundance of NIMBY-ism in the area which often results in watering down even mildly ambitious re-invigoration plans. Next, the local council keep on adopting policies such as architectural conservation areas (ACAs). From an overall perspective, I agree with ACAs as they seek to protect the character of towns and village. However, they often over prioritize trivial architectural aspects at the expense of urban vitality. If you want to make an omelet, you have to crack a few eggs. In others words, if a town like Dun Laoghaire should be resuscitated, some sacrifices will need to be made. Finally, the last 10-15 years of development and particularly, the development of The Pavilion, Pavilion 2 and now The Huge Library have become obstacles to what could have been a massive commercial hub development.

The following map shows one possibility of how the land could have been better used (it's a rough sketch but, you get the idea):

DunLaoghaireUrbanRejuvenation.jpg?w=AACKb7i2hM6-ugKdP3QSELA4Odj53KK87wxlRF3gm-dPFg

DunLaoghaireUrbanRejuvenation.jpg?w=AACKb7i2hM6-ugKdP3QSELA4Odj53KK87wxlRF3gm-dPFg

Blue: Overall area for urban rejuvenation.
Purple: New shopping center 3 times the size of the current one.
Green: Existing green area. Possible landscaping could include a water feature.
Grey: Retail park like Carrickmines on a smaller scale.

ted1

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Now we're on the same wave length. In order for Dun Laoghaire to compete with the likes of Dundrum or Carrickmines, they would need to do so on a like-for-like basis. The thing is that the retail units in Dundrum and Carrickmines are far superior to most seen in Dun Laoghaire in terms of size allowing more stock to be sold. With the advent of shopping centers like Dundrum or Blanchardstown and retail parks such as Carrickmines came altered and higher expectations of shopping environments. This is a good thing as it paints a more ambitious and dynamic picture of our country.

Unfortunately, there are a few factors which block Dun Laoghaire from regenerating itself properly. Firstly, there is the high abundance of NIMBY-ism in the area which often results in watering down even mildly ambitious re-invigoration plans. Next, the local council keep on adopting policies such as architectural conservation areas (ACAs). From an overall perspective, I agree with ACAs as they seek to protect the character of towns and village. However, they often over prioritize trivial architectural aspects at the expense of urban vitality. If you want to make an omelet, you have to crack a few eggs. In others words, if a town like Dun Laoghaire should be resuscitated, some sacrifices will need to be made. Finally, the last 10-15 years of development and particularly, the development of The Pavilion, Pavilion 2 and now The Huge Library have become obstacles to what could have been a massive commercial hub development.

The following map shows one possibility of how the land could have been better used (it's a rough sketch but, you get the idea):

Blue: Overall area for urban rejuvenation.
Purple: New shopping center 3 times the size of the current one.
Green: Existing green area. Possible landscaping could include a water feature.
Grey: Retail park like Carrickmines on a smaller scale.

I didn't mean commercial hub, I mean if they can get a tech company in there and get 2000 office staff on there then the local shops will benefit from extra foot fall.
As a shopping centre its deemed to fail so change its use but keep the ground floor as relevant retail

Chinasea

ted1 wrote: »

I mean if they can get a tech company in there and get 2000 office staff on there then the local shops will benefit from extra foot fall.

I'm not having a go, but I really do wonder who "they" are?

ted1

Them being the IDA, DLRCoCo, enterprise board, etc

Fratton Fred

Are Ericsson still in Dun Laoghaire?

Chinasea

ted1 wrote: »

Them being the IDA, DLRCoCo, enterprise board, etc

None of these group either collaboratively or individually have the clout, the money, the authority, incentive to open up and close businesses.

The 'they' should notion is a bottomless diversion that will yield nothing.

ted1

Chinasea wrote: »

None of these group either collaboratively or individually have the clout, the money, the authority, incentive to open up and close businesses.

The 'they' should notion is a bottomless diversion that will yield nothing.

Nonsense, they need to chase up big buisness just like other areas of the country do

MurdyWurdy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Are Ericsson still in Dun Laoghaire?

Nope - building is vacant now

Tabnabs

ted1 wrote: »

Nonsense, they need to chase up big buisness just like other areas of the country do

Is the Shopping Centre privately owned or the property of the CoCo?

ted1

Private I imagine, and I imagine if a proposal was put to them that would generate rent they would jump on it.

WhatNowForUs?

MurdyWurdy wrote: »

Nope - building is vacant now

6,000 sq meters of it.

Aard

ted1 wrote: »

Private I imagine, and I imagine if a proposal was put to them that would generate rent they would jump on it.

I'm sure that whoever owns it isn't underutilising it for the good of their health. Redevelopment takes a long time to coordinate, and in the short-term it doesnt always make sense to rent out vacant units for cheap.

Tabnabs

ted1 wrote: »

Private I imagine, and I imagine if a proposal was put to them that would generate rent they would jump on it.

Why would it be a good idea for "IDA, DLRCoCo, enterprise board, etc " to get involved in a private business asset and pump tax payers money into it, to allow another private company to come in and benefit from the publicly funded development?

Are there not enough empty office blocks in DL (never mind Dublin)?

Is the debacle of the Cherrywood Strategic Development Zone not enough of a bottomless money pit for you?

DL Shopping Centre is privately owned and must sink or swim by its own merit.

BTW, anyone else heard a very interesting rumour about the fortunes of Bloomfields?

frash

Tabnabs wrote: »

BTW, anyone else heard a very interesting rumour about the fortunes of Bloomfields?

no - care to share?

MurdyWurdy

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

6,000 sq meters of it.

It is a pity. I worked there a few years ago and it was a lovely place to work - I have very fond memories of it

Tabnabs

frash wrote: »

no - care to share?

Unverified rumour, so not going to spill any beans.

patrickbrophy18

ted1 wrote: »

I didn't mean commercial hub, I mean if they can get a tech company in there and get 2000 office staff on there then the local shops will benefit from extra foot fall

It may benefit the people that work there but not the greater public.

ted1 wrote: »

As a shopping centre its deemed to fail so change its use but keep the ground floor as relevant retail

The reason why the current shopping center is doing badly is that it is not keeping up to the higher standards set by the likes of Dundrum. To put it another way, when Dundrum opened it's doors back in 2005, consumer expectations changed in terms of shop size, environment and choice. In essence, people would begin to want bigger, better and more dynamic shopping environments. The recession certainly hasn't helped and in my opinion, it has been the icing on the cake for Dun Laoghaire Shopping Center's bleak fate. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it ends up closing completely even two years down the road. While the recent makeover to the concourse was a big improvement, it was a failed attempt at a strategic response. The car park leaves a lot to be desired with it's worn surface and tight parking spaces. Moreover, compared to it's bigger rivals, it has a scarcity of them. Many car parks today also provide buffers between parking spaces to allow extra room when opening doors.

As for the surrounding streets in the town of Dun Laoghaire. There are numerous ways in which to improve the shopping experience along them. Weather is still quite a big problem when going around Dun Laoghaire on foot. For example, I've gotten soaked when walking from Bloomfields to the main shopping center when I'm caught unaware by torrential rain. A series of glass arches spanning the width of the street could be constructed to make the street below feel more like the concourse of a shopping center. Georges Street Lower, Convent Road, Patrick's Street and Mulgrave Street come to mind. Pedestrianization might be needed as well where northbound bus routes would ultimately operate down Marine Road and then Crofton Road. Both roads have enough space to be reconfigured to QBC status. Alternatively, Crofton Road and Harbour Roads could be turned into a one-way system so that the pedestrian crossing can be retained. The slack or surplus space leftover could then be transformed into high quality cycle tracks. Anyway, the above is just a though. What do y'all think?

Chinasea

But perhaps this whole emphasis on 'retail shopping' is part of the problem. Many towns as we know it are something of yester year. People are buying elsewhere now and via countless other channels, ie. online shopping, large drive in shopping areas like Carrickmines etc.

It is my belief that we need to rezone many of the front-line empty properties back to non- commercial properties, and let families start living on the high streets/towns again and in this case I am talking about Dun Laoghaire.

With the introduction of some more green spaces and badly needed robust planting in these built up dismal grim baron zones a definite hub could be achieved with some quality pubs/restaurants/coffee shops/fresh produce market and whatever shops the market dictated. People still need to use their towns for certain things, but just not shopping as we once knew it.

MurdyWurdy

I was thinking along these lines when there was a poster above complaining that the new library was a waste because soon nobody will use books anymore. Libraries are not just for getting books from, they often have great community events on too regularly - mother and baby groups and senior citizen meeting and things like that. I don't think the Council should only have to put in places that are business oriented and make money. Dun Laoghaire needs a bit of soul and community focus.

WoollyRedHat

Would be interested to see the likes of Hard Rock Cafe come to DL....

or something different like a Jazz or piano bar...

Alias G

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Would be interested to see the likes of Hard Rock Cafe come to DL....

or something different like a Jazz or piano bar...

Dún Laoghaire would probably require so form of night life in order for them to succeed though.

Tabnabs

Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has placed the latest plans for the redevelopment of the Dún Laoghaire Baths site on public display. (kind of)

BWHpCekCEAAC4Di.jpg:large

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/newsevents/latestnews/title,9892,en.html

the groutch

more money being thrown at the seafront, while the main street dies a slow painful death.

Tabnabs

Nice to see they will open up the seafront a bit more. The poor drunks were starting to get a bit corralled down in their corner. It will hopefully also give the local graffiti artists a whole new canvas to express themselves on. I'm sure the Arts Council give grants for their work too?

Larbre34

Typical Dun Laoghaire style comment there.

My office is on the street above the baths site, I get a refresh of eyesore every day. Various options have been proposed for it over the years, some OTT with commercial and residential, some just prohibitively expensive. The people of the area have made clear they will not wear a commercialisation or privatisation of the site and thats fair enough but without commercial money you wont get a big shiny pool complex. This scheme may well be shot down again, but the old adage is coming to the fore that 'people dont know what they want, but what they do know is its never what you're offering them!'

What would you rather see, the dereliction remain exactly as is or a simple scheme that opens up the site and makes it accessible while improving the visual and continuing the busy route from Sandycove to the Pier? The thing is being built in such a way that it doesnt obstruct a future building of sea-baths if money becomes available.

I also dont get this argument of seafront v main street. The new public space developments on the seafront drew massive crowds in the summer, it was a great buzz walking back to the train every day. But the point is it is public space that public money could be spent to improve, what do you spend on the Georges Street when youre dealing with private buildings? The street scape itself has had more money than sense thrown at it over the last ten years to no real advantage.....

Tabnabs

Larbre34 wrote: »

What would you rather see, the dereliction remain exactly as is or a simple scheme that opens up the site and makes it accessible while improving the visual and continuing the busy route from Sandycove to the Pier? The thing is being built in such a way that it doesnt obstruct a future building of sea-baths if money becomes available.

The site will still be derelict. They've conveniently left the building and the surrounding area blanked out. All they are doing is putting a path through the site by the looks of it. The building and all the land to the east of it will remain derelict. Is that an agreeable solution?

Have you seen the recent graffiti on the wall beside the bandstand? It just makes the entire place look scummy.

And this site will never have a baths located there again. That's now happening in the harbour, the CoCo have sunk a six figure sum into the project. DL baths is no more.

Larbre34

Tabnabs wrote: »

The site will still be derelict. They've conveniently left the building and the surrounding area blanked out. All they are doing is putting a path through the site by the looks of it. The building and all the land to the east of it will remain derelict. Is that an agreeable solution?

Have you seen the recent graffiti on the wall beside the bandstand? It just makes the entire place look scummy.

And this site will never have a baths located there again. That's now happening in the harbour, the CoCo have sunk a six figure sum into the project. DL baths is no more.

As I heard it, the old baths structures and defunct walls are being demolished, the level of the old large pool will be the pathway through the site, the reception building is being re-furb'd and let as an artist studio, its original 2 storey profile will be restored and made visible. Also the rest of the site wont be derelict, there is an extended jetty being installed to allow for sea swimming beyond the tide line, and as a dock for sea kayaks and to prevent coastal erosion. Id hope graffiti will be dealt with when its opened up in the same way its dealt with in other public amenities.

That badeschiff proposal for the harbour is ridiculously expensive for punters, I think its a pity if theres never a public sea bath in the bay again.

Tabnabs

I sincerely hope you're right about the development and the NIMBYism from Ciaran Cuffe and the other "locals" gets a dose of realism.