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Discussion thread for those who've read all the books?

December2012

Is there one?

I have a few questions but not important enough to start / grow threads by themselves.

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podgemonster

Do you think Martin will go for a JK Rowling esque final set chapter 20 years later with the Lord of Winterfell Rickon looking down on his sons Eddard, Robb and Cateyln as they play in the yard.

Unknowst to him, Bran is watching via the Heart Tree and Nymeria roams the forest. Finally a raven appears from Queen Dany and King Jon requesting that he comes to Kings Landing to be hand of the King, following the death of Lord Tyrion from mysterious circumstances to which Lord Rickon replies "Fúck No!"

Rosy Posy

Just wondering what others take on Ramsay's letter to Jon- is he bluffing when he says Stannis' head is on a spike on the gates of Winterfell. I know that

he's alive and well and holed up in that town in Theon's chapter excerpt from tWoW, but the chronology in the books isn't always linear.

I wonder if Melisandre will reanimate Jon and take him as her new Azor Ahai? She seems to be losing faith in Stannis.

[Deleted User]

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Just wondering what others take on Ramsay's letter to Jon- is he bluffing when he says Stannis' head is on a spike on the gates of Winterfell. I know that
he's alive and well and holed up in that town in Theon's chapter excerpt from tWoW, but the chronology in the books isn't always linear.

I wonder if Melisandre will reanimate Jon and take him as her new Azor Ahai? She seems to be losing faith in Stannis.

I'd be nearly 100% he is bluffing.

I also think Jon died but Warg'd in to ghost before he passed

Mr.Prodston

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Just wondering what others take on Ramsay's letter to Jon- is he bluffing when he says Stannis' head is on a spike on the gates of Winterfell. I know that
he's alive and well and holed up in that town in Theon's chapter excerpt from tWoW, but the chronology in the books isn't always linear.

I wonder if Melisandre will reanimate Jon and take him as her new Azor Ahai? She seems to be losing faith in Stannis.

The first thought I had when I read it was that Mance had a lot to do with that letter. It references "Bastard" a lot which Mance would know needles Jon. Now Ramsay is Ramsay but I don't think he'd have said that by himself.

Whether Mance wrote the whole letter and sent it having staged some kind of coup seems unlikely even though it was my initial thought. I still think he had something to do with the letter as if you didn't "know" Ramsay sent it it read like Mance in my eyes. Of course I'm probably wrong :pac:

Gbear

My take on the letter is that the following things have happened:

WoW

According to Theon's released chapter (I think), Aenys Frey dies when his horse fell into a trap outside the gates of Winterfelll as Bolton's forces leave to attack Stannis (because they're all about to start murdering each other).
So that leaves Hosteen Frey in charge, who's thick.

The Freys and Manderleys and maybe the other Northmen leave Winterfell, with the various Lords, Ladies and the Boltons and their soldiers left behind.

All the armies march on the fishing village. Stannis has made the pond/lake into a death trap.
The Freys and perhaps the Karstarks or whoever else is loyal to the Boltons are butchered.
Stannis sends a few of the Manderleys back pretending that they're the only survivors. He gives them his sword ("I have his magic sword") and whatever convincing details are required.

They then open the gates and let the combined armies of Stannis through and they kill errbody who needs to be killed, although maybe one of the Boltons might get away. It'd be too neat to just capture Ramsey and Roose and execute them.

As for the 2nd half of the letter, I think he just tortured the info out of Mance.

I don't think that there's any more information required.

It's possible that Ramsey isn't bluffing and Stannis did send "Arya" to the wall and just excecuted Theon, and Stannis really was killed.

I think those 2 outcomes are the most likely. The only reason we would doubt that Ramsey is telling the truth is for meta reasons to do with how Martin writes as opposed to the content of the letter itself. There's nothing fantastical about it.

My thinking on Jon is that like Coldhands (that's not confirmed but I'm inferring it) Jon will warg back into his own dead body (after warging into Ghost).
If Jon dies it kinda removes the possiblity that he will have a happy ending. If he's a wight that functions similarly to his old self, he'll still never be able to have kids or any of that jazz, so I reckon that the Wall will be his lot.

Shout Dust

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Varys seems to be the only person throughout the whole saga that is more concerned with the safety of the relam, rather than personal glory and he will sabotage the Lannisters to achieve this.

Don't agree with that at all, Varys seems like a Targeryen diehard. He supported the mad king throughout, and apparently rescued his son to eventually retake his throne. He's trying to involve Dorne in the war, which means his meddling will have brought war and destruction to every part of Westeros apart from the Vale (which may end up in civil war with Littlefingers involvement, and possibly could have joined if Lysa was more loyal to her family. He specifically said he didn't want to stop Cersei ruining everything and wants the Tyrells and Lannisters at each other throats.

He's going out of his way to weaken the realm rather than save it.

podgemonster wrote: »

Do you think Martin will go for a JK Rowling esque final set chapter 20 years later with the Lord of Winterfell Rickon looking down on his sons Eddard, Robb and Cateyln as they play in the yard.

Unknowst to him, Bran is watching via the Heart Tree and Nymeria roams the forest. Finally a raven appears from Queen Dany and King Jon requesting that he comes to Kings Landing to be hand of the King, following the death of Lord Tyrion from mysterious circumstances to which Lord Rickon replies "Fúck No!"

I think he'll go a thousand years into the future with somebody telling stories about a 3 headed dragon and the dead rising, with nobody believing them and dismissing it as just a tale.

For me Westeros looks open to some outside influence coming in. Every part of it will be crippled by war and winter. It will probably become a sideshow anyway with the main battle seeming to be between fire and ice. We're not told much about the Ice side, but everyone seems to be against them, from the Dragons to humans to the Children of the Forest.

I'd love if they could release an episode on April Fools day with a leprechaun flying a ufo coming in and randomly blowing everything up.

Paddy Cow

Shout Dust wrote: »

Don't agree with that at all, Varys seems like a Targeryen diehard. He supported the mad king throughout, and apparently rescued his son to eventually retake his throne. He's trying to involve Dorne in the war, which means his meddling will have brought war and destruction to every part of Westeros apart from the Vale (which may end up in civil war with Littlefingers involvement, and possibly could have joined if Lysa was more loyal to her family. He specifically said he didn't want to stop Cersei ruining everything and wants the Tyrells and Lannisters at each other throats.

He's going out of his way to weaken the realm rather than save it.

Good points, now I have to rethink Varys. What I was basing my opinion of him on was when he was killed Kevan and Kevan asked him why, he said it was because there was someone more suited to the throne who hadn't grown up in the lap of luxury being taught that being King was his entitlement and so would be a better King. It's been a long time since I read the books so I've probably forgotton a lot of the finer points.

I wonder how different the situation would be right now if Robert hadn't kept the Kingsguard and counsel and had killed them all instead?

Gbear

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I wonder how different the situation would be right now if Robert hadn't kept the Kingsguard and counsel and had killed them all instead?

I'd imagine it would've just made it easier for the Lannisters to seize power.

Robert wasn't a politician. He preferred to placate Cersei and put her relatives and minions in positions of power rather than get grief from her.

So you probably would've had a load of Lannisters in the Kingsguard and Small Council.

podgemonster

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Good points, now I have to rethink Varys. What I was basing my opinion of him on was when he was killed Kevan and Kevan asked him why, he said it was because there was someone more suited to the throne who hadn't grown up in the lap of luxury being taught that being King was his entitlement and so would be a better King. It's been a long time since I read the books so I've probably forgotton a lot of the finer points.

I wonder how different the situation would be right now if Robert hadn't kept the Kingsguard and counsel and had killed them all instead?

Well i think Paddy and Shout both are kind of right. Varys actions are based on what he feels is "good for the realm". However as a Targarayan loyalist what he sees as good to the realm is a Dragon on the iron throne.

Its like what Robert said in season one, what is more powerful 5 or 1. The 5 being 5 isolated individual armies or 1 army (a fist) with one leader and one goal. With divided Kingdoms, sensible Lords should bend the knee easily preventing less bloodshed. Varys wants to preserve the realm for the future ruler but at the same time ensure that at the time of their landing that Westoros is in disarray but at the same time not a corpse scattered wasteland. Less bloodshed means the 7 Kingdoms should prosper quickly under the new management.

Varys is insitgating and stirring fueds which weaken westorsi loyalties. Keeping Cersei as regent ensure conflict with the Tyrells. He tries to save Ned to prevent all out war with the North in AGOT yet doesn't intervene in Ned initial capture or in Jon Arryn assasination, he warns Ned of the plot to kill Robert, he supports Tyrion in his defence of Kings Landing. His actions seem eradict but its all part of his deception. I do feel everything he does is preciously calculated.

The only thing Varys can't figure out is Littlefinger.

lynski

Just finished dance and I am befuddled (house is a disaster zone though) anyway I think I might be alone in this but I think the next conflict is going to be religious, with the septons armies ( who is the new high septon?) and the red gods followers, interesting that his nemesis is called the other? It will not matter too much who claims a throne and where if there are armies of the seven and the red and others slugging it out from north to south. And boat loads arriving from Essos where the pale mare is decimating. Just my thoughts.
Still trying to bend my head around Brianne turning up, just spent almost a whole book mourning her and then boom she is back. I think I know how but really?
Last ramblings are to do with the ironborn - if they are the drowned men, returned to life by their priests, can they become wights? What is dead may never die and all that? Could they in the end be the saviours of the kingdom when all around them the others are making the people into wights?

Rosy Posy

lynski wrote: »

Still trying to bend my head around Brianne turning up, just spent almost a whole book mourning her and then boom she is back. I think I know how but really?

My guess would be that she reneged and agreed to go after Jaime for Catelyn/Stoneheart. This makes me think that perhaps she has killed him and the Lannisters are all but extinct (justice for the Reynes and the Tarbecks), presuming the prophecy will be completed and Tommen and Marcella will die before Cersei.

lynski wrote: »

Last ramblings are to do with the ironborn - if they are the drowned men, returned to life by their priests, can they become wights? What is dead may never die and all that? Could they in the end be the saviours of the kingdom when all around them the others are making the people into wights?

My take on it was that they aren't actually killed, just resuscitated and the what is dead may never die stuff is just bravado/religious mumbo jumbo. They are certainly mortal and capable of death.

chickenboy

Rosy Posy wrote: »

My guess would be that she reneged and agreed to go after Jaime for Catelyn/Stoneheart. This makes me think that perhaps she has killed him and the Lannisters are all but extinct (justice for the Reynes and the Tarbecks), presuming the prophecy will be completed and Tommen and Marcella will die before Cersei.

From interviews he's done,

Martin confirmed that the word Brienne shouted as she was about to be hanged was sword as opposed to noose.

It implies that she's promised to bring Jamie to Lady Stoneheart, although whether she'll save Jaime to make up for the bear pit remains to be seen.

stevenmu

Rosy Posy wrote: »

My take on it was that they aren't actually killed, just resuscitated and the what is dead may never die stuff is just bravado/religious mumbo jumbo. They are certainly mortal and capable of death.

+1. When they described the ceremony in detail in the books, it was clear that they are "drowning" people and then basically just giving them mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. The person isn't actually dead, they are just unconscious and not breathing. Because they don't really understand biology, they don't understand that the person isn't actually dead, and they don't understand how mouth-to-mouth is reviving them, so they believe that the priest is acting as a proxy for the drowned god and magically breathing life back into them.

One really interesting thing is that they hint that a lot of people don't survive the process, which is what you would expect when you deliberately drown people and try to resuscitate them. But they have said that the Damphair/Aeron Greyjoy has never lost anyone, which might imply that he has some genuine magic ability.

It's a shame that the TV show has kind of skimmed over this so far, when they showed the ceremony it was really just a quick dunk of the head under water, similar to baptism.

Dubhlinner

stevenmu wrote: »

+1. When they described the ceremony in detail in the books, it was clear that they are "drowning" people and then basically just giving them mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. The person isn't actually dead, they are just unconscious and not breathing. Because they don't really understand biology, they don't understand that the person isn't actually dead, and they don't understand how mouth-to-mouth is reviving them, so they believe that the priest is acting as a proxy for the drowned god and magically breathing life back into them.

One really interesting thing is that they hint that a lot of people don't survive the process, which is what you would expect when you deliberately drown people and try to resuscitate them. But they have said that the Damphair/Aeron Greyjoy has never lost anyone, which might imply that he has some genuine magic ability.

It's a shame that the TV show has kind of skimmed over this so far, when they showed the ceremony it was really just a quick dunk of the head under water, similar to baptism.

Was Theon drowned in this manner in the book? Thought the first I read of it was in feast

Gbear

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Was Theon drowned in this manner in the book? Thought the first I read of it was in feast

I think it says it was done to him when he was a boy.

thegreatiam

Gbear wrote: »

I think it says it was done to him when he was a boy.

does he have to get it done again now he's a girl?

[Deleted User]

Finished Games of Thrones for the 2nd time at the weekend and already enjoying A Clash of Kings.

It's amazing the amount of small gems you get in the books that you don't get to see on the show. For example the part were Cat is talking to her father before he gets too sick to talk at the end of thrones.

Mousewar

Just finished them last night (for the first time).

Jon

When's the next book due?

[Deleted User]

Mousewar wrote: »

Just finished them last night (for the first time).

Jon

When's the next book due?

But is he dead?

Next year, if not I am going on a rampage

Mousewar

Well he got stabbed. Don't know how these northerners do it but when I stab someone they die 90% of the time every time.

Paddy Cow

Mousewar wrote: »

Well he got stabbed. Don't know how these northerners do it but when I stab someone they die 90% of the time every time.

There are options:

1 He's dead.

2 He's not dead.

3 He wargs into Ghost just before he dies.

4 Melisandre brings him back to life.

I'd say he's not done with Jon yet. We still have to find out who his mother was. Most people think that he is the son of

Lyanna and Rheager.

Shout Dust

I'd hate if was brought back from the dead, it'd be my least favourite scenario out of the ones you've listed. Ideally for me he's blacks out and he's saved, although it's still not a great solution. For him to die would just leave too many things unresolved and warging into Ghost is just boring

Gbear

Shout Dust wrote: »

I'd hate if was brought back from the dead, it'd be my least favourite scenario out of the ones you've listed. Ideally for me he's blacks out and he's saved, although it's still not a great solution. For him to die would just leave too many things unresolved and warging into Ghost is just boring

It's difficult to pick out any of the above that doesn't feel stupid tbh.
Warging ghost option is the least bad option.

If he just dies, well then we've lost a huge character and one of the only people trying to do the right thing and mostly succeeding.

If he's just alive and gets better, it renders the cliffhanger pointless and cheap.

If he gets brought back to life the whole death thing starts to seem like an inconvenience rather than a hammer blow.

At least if he wargs Ghost it's because of a fairly unique set of circumstances - him being a warg and perhaps being on the wall and a Stark would have something to do with it too.

Mousewar

The warg thing is probably right. His last thought and last word was Ghost.

But to be honest I'd be much happier if George just stopped stabbing Starks. It's not on frankly.

[Deleted User]

What if Melisandre died while bringing him back to life?

Paddy Cow

Liam O wrote: »

What if Melisandre died while bringing him back to life?

Would anyone care if Melisandre died?

Gbear

Liam O wrote: »

What if Melisandre died while bringing him back to life?

That'd at least satisfy the whole "death must pay for life" equation. But unless she'd already decided that he was actually the Prince that was Promised it'd be hard to understand how she could justify it to herself. We've had chapters from her POV already and there's nothing to suggest her support in Stannis is waning yet.

She'd have to do a lot of figuring out very quickly for that to work.

GerB40

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Would anyone care if Melisandre died?

Well if you consider the fact that Thoros was just a heavy drinkin, whõre ridin chancer who barely believed in the red god, then brought Beric back to life (which surprised even him) one can just imagine the potential that Melisandre has. She has more faith than Thoros did but she's sh1te at interpreting the messages from the flames. Once she gets her shít together she could be hugely important as the story progresses.

GetInTheHole!

Hello Folks..

I'm reading the books for the second time now and really enjoying them at a much slower pace to take in as much info as I as possibly can.

The first time around - I was always in a such a hurry to see what happened - I missed out on a lot of the smaller details which now second time around seem so much more relevant.

I've finished Game of Thrones now and have just started Clash of Kings.

In GOT - the one thing that stuck out second time around was Sansa going to Cersei to tell her of Neds plan to send them to Winterfell which effectively escalated Cerseis own actions.
FFS - Sansa!

Also - there is some detailed reference to the Isle of Faces - Old Gods etc. but we never here much more.
I wonder if this will play a part before the story is told?

Anyways - as I go through the rest of the books I will post up some stuff here that I think mat be of relevance to the bigger picture..

Paddy Cow

GetInTheHole! wrote: »

In GOT - the one thing that stuck out second time around was Sansa going to Cersei to tell her of Neds plan to send them to Winterfell which effectively escalated Cerseis own actions.
FFS - Sansa!

Ironically Sansa was desperate to stay in King's Landing and then was desperate to leave!