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Nurses know medicine like air hostesses know aviation

jr22

In my experience of working in hospitals, nurses are often quicker than a consultant to give you unsolicited medical advice, often with a fag in one hand and a pint in the other (...after work obviously). On a lot of the HSE sites I've worked on in the past, the proportion of nurses who smoke and are overweight seems crazily high. Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to slate nurses. They do amazing work, it just seems that they don't, in my experience, link their professional knowledge to their own health choices in the same way that many physios or doctors do. Just recently, myself and the other half have gotten some seriously off the wall advice about breastfeeding from nurse friends (...all formula advocates, the majority of whom didn't breast feed at all).

Do nurses fully engage with medicine?

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KDII

What kind of unsolicited advice are we talking here? Were these nurses talking about their own experience of breastfeeding? Breastfeeding does not work for everyone, the last thing a stressed out new parent needs is high horsing about how they feed their baba.

Also of note that the general nursing degree devotes a tiny percentage of time to midwifery and child health etc. Midwifery is a different job and breastfeeding is as foreign to me, a qualified nurse, as nursing an acutely unwell adult is to a midwife. This is despite a brief stint of clinical experience in a maternity hospital and rote learning and regurgitating a question on midwifery in my second year exams.

Also, in terms of patient education you often can't do much better than a clinical nurse specialist. The work they do with patients with chronic illnesses in completely undervalued.

I Heart Internet

Like in most other profesions, nurses, for the most part, are absolutely dediated and committed to caring for people.

I once hooked up with a nurse (not in Ireland), she insisted I take her temperature.

gramar

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I once hooked up with a nurse (not in Ireland), she insisted I take her temperature.

Did you stick your 'thermometer' in her mouth, up her aras or were you feeling kinky and slipped it into her armpit?

jr22

tallus wrote: »

Having been in hospital and experienced the post operative and pre operative treatment from nurses, I have nothing but the absolute height of respect for Nurses in general, and the nursing profession.
They went above and beyond the call of duty. I'd go so far as to say its more of a vocation than a job.
That's my experience.

I've met a few sound air hostesses, they gave me some great cans of coke and lottery tickets. THey were toppers. I wouldn't like to be a passenger if they were flying a plane though.

drkpower

jr22 wrote: »

In the absence of any known scientific literature on the sh!teness of the medical advice of nurses here's what you get. My experience of it.

Single case studies are ten a penny in medicine.

People's experiences are 100 a penny. As is yours.

However, there is actually objective evidence that nurses are trained to know quite a lot about medicine; it is a different kind of knowledge and not as complete as a doctors, but it is significant nonetheless.

So, when we balance your experience versus what we objectively know about nursing education/training, the scale is weighted very much against you. A good PhD student would know to re-consider their view, and seek further evidence before coming to any conlusions.

Cienciano

jr22 wrote: »

In my experience of working in hospitals, nurses are often quicker than a consultant to give you unsolicited medical advice, often with a fag in one hand and a pint in the other (...after work obviously). On a lot of the HSE sites I've worked on in the past, the proportion of nurses who smoke and are overweight seems crazily high. Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to slate nurses. They do amazing work, it just seems that they don't, in my experience, link their professional knowledge to their own health choices in the same way that many physios or doctors do. Just recently, myself and the other half have gotten some seriously off the wall advice about breastfeeding from nurse friends (...all formula advocates, the majority of whom didn't breast feed at all).

Do nurses fully engage with medicine?

I was over in Ashford Castle a few years ago and there was a conference on for heart surgeons/specialists. When the conference was over, about 50 of them went outside for a smoke.
As long as they can do their job, it makes zero difference what lifestyle choices they make.

jr22

drkpower wrote: »

People's experiences are 100 a penny. As is yours.

However, there is actually objective evidence that nurses are trained to know quite a lot about medicine; it is a different kind of knowledge and not as complete as a doctors, but it is significant nonetheless. .

Nurses are trained to know enough about medicine to be nurses, that is the objective evidence. To compare the training of nurses to that of doctors or to equate the two is laughable.

bradyle

I have a cousin whose a nurse. She's lovely great craic but I would always have considered her a but ditzy. She would tell these stories about her day in work that really made you think she might have gotten her nursing degree free with a bag of crisps. I remember saying if I was ever sick and seen her walking into my ward I'd somehow get the energy to run in the opposite direction.

Then my sister got sick and was admitted to her hospital, not her ward but still she'd obvs come visit and have the craic with us, however the minute a doctor or a nurse that was treating my sister came in she became someone else fully serious and professional she'd always ask what tablets my sister had been given that day and check the charts and everything she knew exactly what she was at...she just didnt maybe show it around us.

Made me realise just becuase some one can be a bit silly or something in their private life does not mean they are like that when they're working. A nurse and any professional really can do what ever they fcuk when they're off the clock as long as they are responsible when they're working (which I'd say 99.9% are) who gives a fcuk like!

steddyeddy

OP knowing medicine is not the same as practicing a healthy lifestyle.

carol clery

jr22 wrote: »

In my experience of working in hospitals, nurses are often quicker than a consultant to give you unsolicited medical advice, often with a fag in one hand and a pint in the other (...after work obviously). On a lot of the HSE sites I've worked on in the past, the proportion of nurses who smoke and are overweight seems crazily high. Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to slate nurses. They do amazing work, it just seems that they don't, in my experience, link their professional knowledge to their own health choices in the same way that many physios or doctors do. Just recently, myself and the other half have gotten some seriously off the wall advice about breastfeeding from nurse friends (...all formula advocates, the majority of whom didn't breast feed at all).

Do nurses fully engage with medicine?

lets clarify this please - are these friends nurses or midwives?

asking a nurse for their opinion on breastfeeding is like asking a car mechanic their opinion on a jet engine - they may have a basic knowledge of the subject but thats it.

i would suggest you try to scrounge your free advice from other sources....

my other half is a qualified RN, a qualified midwife and a qualified lactation consultant. i guarantee you they would have a vastly superior knowledge in these fields than the doctors in the hospital.

my other half has regularly corrected the doctors on dosages as well.

i cant believe doctors are still being held up on the pedestal like the way we used to venerate the clergy in this country. THEY'RE NOT GODS!!!

jr22

carol clery wrote: »

lets clarify this please - are these friends nurses or midwives?

asking a nurse for their opinion on breastfeeding is like asking a car mechanic their opinion on a jet engine - they may have a basic knowledge of the subject but thats it.

i would suggest you try to scrounge your free advice from other sources....

my other half is a qualified RN, a qualified midwife and a qualified lactation consultant. i guarantee you they would have a vastly superior knowledge in these fields than the doctors in the hospital.

my other half has regularly corrected the doctors on dosages as well.

i cant believe doctors are still being held up on the pedestal like the way we used to venerate the clergy in this country. THEY'RE NOT GODS!!!

The nurses are friends, and the problem with the advice is it is NEVER asked for, never mind scrounged!

We met lactation consultant who was a great help and gave us a major boost when times were tough, I'm sure your other half kicks ass. The advice was absolute gold.

Problem is with the sh!t unsolicited advice from nurses who reckon they have the credentials to dole it out. Read the thread, there's more examples.

Stone Deaf 4evr

hfallada wrote: »

OP what's your point? A nurse with a 4 year degree and master often knows more than a GP on certain cancers. Plenty of doctors smoke and eat ****ty food. 90% of smokers start to smoke before the age of 18 therefore before becoming a nurse.

There is plenty of air hosts who can land a plane just as well as a pilot.

woah woah woah,

so you'd be happy enough to hear over the intercom "DING DONG, ladies and gentlement his is your captain speaking. Today mary is going to be landing the plane in celebration of her celebrating 15 years with the airline cabin crew"

Markcheese

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

We have a proud history of obese Health ministers.

Before Mary Harney we had michael Martin, tall, skinny, doesn't drink exercises....
And he was F (f)all good as well...

osarusan

jr22 wrote: »

Not necessarily, it might have no basis in reality at all.

It was this perjorative sense of anecdotal that I took exception to.

Then it's not anecdotal evidence, it's making stuff up.

Just as your anecdotal evidence might be just making stuff up.

wicklowstevo

jr22 wrote: »

I spent 5+ years working as a care worker and nurse's aid.

Bed baths, crap wiping and long shifts came with the territory. I don't see how this experience, or that of a nurse in a similar position confers the right to give unsolicited medically suspect advice with an expectation that people should thank me and smile.

sure don't smile and be polite then your entitled to be a bell end if you want ,god knows from your comments you seem to have lots of practice. your highly qualified brother and sister properly make you feel inferior , still in collage eh ?

jr22

wicklowstevo wrote: »

sure don't smile and be polite then your entitled to be a bell end if you want ,god knows from your comments you seem to have lots of practice. your highly qualified brother and sister properly make you feel inferior , still in collage eh ?

I think you've missed the point there Stevo. The advice is the issue, not the smiling or politeness, try and read the original post.

Have you been to collage (sic) yourself? I can't see how being in education could be used as an insult by anyone only the most seriously mentally compromised.

drkpower

jr22 wrote: »

Nurses are trained to know enough about medicine to be nurses, that is the objective evidence. To compare the training of nurses to that of doctors or to equate the two is laughable.

Just as well i didnt then; in fact, i contrasted them. Good lad.

Of course, there are many grades of nurses and many branches of medicine/nursing into which they are trained. A nurse practitioner with a particular interest in pulmonary hypertension, for instance, is likely to know far more than your typical GP or orthopaedic surgeon on the subject.

But in any case, what we have established is that your evidence is a few personal experiences and stories you heard from family and friends; the other side's evidence is a detailed curriculum supervised and regulated by a statutory body that has been in existence in various guises for a century.

In all that you have learned during your PhD, which do you think is the more compelling evidentially?

jr22

osarusan wrote: »

Then it's not anecdotal evidence, it's making stuff up.

Just as your anecdotal evidence might be just making stuff up.

Is the evidence I'm using anecdotal? Yes, but it's not made up. Anecdotal evidence can be made up and still referred to by that term. That's my point. Check the definition of anecdotal here.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/anecdotal

We are on a discussion board here boss, don't expect the rigours of science, you'll be disappointed.

osarusan

jr22 wrote: »

Is the evidence I'm using anecdotal? Yes, but it's not made up. Anecdotal evidence can be made up and still referred to by that term. That's my point.

My point is that anybody who makes up anecdotal evidence is going to insist they didn't make it up.

And to respond to the gist of your first 2 sentences:

jr22 wrote: »

That's my experience, it's not anecdotal, it's just what I've come across in a range of situations.

Cienciano

jr22 wrote: »

We are on a discussion board here boss, don't expect the rigours of science, you'll be disappointed.

That's why everyone should ignore your stupid OP.

jr22

drkpower wrote: »

Just as well i didnt then; in fact, i contrasted them. Good lad.

By weighing the training of nurses against that of doctors, whether to compare or contrast the two, you have regarded them as similar. Therefore you have in effect equated them. This is laughable. I laughed.

equate (ɪˈkweɪt )

Definitions

verb

to make or regard as equivalent or similar, esp in order to compare or balance

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/equate

jr22

Cienciano wrote: »

That's why everyone should ignore your stupid OP.

No-one is stopping you from doing that. If you're doing it on the grounds that it's not scientific enough though that would be silly.

osarusan

jr22 wrote: »

By weighing the training of nurses against that of doctors, whether to compare or contrast the two, you have regarded them as similar. Therefore you have in effect equated them.

So by pointing out how their training is different, he has equated the two?

You haven't any idea what you're talking about.

tosspot15

jr22 wrote: »

Another nurse I know, a triage nurse, spends the bulk of his spare time quibbling with the diagnoses of consultants.

I spent a fairly scary night in hospital in the UK with an arrhythmia (atrial fibrillation) a few years back. I'd never heard the term until that night. All has been well since and I was back in action pretty much immediately after follow-up checks with consultant cardiologist and heart ultrasound etc.

Anyways, someone mentioned the term atrial fibrillation regarding a parent of theirs at a wedding and it sparked the sh!tty memory of the night in hospital so I mentioned my experience of a few years previous.

Well Jesus wept. I had to endure an evening being lectured by this guy, telling me that I was a hypochondriac and could not possibly have had this type of arrhythmia, that it was almost certainly just a panic attack. The cardiologist/ doctors/ nurses/ everyone was wrong (....at a University teaching hospital).

Bear in my mind that this guy is a triage nurse in an understaffed hospital in the South West of Ireland and the impact potential of his ignorance and arrogance is pretty fecking scary.

Some people are arseholes. Every profession in the world has idiots, arseholes, and people that are just shít at their job and hasnt a clue! This goes without saying for EVERY job. Doesnt matter if they studied 8 years in medical school, or are a nurse with experience in the Emergency Department.

Luckily, those people are in the minority and most doctors and nurses are fantastic at what they do, and dont get enough praise.

I know a few nurses, and they seem to know their stuff and are highly professional. But even they will admit, that if they're having a particularly ****ty day or are in a bad mood that they can do some stuff wrong or are unable to function to their best ability while working in the hospital.

jr22

osarusan wrote: »

My point is that anybody who makes up anecdotal evidence is going to insist they didn't make it up.

Well there you go. Short of weighing a representative sample of the nursing population of the country, sniffing them for the smell of fags and asking them to give me you snippets of medical advice, tis' going to be tough to bring this to The Lancet for sure.

osarusan wrote: »

So by pointing out how their training is different, he has equated the two?

You haven't any idea what you're talking about.

If you reread the definition of 'equate', SLOWLY.

to make or regard as equivalent or similar, esp in order to compare or balance

He made or regarded the training of both as similar in order to compare or balance them, or even to contrast them as he has put it.

Buddy, I read recently on here that you're hoping to do a linguistics PhD. Phew! Good luck with that. Them words, so many of them for you to struggle with.

osarusan

jr22 wrote: »

He made or regarded the training of both as similar in order to compare or balance them, or even to contrast them as he has put it.

can you quote or link to this post please?

jr22

osarusan wrote: »

can you quote or link to this post please?

#66

drkpower wrote: »

People's experiences are 100 a penny. As is yours.

However, there is actually objective evidence that nurses are trained to know quite a lot about medicine; it is a different kind of knowledge and not as complete as a doctors, but it is significant nonetheless.

So, when we balance your experience versus what we objectively know about nursing education/training, the scale is weighted very much against you. A good PhD student would know to re-consider their view, and seek further evidence before coming to any conlusions.

Jimoslimos

jr22 wrote: »

Well there you go. Short of weighing a representative sample of the nursing population of the country, sniffing them for the smell of fags and asking them to give me you snippets of medical advice, tis' going to be tough to bring this to The Lancet for sure.

Actually there are plenty of studies on evaluating whether there are any differences in patient outcome (as well as financial feasibility) between nurse-practitioner led primary care and physicians or combinations of the two
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16390522
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14706124
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10632281

Oh, and since you mention The Lancet,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10533859

jr22 wrote: »

Buddy, I read recently on here that you're hoping to do a linguistics PhD. Phew! Good luck with that. Them words, so many of them for you to struggle with.

jr22 wrote: »

I've met a few sound air hostesses, they gave me some great cans of coke and lottery tickets. THey were toppers. I wouldn't like to be a passenger if they were flying a plane though.

I think I may need a linguistics degree to decipher some of your posts, toppers?

tallus

jr22 wrote: »

I've met a few sound air hostesses, they gave me some great cans of coke and lottery tickets. THey were toppers. I wouldn't like to be a passenger if they were flying a plane though.

Would you trust them to look after you if you were in hospital ?

What have air hostesses got to do with medical care ?

Your argument holds no water.

Rasheed

Op now I think you're just trying to get a rise out of people.

Ok what did I my four years in college, two years part time in college and five years experience in an acute hospital setting get me? What would you consider me actually qualified in or what do you think I could give advise on?

Making a tidy bed?
Giving a right good bed bath?
Filling a uniform well?