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Intercity capacity reconfiguration

TheBandicoot

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4918&p=116&n=237

For Intercity services, Iarnród Éireann is to reconfigure the Intercity railcar fleet. Currently, the 234 carriages in the fleet are configured to form 48 three-carriage trains and 15 six-carriage trains. This has lead to capacity shortages on some services and oversupply on others. The fleet will be reconfigured to form 45 four-carriage trains and 18 three-carriage trains, allowing greater flexibility in train size, with 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 and 9 carriage Intercity trains possible as result by combining train sets together. These changes will be implemented on a phased basis by year end.

So, this means that there will no longer be any single 6car sets, the only way to get a 6car formation is two three cars? I'll miss the 6car 22ks, always thought they are a very impressive sight.

This 3+4 fleet will allow for lots of interesting combinations from a trainspotting perspective. 4 car sets will also allow for improved services on the DSE. I also wonder what will happen to the 'First Class' and buffet carriages, how they will be split between the fleets. The buffet car especially will take a big chunk of seating capacity out of any 3 or 4 car set.

Very interesting times ahead for railcar gricers.

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bikeman1

TheBandicoot wrote: »

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4918&p=116&n=237

So, this means that there will no longer be any single 6car sets, the only way to get a 6car formation is two three cars? I'll miss the 6car 22ks, always thought they are a very impressive sight.

This 3+4 fleet will allow for lots of interesting combinations from a trainspotting perspective. 4 car sets will also allow for improved services on the DSE. I also wonder what will happen to the 'First Class' and buffet carriages, how they will be split between the fleets. The buffet car especially will take a big chunk of seating capacity out of any 3 or 4 car set.

Very interesting times ahead for railcar gricers.

Oh yes riveting stuff alright! I might even come out of retirement for them. A 7 car 22 set what a sight to behold.

dowlingm

Seems to me that IE have spent the last few years optimizing their network platforms for 3/6 car 22Ks (90m/176m) and are now binning it. Can a 7 car consist serve a 176m platform without SDO?

goingnowhere

Every intercity platform as well as DART + Dublin Commuter area is 165m or longer bar Rosslare line, designed for 7 coach Mk3 or 8 coach 29k

7 coach ICR is the same length as a 8 coach 29k, so go anywhere.

Only gotcha is you cannot use a 4 coach ICR on Cork local, WRC or Nenagh line services which is no bad thing really.

dowlingm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Every intercity platform as well as DART + Dublin Commuter area is 165m or longer bar Rosslare line, designed for 7 coach Mk3 or 8 coach 29k

7 coach ICR is the same length as a 8 coach 29k, so go anywhere.

Only gotcha is you cannot use a 4 coach ICR on Cork local, WRC or Nenagh line services which is no bad thing really.

Except there are 3 car 22Ks used on the first and second mentioned in recent times, in the WRC case as a link between Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Limerick runs. There are some 90m platforms on Westport too, the avoidance of which means certain loop passings cannot be done if both sets are 4+ length.

For me a lot of the deemed problems could have been addressed by just fitting SDO - which was supposed to happen YEARS ago - instead of empty 4 and 5 set sets flogging around the network doing certification runs, and even if that was actually necessary it could have been done back when 22039 (I think) was in drydock because of the split points incident. Is the reluctance because RSC decided SDO would have to be done by a guard and not a driver?

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

Except there are 3 car 22Ks used on the first and second mentioned in recent times, in the WRC case as a link between Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Limerick runs. There are some 90m platforms on Westport too, the avoidance of which means certain loop passings cannot be done if both sets are 4+ length.

For me a lot of the deemed problems could have been addressed by just fitting SDO - which was supposed to happen YEARS ago - instead of empty 4 and 5 set sets flogging around the network doing certification runs, and even if that was actually necessary it could have been done back when 22039 (I think) was in drydock because of the split points incident. Is the reluctance because RSC decided SDO would have to be done by a guard and not a driver?

would make sense, after all they wanted rid of all staff on trains apart from the driver and the odd trolly person if one is lucky

LXFlyer

goingnowhere wrote: »

Every intercity platform as well as DART + Dublin Commuter area is 165m or longer bar Rosslare line, designed for 7 coach Mk3 or 8 coach 29k

7 coach ICR is the same length as a 8 coach 29k, so go anywhere.

Only gotcha is you cannot use a 4 coach ICR on Cork local, WRC or Nenagh line services which is no bad thing really.

dowlingm wrote: »

Except there are 3 car 22Ks used on the first and second mentioned in recent times, in the WRC case as a link between Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Limerick runs. There are some 90m platforms on Westport too, the avoidance of which means certain loop passings cannot be done if both sets are 4+ length.

For me a lot of the deemed problems could have been addressed by just fitting SDO - which was supposed to happen YEARS ago - instead of empty 4 and 5 set sets flogging around the network doing certification runs, and even if that was actually necessary it could have been done back when 22039 (I think) was in drydock because of the split points incident. Is the reluctance because RSC decided SDO would have to be done by a guard and not a driver?

Personally, I have strong reservations about this plan - I would have preferred that the 5 high capacity six-piece be shorted to 4pce, while retaining the 10 6pce sets and as a result you would have:
10 x 6pce Premier Class
15 x 4pce
38 x 3pce

The current plan will result in:
10 x 4pce Premier Class
35 x 4pce
18 x 3pce

Assuming that maintenance requirements will mean 2-3 3-car sets out of service at any time, that will mean only 15 units available each day. That leaves very little wriggle room for problems.

Turning to platform lengths, people are also forgetting that there is a stopping margin that has to be allowed for - which is 5m.

Therefore, the minimum platform lengths for operating ICR sets are:

3 car - 75m
4 car - 98m
6 car - 145m
7 car - 168m

That creates serious operational issues, as the following stations cannot accommodate a 4 car train at their loop platforms:

Mayo: Castlerea and Ballyhaunis
Kerry: Rathmore
South Tipperary: Carrick-on-Suir

Therefore, for example two 4pce trains cannot cross at those stations. One of the crossing trains MUST be a 3pce train.

Also, the following platforms will be too short for 4pce sets:
Heuston Platform 1
Foxford
Cloughjordan
Birdhill
Sixmilebridge
Gort
Ardrahan
Craughwell
All East Cork stations

From a rostering perspective I can see this potentially being an absolute nightmare. If a train is rostered as a 7pce, and one of the sets goes unserviceable, and no spare sets are available (quite possible with the small number of 3pce sets), then the train may have to operate as a 3pce or 4pce - and that will mean people left behind.

Only one platform at Limerick can accommodate a 7pce train.

8pce sets realistically can operate only to Cork or Connolly-Drogheda-Dundalk. 2 x 4pce sets (splitting at Athlone) can operate to Galway/Westport, but cannot serve Clara en route.

bikeman1

lxflyer wrote: »

Personally, I have strong reservations about this plan - I would have preferred that the 5 high capacity six-piece be shorted to 4pce, while retaining the 10 6pce sets and as a result you would have:
10 x 6pce Premier Class
15 x 4pce
38 x 3pce

The current plan will result in:
10 x 4pce Premier Class
35 x 4pce
18 x 3pce

Assuming that maintenance requirements will mean 2-3 3-car sets out of service at any time, that will mean only 15 units available each day. That leaves very little wriggle room for problems.

Turning to platform lengths, people are also forgetting that there is a stopping margin that has to be allowed for - which is 5m.

Therefore, the minimum platform lengths for operating ICR sets are:

3 car - 75m
4 car - 98m
6 car - 145m
7 car - 168m

That creates serious operational issues, as the following stations cannot accommodate a 4 car train at their loop platforms:

Mayo: Castlerea and Ballyhaunis
Kerry: Rathmore
South Tipperary: Carrick-on-Suir

Therefore, for example two 4pce trains cannot cross at those stations. One of the crossing trains MUST be a 3pce train.

Also, the following platforms will be too short for 4pce sets:
Heuston Platform 1
Foxford
Cloughjordan
Birdhill
Sixmilebridge
Gort
Ardrahan
Craughwell
All East Cork stations

From a rostering perspective I can see this potentially being an absolute nightmare. If a train is rostered as a 7pce, and one of the sets goes unserviceable, and no spare sets are available (quite possible with the small number of 3pce sets), then the train may have to operate as a 3pce or 4pce - and that will mean people left behind.

Only one platform at Limerick can accommodate a 7pce train.

8pce sets realistically can operate only to Cork or Connolly-Drogheda-Dundalk. 2 x 4pce sets (splitting at Athlone) can operate to Galway/Westport, but cannot serve Clara en route.

Some very good points there. This could all have been solved if they ordered them with selective door operation in the first place or at least got it installed.

How much staff time and effort is going to be wasted changing all these sets around. Re-programming them. Testing them. Route clearing them. Re working all the diagrams and links etc?

Seems like a huge waste when the problems listed above cause great concern?

corktina

Cost cutting in action...we've also seen it with the Dart....where next I wonder?

Jamie2k9

7 coach sets limit trains crossing at certain stations and any sort of delay that sometimes trains are allowed to cross at the following stations won't be possible.

I'm sure we can expect changes by the end of 2014 and I expect that most of the first class sets will be back to normal.

They will get some savings mid week but other days operations will increase as plenty of 6 coach services at weekend are needed and 3 or 4 won't do so they will have no choice in most cases to increase from 6 to 7 as they have left themselves without enough 3 car sets to make 6.

corktina

I fear that what we shall actually see is the withdrawal or storing of large parts of the fleet, with savings being achieved (on paper at least) in servicing and spares costs on the remaining fleet.

What does the future hold for the fleet I wonder?
ICRs operating all Cork line services would be a saving I would imagine if they could dispense with all the 201s
Older railcars must be in jeopardy, as must some DARTs

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

I fear that what we shall actually see is the withdrawal or storing of large parts of the fleet, with savings being achieved (on paper at least) in servicing and spares costs on the remaining fleet.

What does the future hold for the fleet I wonder?
ICRs operating all Cork line services would be a saving I would imagine if they could dispense with all the 201s
Older railcars must be in jeopardy, as must some DARTs

I don't think that is what will happen - you will still need most of the ICR fleet in service, and virtually the entire DART fleet (excepting the mothballed 8200 Class) is out at peak times.

What may happen is some more Mk 4 sets may be withdrawn from Cork, with the strong rumour being that they will facilitate the refurbishment of the De Dietrich stock on Belfast.

corktina

Well as far as I can see, there's a chance that the railcar fleet may be reduced in formation like the DART fleet, together with other savings such as service cuts and line closures . There are I believe several ICRs not in service currently and some Mk4s in store.

IE are under pressure to reduce their losses, so something has to give.

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

Well as far as I can see, there's a chance that the railcar fleet may be reduced in formation like the DART fleet, together with other savings such as service cuts and line closures . There are I believe several ICRs not in service currently and some Mk4s in store.

IE are under pressure to reduce their losses, so something has to give.

They are of course under pressure, and some sets that are currently 6pce could operate as 4pce sets, which would deliver cost savings.

If ICRs take over more Cork links, then I would not see there much room for any more sets being stored.

Jamie2k9

ICR's taking over the Cork route just wouldn't be possible on key days of the week, no matter what way it's done the capacity just wouldn't be there to go around.

As for MarkIV's heading up North what about TPWS not being in the DVT.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

ICR's taking over the Cork route just wouldn't be possible on key days of the week, no matter what way it's done the capacity just wouldn't be there to go around.

As for MarkIV's heading up North what about TPWS not being in the DVT.

Eh, there's going to be the possibly of 7pce and 8pce ICRs - I think that will sort that capacity issue on Cork out.

TPWS can be retro-fitted to the Mark 4 stock - that's hardly an insurmountable problem.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

Eh, there's going to be the possibly of 7pce and 8pce ICRs - I think that will sort that capacity issue on Cork out.

he didn't mean that ICRS couldn't meet the capacity requirements if a couple of 3/4 pieces were put together, he meant that theirs not enough units to go round to cover the cork route as well as the current routes

lxflyer wrote: »

TPWS can be retro-fitted to the Mark 4 stock - that's hardly an insurmountable problem.

absolutely

Jamie2k9

he didn't mean that ICRS couldn't meet the capacity requirements if a couple of 3/4 pieces were put together, he meant that theirs not enough units to go round to cover the cork route as well as the current routes

Indeed as it currently stands on the Heuston on Fridays some very busy services are short capacity because of the current 22's on Cork route. There will not be any major scope for capacity reductions across the network once the 4 car sets come into operation on Fridays so it will be impossible to get Cork all ICR as well and even if there have all the 22's in service they still wouldn't manage it.

LXFlyer

I never said that Cork would be all ICR.

I think you will certainly see more trips being ICR operated though on that route.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

I never said that Cork would be all ICR.

I think you will certainly see more trips being ICR operated though on that route.

Sorry my mistake however but they will still be very stretched on Fridays. As it is they could possibly spare 1 Mark4 set to allow one Belfast set be taken out of service at a time for works.

If the Mark4's do make it up north it will be a surprise as the general attitude to the Belfast route is once the border comes neither operator cares what happens once a train passes it and its out of their control.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Sorry my mistake however but they will still be very stretched on Fridays. As it is they could possibly spare 1 Mark4 set to allow one Belfast set be taken out of service at a time for works.

If the Mark4's do make it up north it will be a surprise as the general attitude to the Belfast route is once the border comes neither operator cares what happens once a train passes it and its out of their control.

There are actually spare Mark4 sets as it is!!!

corktina

my concern is that the train service will be tailored to a reduced fleet and frequency reductions, short formations and line closures will result.

The lesson from the past is that reducing the service does not necessarily reduce the costs.

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

my concern is that the train service will be tailored to a reduced fleet and frequency reductions, short formations and line closures will result.

The lesson from the past is that reducing the service does not necessarily reduce the costs.

I genuinely don't think that service reductions will follow from this - you will have the save number of units overall as before.

You will undoubtedly see capacity reductions on certain services some of which could do with it, while other trains will be longer than at present.

corktina

I hope you are right and I am wrong

corktina

see thread on main C&T forum..... :-(

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

see thread on main C&T forum..... :-(

I do see it - and until I see or hear anything to the contrary officially then I'm not going to take it as gospel. Anything but.

corktina

i'm not either, but it is very worrying

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

i'm not either, but it is very worrying

No it is not.

Frankly you should know better than to believe those "a mate told me" stories.

I've read so many of them over the years on the internet that I could write a book about them and frankly virtually every one of them has turned out to be nonsense, but in the meantime has caused people completely unnecessary concern or worry and wasted their time.

Until you see an NTA consultation paper about this, you can forget it.

And as far as I am concerned, that won't be happening.

corktina

head in sand time then eh?

these revelations coupled with the changes to the DART and ICR fleet add up to something more than a rumour perhaps. As I said , I hope I'm wrong

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

head in sand time then eh?

these revelations coupled with the changes to the DART and ICR fleet add up to something more than a rumour perhaps. As I said , I hope I'm wrong

They are not revelations. They are nothing but rumours.

There is a hell of a difference.

Frankly people need to take these things with a grain of salt.

JeffK88

13-09-13 ....... RIP IE