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BER D2 up to B

random10

We have spotted a house we like but the BER is D2 so I'm guessing a cold house?? Would it take much work/effort to improve this to a B3 or B2?

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L1011

Get and read the BER report - there a huge number of reasons, some hugely spurious, that can bring down a rating.

When rating my house, the inspector didn't bother going in to the attic and put down that there was *no* attic insulation, as opposed to the under 10 year old Kingspan stuff fitted. And that was only the start of their inaccuracies!

magoko101

It depends on many factors.... the size of the property for one.
How big the windows are etc, whether an extension is in place that may need to be knocked and rebuilt.

In short... moving up to the D range is not too difficult (ie attic insulation, boiler etc) but for B ratings you are probably going to have to look at wall insulation and an overhaul of the heating system. So it won't be cheap and the cost will of course increase the larger the property.

ted1

The cost of upgrading to a b don't make it worthwhile. Try aiming for a C

blacktea

Its likely that to get to a B2 you would have to upgrade the three high cost items which are insulating walls and ceilings and installing a high efficiency boiler with controls. The other upgrades to be put in place pretty much are basic and cheaper like installing energy efficient light bulbs etc. The cost wouldn't be excessive if you have cavity walls and existing double glazing (depending on budget) c.5/6/7k. However if you don't have cavity walls forget it. Building age is very important as defaults for a floor etc. for instance on a 1960's bungalow would Kill your chances but im assuming if its a D then it is a relatively modern build.

beauf

random10 wrote: »

We have spotted a house we like but the BER is D2 so I'm guessing a cold house?? Would it take much work/effort to improve this to a B3 or B2?

I wouldn't be relying on the Ber for accuracy.

random10

Why do you say not to rely on the BER rating? I think this house is 8-10 years old if it has a D2 do you think it means it's a very cold house? I like my warmth it would put me off to be honest

hfallada

The BER rating is BS. Having things like thermostat controls( who ever uses them) and 2 permanent CFLs can influence the rating. Also can the size of the living room. OP I would be more concerned with ensuring the attic is properly insulated( often they arent, even in new builds), the boiler is condenser and replace the windows with triple glaze( amber windows in Dublin are seriously cheap for these windows).

I think the house sold here should be like in UK where you give your old utility bills. Therefore you can see how much the gas and electricity the house uses rather than a maybe with the BER.

MicktheMan

random10 wrote: »

We have spotted a house we like but the BER is D2 so I'm guessing a cold house??

Not necessarily. "B" rated houses can be colder and harder to heat than "D" rated houses. There are many factors to be taken into account.

Energy ratings are produced by a computer program after a visual survey of the property by the assessor. No actual tests of the property are carried out. As a result, building technology and workmanship play a large role in the comfort level, yet are not taken into account in the energy rating.
If this is a concern, then have the house surveyed by an experienced heal loss surveyor who will actually test the house for draughts, insulation weaknesses, damp and ventilation issues.

Moonbeam

I have a house that is c1 and it is lovely and warm and insulated.
We live in an E1 rated house and it is a normal 1970's semi D,not amazingly cold but you do need the heating on more frequently then in the other house.
Both are gas heated and no back boiler.

Simple things like putting in double glazing can make a huge difference.

Marcusm

hfallada wrote: »

The BER rating is BS. Having things like thermostat controls( who ever uses them) and 2 permanent CFLs can influence the rating. Also can the size of the living room. OP I would be more concerned with ensuring the attic is properly insulated( often they arent, even in new builds), the boiler is condenser and replace the windows with triple glaze( amber windows in Dublin are seriously cheap for these windows).

I think the house sold here should be like in UK where you give your old utility bills. Therefore you can see how much the gas and electricity the house uses rather than a maybe with the BER.

I have never heard of that in my 17 years in the UK.

beauf

I would be useful to see utility bills to see the usage.

pippip

Other peoples bills will never give you an accurate enough measure, peoples daily routine can be totally different.

Some people would put on the heating all day when cold, others would put the heating on and have it setup completely wrong, others would put on a jumper instead, others would light the fire, and some might hardly ever be at home.

L1011

Marcusm wrote: »

I have never heard of that in my 17 years in the UK.

There's the new home info pack system there now. Dunno what's required though.

whippet

last year I purchased a house with a D1 rating (3,200 sqf), my intention from the outset was to make changes to improve this, but after putting over €3000 worth of oil in to the tank last winter I got my act together and did the bulk of the work this summer:

- 90 Kingspan Solar Tubes on the roof with a 300L Solar Tank and 800L Buffer tank
- Additional 9" Attic insulation
- INIS Boiler Stove with about 18.5Kw output to a Firebird heat exchanger
- The heating is underfloor already and I now have 6 zones with individual digital thermostats

I am hopeful that I can be oil free this winter and I would expect to be getting a B rating if I were to do an new BER test.

The next job will be to replace windows (from double to triple glaze)

It wasn't a cheap or easy job but I am expecting payback in 5 years (less if energy prices keep rising)

beauf

pippip wrote: »

Other peoples bills will never give you an accurate enough measure, peoples daily routine can be totally different.

Some people would put on the heating all day when cold, others would put the heating on and have it setup completely wrong, others would put on a jumper instead, others would light the fire, and some might hardly ever be at home.

Well you'd take that into consideration. I just said it was useful. Not a fix for the flawed BER.

The BER is an educated guess on things being built to a certain standard, without checking that it was. Look at priory hall. The adherence to standards in the construction industry is terrible.

http://passivehouseplus.ie/news/government/unpublished-seai-report-showed-systemic-building-control-failure.html

ted1

whippet wrote: »

last year I purchased a house with a D1 rating (3,200 sqf), my intention from the outset was to make changes to improve this, but after putting over €3000 worth of oil in to the tank last winter I got my act together and did the bulk of the work this summer:

- 90 Kingspan Solar Tubes on the roof with a 300L Solar Tank and 800L Buffer tank
- Additional 9" Attic insulation
- INIS Boiler Stove with about 18.5Kw output to a Firebird heat exchanger
- The heating is underfloor already and I now have 6 zones with individual digital thermostats

I am hopeful that I can be oil free this winter and I would expect to be getting a B rating if I were to do an new BER test.

The next job will be to replace windows (from double to triple glaze)

It wasn't a cheap or easy job but I am expecting payback in 5 years (less if energy prices keep rising)

With regards windows its mot simply a matter of replacing doubles with triples. You need to look at the U Value. Cheap triples may be less beneficial than good doubles.

What kind of price did you spend on the other stuff?

whippet

ted1 wrote: »

With regards windows its mot simply a matter of replacing doubles with triples. You need to look at the U Value. Cheap triples may be less beneficial than good doubles.

What kind of price did you spend on the other stuff?

the windows will be a separate project and I haven't even given it more than a second thought just yet.

The other stuff was part of other renovations and bits that I wanted to do in the house but a cost of about €15k on the over haul of the heating system i'd say.

The labour costs were fairly large as retro fitting and routing of pipes isn't a quick job!

MicktheMan

whippet wrote: »

last year I purchased a house with a D1 rating (3,200 sqf), my intention from the outset was to make changes to improve this, but after putting over €3000 worth of oil in to the tank last winter I got my act together and did the bulk of the work this summer:

- 90 Kingspan Solar Tubes on the roof with a 300L Solar Tank and 800L Buffer tank
- Additional 9" Attic insulation
- INIS Boiler Stove with about 18.5Kw output to a Firebird heat exchanger
- The heating is underfloor already and I now have 6 zones with individual digital thermostats

I am hopeful that I can be oil free this winter and I would expect to be getting a B rating if I were to do an new BER test.

The next job will be to replace windows (from double to triple glaze)

It wasn't a cheap or easy job but I am expecting payback in 5 years (less if energy prices keep rising)

Interesting work you got done there.

Would mind sharing your 5 year payback model?

Also, I Would love to hear bach from you after the winter to let us know how your bills were (and also include your solid fuel bills too:))

whippet

MicktheMan wrote: »

Interesting work you got done there.

Would mind sharing your 5 year payback model?

Also, I Would love to hear bach from you after the winter to let us know how your bills were (and also include your solid fuel bills too:))

The payback model is simple and basic .... in the last 12 months I have used €4000 worth of oil. This upgrade 'should' eliminate the requirement for oil totally. Over 5 years this would equate to a saving of at least €15-17k on oil; as we all know that oil prices are only going one direction.

I am not sure as to the electricity cost of hot water during the summer; but since we have had the solar installed we have not had to heat a drop of water, there are savings to be made there.

Soild fuel will be the only additional costs but this will be small fry in comparison to the oil as I have about 6 large trees which need felling in my garden and can be used as fuel.

pwurple

Just concurring with others that the BER is a load of tripe. When we were selling our house, first BER came in at an E1. Quite low, and we were surprised, as we had a new boiler, multiple heating zones, double glazed, well insulated etc.

Read the report, the low points were for our light bulbs apparantly.

Called in another BER person, whipped out the light bulbs in advance of them coming, no other change... Boom, up to a B3.

It's a daft survey, which tells you very little about heating performance. I expected some heat emitting device to be put in the house, and measurements taken. Nope. They count the light bulbs and rads. Enter the model number of your boiler into some software and out pops the number.

Idbatterim

I had no idea something as pathetic as light bulbs would influence it, what a joke! so when someone is getting an assessment done to sell the house, throwing in a few ccfl's could change the rating?! even the boiler in my opinion is spurious, as you can change an old one for a new one of the same fuel fairly easily / cheaply. The main thing that would concern me is the whether and how well the windows and walls are insulated, they are the money jobs. Throwing more insulation etc into the attic isnt exactly a problem...

josip

Wow, you're the first I've read about that has the ability to solar heat over a ton of water. Is the buffer tank insulated? Where is it located?

Our BER assessor told us that our halogen downlights were considered to be energy efficient lighting because they were on a dimmer switch.

whippet

josip wrote: »

Wow, you're the first I've read about that has the ability to solar heat over a ton of water. Is the buffer tank insulated? Where is it located?

.

the buffer is in an insulated garage and is also very well insulated itself.

This morning from solar alone my tank is at 59c while the buffer is at 41c

ted1

whippet wrote: »

the buffer is in an insulated garage and is also very well insulated itself.

This morning from solar alone my tank is at 59c while the buffer is at 41c

Iyou sir should install a hot tub. It'd cost you nothing to run

whippet

ted1 wrote: »

Iyou sir should install a hot tub. It'd cost you nothing to run

During the summer maybe, but this water will be needed during the winter for the underfloor so I can be oil free!

josip

That's exactly the kind of setup we were hoping to get a few years ago but we were told by a couple of different solar guys that using solar for under floor heating wasn't a good combination because when you need the water heated the sun often isn't there and then in the summer, when you'e not using it, you'll need to either dump a lot of water or risk damaging the tubes when your system reaches it's max tank temp. I was never sure if the advice was correct or not, but in the end our budget made the decision for us.

Have you got you got separate systems for domestic water and underfloor? If so, how many tubes for each and was your buffer tank at max temp for long over the summer?

whippet

josip wrote: »

Have you got you got separate systems for domestic water and underfloor? If so, how many tubes for each and was your buffer tank at max temp for long over the summer?

the 90 tubes are all on the one system.

When the summer was at it's peak with 30c sunny days the buffer tank was still only topping out at about 60c.

During the winter when the heat won't be there the solid fuel boiler will top up the tanks and the energy required to bring the temp up by only a couple of degrees won't be massive.

Considering the air temp dropped to about 8c last night and at 6am I had very decent hot water in both tanks purely via solar I am looking forward to it's performance during the winter.