esteve wrote: » You are right, I made a mistake, I am sorry, I was getting my genocides supported by the US confused. In East Timor approx 200,000 were killed, more or less a quarter of their population. It is a shocking number, something that the small nation has never recovered from. The figure of a million I refer to relates to a connected incident that precedes East Timor but led the way for it to happen, again involving Indonesia and Suharto, with the full backing and involvement of the US. It is the little known Indonesia killings of 1965-1966, also known as a purge, or could be called a genocide if you so please, ether way approx 1 million Indonesians were slaughtered due to their political beliefs. The US could not let these people ever be in power, so they helped annihilate themhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366 There is this fascinating film where Generals who were involved in this massacre, reenact some of their mass killings.http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/?ref_=sr_1
bumper234 wrote: » Totally agree but where is the proof that all of the people killed in these drone strikes (and the secondary strikes that usually follow) were members of any extremist groups?
Now tell me this, how many of these suspected insurgents were innocent? 5% ? 25% 50? How many innocent people are being killed by America in it's attempts to stop innocent people getting killed?
Jonny7 wrote: » Chances are if you join one of these Pashtun miltia's, you are going to find that the Pakistani army will be very quickly shooting at you - not asking for "proof". Of course if you become a commander, you might yourself targeted by US drones. The average person in Waziristan is a lot more likely to be killed by these militia's or have a bomb strapped to them by the local Taliban - than ever killed by a drone. However that isn't much recourse for those that are. I would say 0% of the thousands of Pakistanis they kill every year are guilty of anything but being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sadly they haven't found a way of fighting these groups without, in the process, also killing other innocents. It's a kind of grim trade off, not one I particularly support at all. They haven't constructed a working time machine either which can go back and reverse Cold War policies that helped **** up most of these countries in the first place. An idealistic situation would of course be to capture and try each person in a court of law - but that doesn't work in the field.
bumper234 wrote: » So basically bomb them to oblivion and never mind the innocents. But if someone else does it the US gets on it's high horse and says you can't do that. Ok gotcha now
Jonny7 wrote: » So basically miss the point and embellish what was said.. incorrectly. Gotcha
Godge wrote: » Yes, but both of these incidents were in the distant past when the world was a different place. Chechnya is not in the distant past.
Cork boy 55 wrote: » 500,000(patriotic campaign) + 100,000(east timor) = 600,000 Most of those 500,000~ liquidated by the Indonesian people in the patriotic campaign where PKI communist operatives and cadres PKI = The Communist Party of Indonesia Considering historical Communist behavior in power, good riddance. its a great shame for humanity the Russian and Chinese people failed to exterminate and crush the Bolsheviks and Maoists before they acquired power. HOW MANY PEOPLE DID COMMUNIST REGIMES MURDER?* By R.J. Rummel [IMG][/img]http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.TAB1.GIFhttp://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM
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Everytime Assad commits another war crime, some people shout "but what about the US" while others frankly could care less as long as it doesn't impact their quiet middle class existence too much.
America was all of that too, but it has grown significantly as a nation and despite many problems remaining is probably a better place and has a higher moral standing than....Ireland
Eggy Baby! wrote: » And in the meantime you are fighting on the ground with the FSA to liberate Syria against secular evil Assad? Jesus christ get the chip off your shoulder. America has a higher moral standing than Ireland? Mother of god, the fail!
Eggy Baby! wrote: » I just think it ridiculous that the pro-interventionists are now, having run out of ammunition for their indefensible position, resorting to using the pejorative term "anti-American" to describe anti-interventionist opinion. The thread is starting to fill up with russophobes and warhawks, and it's drifting off topic very frequently. Hell, two minutes ago a guy was praising the massacre of hundreds of thousands of communists in Indonesia, for some reason. Before that, people were praising America for "winning" WW2, thus starting off topic debates about the Eastern Front. Other people are using the thread as a platform for their russophobic opinions, complaining about the state of the media in Russia. *sigh* Anyway, there has been a nice compromise on the conflict in Geneva. Especially noteworthy was John Kerry's turnaround. According to Kerry, Russia and America have from the beginning, apparently stated that a military solution to the conflict is unfeasible. Sky News, as usual, showed Kerry's speech in Geneva but not Lavrov's: I had to go to evil, omniscient RT to find that soundbite. Ostensibly Sky News could not find an interpreter in time (not). The changing nature of America's position just shows that they lack the spine and principle necessary to succeed in international politics: simple as. Secondly, the USA has not destroyed it's chemical weapons stockpile by the issued deadline in accordance with the CWC. Neither has Russia or Libya.
AlekSmart wrote: » Well.with regard to the Fighting on the ground,as they might say in the Courts of Justice..."We do have precedent...."http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books-arts/the-dubliner-who-fought-gadaffi-29559950.html Today Libya,Tomorrow....??????
realweirdo wrote: » You do realise that most of these targets use their own family members as human shields in the hope it prevents drone attacks? You also realise that most of the targets are extremely nasty people who plan attacks against innocent civilians in the west? They are the type of AQ people who you say you abhor and yet when the West takes them out, you change tack again. You don't really feel sorry for the victims of drone attacks do you. You just use drone attacks as another stick to beat the west with, like all anti americans. Clearly you think AQ should be allowed get on with their business of planning terrorists attacks? You condemn alleged american support for AQ among the opposition in Syria, and yet you condemn when america attacks AQ as well. I suppose trying to get a logical consistant position is pointless from you or most anti americans. You just keep vacillating. Like most anti Americans, you are completely and absolutely irrational....and you have an irrational and unlimited hatred of America and I suppose the west in general. Which begs the ultimate question, if you hate the west, why do you still live here? Admit it, America and the West is a lot better than many of the undemocratic sh*tholes around the world that people like you idolise.
bumper234 wrote: » I don't hate America or the American people or the west in general and i have spent a.lot of time there on business. I do dislike America's foreign policies and i abhor the fact that they kill innocent people with impunity. If you want to bang your pro America pro war drum then beat away.
clairefontaine wrote: » I have arrived at the conclusion there is no solution to this, political or military. It's a civil war that has to rise itself out. If we, the US really wanted to help we would expedite refugee status like we do for the Cubans. But we are not doing that. I just appears to me that Obama supports the Muslim brotherhood.
realweirdo wrote: » That's fair enough. However, North Korea kill innocent people with impunity, as does China, Russia, and many other countries. They are just as bad as America in most cases. However, we rarely see around here post after post condemning the human rights abuses of these countries which are pretty bad. You'd honestly think America was the only country who kills innocent people. In any case, innocent people have always got killed during wars.
bumper234 wrote: » North Korea, Russia, China are 3 countries who don't preach to others about human rights abuses and then go out and deny others their human rights. None of those countries say lets bomb Syria, Iran North Korea because they have Nukes and chemical weapons but lets leave Israel alone even though they have CW and nukes.
realweirdo wrote: » Do you not watch the news? You can watch RT for these ones. For the last two and a half years, Putin has been preaching around the clock about how America cause trouble in the middle east, how their record is bad, human rights abuses blah blah blah. I'd imagine it's the same in China. Hugo Chavez had his own show denouncing all things American. Press TV condemns American human rights abuses around the clock. As does Cuba. As does North Korea. So what you are saying is simply not true. Every one of these countries preaches about human rights abuses and yet are just as bad themselves.
Ireland had a disastrous moral standing in the twentieth century, probably as bad as America's, whose own moral standing wasn't great. When Hitler died and the rest of the world was celebrating the end of WW2, De Valera was opening a book of condolences to the German people, to give one example.
Which begs the ultimate question, if you hate the west, why do you still live here?
I am fighting on the ground? what are you raving about man?
From day one, Russia has been the main obstruction to a peacefully negotiated solution, not America.
Like most anti Americans, you are completely and absolutely irrational....and you have an irrational and unlimited hatred of America and I suppose the west in general.
bumper234 wrote: » Are you not the guy who said RT is not a credible news source? Now it is? As for Putin preaching about America's record in the middle east.....it's pretty much spot on. Years of war many thousands dead (most of them innocent civilians) all because America wants to control the oil fields and ensure the petrodollar stays strong.
realweirdo wrote: » This is getting farcical, actually you are getting farcical. One minute you are saying Putin never preaches about human rights and now you are saying yes he does preach about human rights abuses. You're making it up as you go along and it's hard to take anything you say seriously. A tip, try to stay consistant, people will take you more seriously that way.
Eggy Baby! wrote: » Wow...you are incredibly naive. So De Valera signing Hitler's book of condolences is as bad as the sum total of American imperialism? Read up on the Phillippines, the Mexican-American wars, the Spanish American wars.
realweirdo wrote: » Convienently ignore the fact that America confronted and helped defeat three of the great evils of the 20th century Nazi Germany, Emperial Japan and the USSR. (Ireland stayed neutral). Ignore the fact that but for the US, South Korea would be a communist run sh*thole like North Korea. Ignore the fact that America is the biggest provider of humanitarian assistance in the world by far. Ignore the fact that America is about the only nation confronting Islamic terrorism, yes in a war where there is collatoral damage, but the alternative is to allow the spread of Islamofascism unchecked. It really is a case of either or in this situation. Ignore the fact that America sent the Taliban packing from large parts of Afghanistan. And basically ignore every good deed America has ever done in its history. You don't do balance do you?
clairefontaine wrote: » Yes and no. You are right but we are also fighting Saudis war by proxy (Bush 1 et all )and it appears to me that Obama supports the Muslim brotherhood.
bumper234 wrote: » America joined WW2 at the end they did not confront the Nazi's Japan's bombing of pearl harbour was over oil (pretty much like Amerca's actions these days) and they paid for it by getting nuked twice (a more evil act in most peoples books). America did not "confront" Russia it got into an arms war with it. It still fights wars with Russia by proxy (Syria these days) Ireland stayed neutral as did Switzerland....so what? America is confronting Islamic terrorism that America helped to create. America bankrolled the Taliban in Afghanistan and sent the CIA to train them. America used 9-11 as an excuse to invade Afghanistan and Iraq yet most of the 9-11 bombers were from Saudi Arabia (friends of the US) America has not gotten rid of the Taliban and of anything by bombing innocent civilians it has ensured that the Taliban will have a ready supply of volunteers for many decades to come.
realweirdo wrote: » Not really. He supports democracy. The Egyption people had a democratic election, the Muslim Brotherhood were elected to power, that should have been the end of the matter. A lot of people in Egypt were unhappy that reforms weren't happening fast enough and the army took that as a cue to carry out a coup.
