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How do I get started in Phd application?

DrFroggies

Hi guys,

I was encouraged by the professor who supervised my BA Hons dissertation to consider perusing a Phd and it was something I had considered doing sometime in the future (as I thought I'd have to do an MA first but apparently not) but I have an area of research I'd be really eager to write a doctoral thesis on and to be honest I'd really like to go for the phd anyway. The area I'm looking at would be in the arts/media/cultural/philosophy basing it in a social and historical context and from all of the information I can gather it's more difficult to get significant research funding/scholarships in the arts/humanities field than say science (though not I hope impossible). Anyway as I studied in the UK I can't just drop into my uni's futures dept and get information on how to apply for phd and I'm a bit lost on how to go about it...in fact the more I read the more confused I get. The crucial thing here is that unless I get full funding (fees and living costs) I can't do it right now.

I've read the FAQ here and checked through a few other forums but I'm still just not sure exactly how I (A) Apply to do a Phd and (B) Apply for funding...especially in the area I'm looking into.

1. Should I just come up with a topic outline and approach universities or do they outline them and I shape them towards my ambition? Or do I just apply saying I'd like to do a Phd in 'this' field and flesh it out with them?

2. Can I apply to any university anywhere in the world for scholarship/living stipend?

3. What is the likelihood of getting a scholarship to cover fees and living costs?
Should I just apply to a number of different universities and see which one's are interested or is there an etiquette to making applications?

4. Is funding arranged as part of accepting a place or is a place offered and then a funding application made?

5. Is there anywhere in Dublin I can go to sit down and talk to someone about what I could and should do?

A huge thanks to anyone who can shine a bit of light on this for me or even tell me where I can go to find out more.

Cheers,
DrF ;-)

Ps. Some of the institutions I've been looking at in particular are Trinity College Dublin, NYU and Colombia in the US..but I'd be happy to go wherever has the best facility/record in my area or failing that wherever gives the best option for funding to complete my thesis.

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lfqnic

That's a long list of questions and I can't answer most of them, but I'll help where I can.

To apply to Trinity, you'd be applying now for March entry. The application process is fairly straightforward, but you should have identified and approached a possible supervisor first. You'd need to narrow it down to a particular school, find a professor there who looks like they might have an interest in your field, and then email them as a prospective student.
As for funding, there are a small (very small) number of Studentships available within the college, and some of the larger / wealthier departments have their own funding to give away. You can't take it for granted that you'll get any of these, especially not the in the first year - there just isn't a lot of money going around. Also, I believe they are only given out once a year and you've just missed it for 2013. I don't know for a fact, but I would suspect that preference would be given to a TCD student over an outsider if the two were equally matched. I can't speak for other unis, but Trinity is fairly broke.

There is also the Irish Research Council, which is also extremely competitive, and again, you've missed the rounds for this year. I don't know if you need to have been previously resident in Ireland to apply, but I would check that pretty quickly.

To be honest, if your research has no particular connection to Ireland, I would think about applying elsewhere. I don't think funding is quite so tight in the UK, and some US unis are also loaded. A lot of people here have to fund at least one year on their own, and most of the rest of us funded by the skin of our teeth.

Realt Dearg Sec

As with the last poster, I think your questions are very wide-ranging and scattered which makes it difficult to answer. That's understandable, though, when you are not at all sure of what's involved etc. Anyway the first thing I would do would be to email the prof who encouraged you to do a PhD in the first place and seek out their advice.

Then seek out every other prof and tutor you worked with that you had a rapport with and seek their advice. Then seek advice from anyone you know who is doing a PhD or has finished one. This is not just in terms of clarifying the application process, it's to clarify whether you really want to do it. It really is no joke and I think a lot of people who take it up regret it later. I don't mean to sound discouraging, but it's important to realise that the advice you get from universities is not always in your best interests. The departments get better funding, better stats, better rankings, based on having more PhD students. It's vitally important, therefore, that you get as many views as possible, and the more independent the voice, the more valuable the advice. And you should be open to advice that warns against doing it, or that urges caution about it, and not just listen to the people who go on about it being a chance to open your mind and all of that other codology that you will be very cynical about later. This isn't to say that they are wrong, it's just that, by definition, professors and so on are the success stories. But you are committing yourself to years of study, and years of being very poor, while those around you are advancing their careers and getting on with their lives (relationships, families etc, all of which is much much harder once you are in a PhD programme), and to be frank, the career prospects are very poor. You are taking a big risk and making huge sacrifices and you deserve to know the full story of what that entails if you are going to make that decision. I did a PhD and I am very happy I did it, and it really did change my life for the better and I'm living a bit of a dream job situation right now. I would recommend doing it. But that's not what happens to everyone. So, before you do anything: advice advice advice.

More specific stuff:

1. As the last poster said, talk to a person within the university that you think might be good to work with (hopefully you have good reasons to work with them, such as liking their writing and so on, not just that they are in Trinity). It's more difficult to get into a place in Ireland if you don't first establish a rapport with someone. Meet them in person if possible. Having a fairly vague thesis topic is not a big deal, since you can work towards a more fleshed out application with the potential supervisor. I applied "cold" and it made the whole application process more difficult. I wouldn't recommend it. It worked out for me in that I got accepted and was allocated a good supervisor but it could easily have been a disaster. You don't want a supervisor who is not much good, and if you are dealing with them before applying you'll be able to see if you're a god fit for each other. Remember that you are interviewing them as much as the other way round.

2. This question is pretty much unanswerable. Trinity have studentships but I dunno how extensive they are in terms of money. The IRC application will require about three weeks of your life if you are going to do it at all properly, and if your thesis topic is at a very early stage then you are not likely to get it. But that's irrelevant since that application process is closed for the moment. Once you are talking about going abroad then you are dealing with totally different situations depending on the college. In America the big name universities are very well funded. The smaller ones aren't and you'll pay, a lot. The big ones will cost a lot too, but if you aren't getting funded then they never wanted you anyway.

3. Kind of an extension of the above question. There's no etiquette in the sense that you can apply to as many places as you like, but a generic application will struggle in comparison with one fleshed out through discussing it with a potential supervisor (regarding the advice thing again: that includes getting as much advice and as many readers as you can for your proposal). The likelihood of being able to get everything covered is slim enough though. Especially since many universities wont give you teaching hours in your first year.

4. I don't know. Really does depend on the university.

5. Nobody independent. But send an email to anyone in any of the universities who is working in the area you're interested in and try to arrange a meeting.

Other things:
You mentioned NYU and Columbia in passing at the end. These are extremely competitive institutions, and the American application process is a complicated one, so if you are serious about them, then be prepared to put in a huge amount of work. For one thing, you will have to do an exam called the GRE, which used to be done in St. Pat's Drumcondra once or twice a year (I dunno if that's still the case). This will require preparation. You would also have to do an application for each college you're interested in, and each one costs a fair amount to do. Again, if you're thinking of America you should talk to people who've done it. And the same rules apply: there has to be a good reason for going to a particular college: what areas of research are they strong in? Who do you want to work with there? etc etc. On the plus side in America you wouldn't have to comeup with a thesis topic, as the programme is totally different, and you spend several years doing courses, and your dissertation isn't even really that big of a component. It is, by all accounts, a very high pressure environment though.

I would strongly recommend that you do an MA, whether you have to or not. It would give you breathing room to get to know your subject area better, to flesh out and test your ideas in a more challenging environment, and let you become more familiar with your discipline (the BA will only teach you so much).

If you are totally dependent on getting full funding, you probably should forget about it, or at least save up a while. You are unlikely to be able to fund yourself entirely, at least in Ireland. But you can, of course, get part-time jobs and so on. I don't think I know anyone who didn't do some part time work during their doctorate, except a few people with rich daddies.

But beyond all that, it's actually hard to give any real advice because you haven't specified your area, or your motivations. It's an important question: why do you want to do a PhD?

DrFroggies

Thanks for the replies guys. My apologies for the length and broad nature of the questions and also if I was a little vague on my topic area.

My hope is to cover a topic in the art history arena, in particular to research and explore the influence of the arts on civilisation: culturally, sociologically and politically (and vice versa). I'd put a more specific slant on this, there are a variety of routes I could take to do it and I've already completed a rough chapter breakdown of how I could lay it out if I was to go down one particular route (just for my own focus). I could propose this under as an art, philosophy, history or even sociological subject (for example in Trinities school of History and Humanities or it's school of Social Sciences and Philosophy or NYU's school of Culture Education and Human Development they also offer a Doctoral Programme Of Philosophy in Media, Culture and Communication).

They're just examples but as it's an area I'm very passionate about and have devoted most of my life to there are any number of related tangents I would be happy to delve into (fully aware of the frustrations, plateaus and general mid phd regrets they entail) and broaden my own knowledge and hopefully add something progressive and illuminating to the academic writing already out there in this area.

Which is the main reason I want to do a phd, there are other reasons as well...I'm a mature student (mid 30s) I don't want to spend time on both an MA and a Phd and having read through a number of Phd papers last year the word count and scope is very suited to the approach I'd like to take.

I've read through threads with people about to crack even in their final year of doing PhD so it is something I'm approaching cautiously.

lfqnic wrote: »

To apply to Trinity, you'd be applying now for March entry.

I believe they are only given out once a year and you've just missed it for 2013. I don't know for a fact, but I would suspect that preference would be given to a TCD student over an outsider if the two were equally matched. I can't speak for other unis, but Trinity is fairly broke.

There is also the Irish Research Council, which is also extremely competitive, and again, you've missed the rounds for this year. I don't know if you need to have been previously resident in Ireland to apply, but I would check that pretty quickly.

Hhhmm so whilst I could apply to Trinity for March entry I wouldn't be able to get any funding in time...do you know when rounds for funding open again? I'm actually from Ireland I just did my final year in the UK.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

the first thing I would do would be to email the prof who encouraged you to do a PhD in the first place and seek out their advice.

It really is no joke and I think a lot of people who take it up regret it later. I don't mean to sound discouraging, but it's important to realise that the advice you get from universities is not always in your best interests. The departments get better funding, better stats, better rankings, based on having more PhD students.

you are committing yourself to years of study, and years of being very poor.

Absolutely but to be fair to her she also encouraged me to try for a phd elsewhere if not necessarily under her (she was an great supervisor and highly thought of but I told her that whilst I'd love to do my phd under her I would be taking action against the uni over some issues in setting me up properly - fees etc so it wouldn't be likely I'd choose that institution for my Phd if I do it) so at least in terms of benefits to her and the Uni I know her advice was genuine.

As for 'years of being very poor'...tragically that's something I'm very used to and my biggest concern in undertaking a Phd...do I really have it in me to go through more 'tight' years??? The study and research part I don't mind (even though I know I'll go through phases of hating it) as I was saying it's an area I'm passionate about and already pretty knowledgeable on not to mention continually fascinated with; one which I've committed myself to repeatedly despite having turned down significantly lucrative opportunities (in other areas) in the past.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

You would also have to do an application for each college you're interested in, and each one costs a fair amount to do.

Is there anywhere I can find out how much?

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

On the plus side in America you wouldn't have to comeup with a thesis topic, as the programme is totally different, and you spend several years doing courses, and your dissertation isn't even really that big of a component. It is, by all accounts, a very high pressure environment though.

Do you mean that in America all topics are set out...so I wouldn't actually be able to say 'what I would like to do is xyz' it would be a case of joining an already set up topic?

Several years...do you mean more than 4?

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

If you are totally dependent on getting full funding, you probably should forget about it, or at least save up a while. You are unlikely to be able to fund yourself entirely, at least in Ireland.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Once you are talking about going abroad then you are dealing with totally different situations depending on the college. In America the big name universities are very well funded. The smaller ones aren't and you'll pay, a lot. The big ones will cost a lot too, but if you aren't getting funded then they never wanted you anyway.

lfqnic wrote: »

there just isn't a lot of money going around...I can't speak for other unis, but Trinity is fairly broke.

lfqnic wrote: »

To be honest, if your research has no particular connection to Ireland, I would think about applying elsewhere. I don't think funding is quite so tight in the UK, and some US unis are also loaded.

I'm getting a picture here that my only option might well be USA because I definitely won't be able to do it unless I get full funding...and even then I'll probably have to take on P/t work to cover the debts I already have.:eek:

Thanks again guys for taking the time here I'm keeping everything you're saying in mind and I'll take your advice on getting more information and feedback from people in the know...I just really want to get a clearer idea of the lay of the land so to speak so that if I do get a chance to sit down with someone I'm clear on what I need to ask them. Because if I do this at my age I need to do it right.

lfqnic

One more thing: what you described above is more like ten shelves of a library than a ph.d topic. When you bring it to potential supervisors, they will want to see something that is not only interesting but feasible - they don't want to read a shopping list or a review of the topic since year dot, but something concise and in depth and focused. Unless what you're doing is groundbreaking - say, looking for the first time at unexamined primary sources - you'll need to get a lot more focused before you begin.
You might find a patient potential supervisor to help you with this, or they may have identified a suitable topic and been waiting for the right student (some list these on their academic profiles), or you may have to do it yourself, OR - and this might be a good solution for you because you're only really at the general stage - you could think about America where you have a few more years of classes and a reading year before writing, meaning you have lots of time to identify a focused and realistic research topic.

Ph.Ds are meant to be interdisciplinary by nature, but you also need to be realistic about which sort of school you'll fit into / be an asset to. Where are your credentials up to this point? For instance, if you are competing against other good students for stipends or even just admission, why would a philosophy department accept you over someone who has done their degree in philosophy? So be focused and play to your strengths - if your undergrad is in art history, start looking for art historians you might like to work with.

For what it's worth, I think Réalt Dearg Sec's advice about an MA makes sense. If you could sort out the money, it mightn't even be too late to apply for this year, and it would give you a chance to get back into the Irish system, get to know academics and find out all this info. It would also give you space to narrow your idea down a lot and try a portion of it for your thesis. The piece of paper in no way hurts when you later come to basically ask a uni to employ you to do a Ph.D. You'll also see if you have the initiative required to do research more or less alone, and if you're committed to it at potentially great cost. A lot of people (most?) don't get complete funding, so if that is a dealbreaker for you, a Ph.D might not be an option.

Ravelleman

Having a bachelor's degree doesn't necessarily mean you're well equipped to embark upon a PhD. You may think that you're ready to pass directly on to what really seems like a project of impossible magnitude but the difference between undergraduate level and postgraduate level is actually quite big. Were I you I would seriously consider the taught master's route before the PhD. To be honest most funding bodies in Ireland - IRC, internal university sources - would be quite unlikely to consider you without a master's unless you have *absolutely* outstanding results in your bachelor's degree. Even in this case I'm not aware of anyone in the humanities who has been successful in receiving IRC funding without a master's. If you did a master's you'd certainly develop much better methodological and theoretical skills.

WhirlEsme

Ravelleman wrote: »

If you did a master's you'd certainly develop much better methodological and theoretical skills.

Definitely agree with this - I'm not in the humanities, but found my masters invaluable and would highly recommend that you pursue one before applying for a PhD. It really eases the transition from being an undergrad to a postgrad.

I'm based in an Irish institution, so have zero experience of American PhD applications - but this thread may be of interest http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055886905

innad

I have to agree with everyone suggesting doing a masters first.

I am currently finishing my dissertation for a part-time taught MSc, and although I would never have known it had I not done the masters, I definitely have a much clearer understanding of what's involved in a PhD now. I realise how completely under-prepared I would have been had I tried to apply for a PhD prior to completing the masters.

I still want to do a PhD, but I'm so glad I took the two extra years to do the masters first.

short paragraphs

On the topic of applying to American universities, I went through the process a couple of times and it's brutal. Be really sure you even want to apply because it will take up an enormous amount of time. You will have to do the general GRE exam (verbal/maths/essay writing) for all of them but some schools require a subject-specific test. I had to do a multiple choice test covering all of literature. I'm not even joking. All. Of literature. That's before you even tackle the application form. The schools you mentioned are big name schools too so they get thousands of applications and if you don't score above a certain level in the GRE they won't even look at the rest of your application. For what it's worth, I have two MAs, good test scores, and glowing letters of recommendation and the closest I got to an acceptance was being offered a non-funded place on a Masters course that would eventually convert to a PhD. It's also an expensive process - every application needs transcripts, test scores etc. Mainly though, prepare yourself for rejection on a mass scale - unless you're a genius, in which case good luck!

Compare it to the application process here: I emailed a professor, who is now my supervisor, gave him a two paragraph synopsis of what I was thinking, he said it sounded good and he'd take me on if I submitted an application. Obviously there are other things involved but it's nowhere near the mountain of work you will do for American applications.

I'd echo everyone else in advising you to attempt a Masters first. The difference between undergraduate and postgraduate is huge. Doing a Masters would also help you define your eventual PhD topic. You could end up doing something completely different to what you're thinking of now. And, more significantly, the difference between MA and PhD is another jump as well. It could be quite the shock to the system to go straight from BA to PhD. People have done it, but it's a massive leap to take.

DrFroggies

lfqnic wrote: »

One more thing: what you described above is more like ten shelves of a library than a ph.d topic. When you bring it to potential supervisors, they will want to see something that is not only interesting but feasible - they don't want to read a shopping list or a review of the topic since year dot, but something concise and in depth and focused.

Sorry just to re-clarify the above is not my proposed phd topic but just the general topic area I'm looking at...my proposal wouldn't be so general but the specifics of it would relate to the school in which I applied to do it if you know what I mean? (I'd possibly look for corollary academic writing in whatever area the particular school was in i.e. if it was history I'd could focus on XYZ's Seven Paradigm Shifts in Human Civilisation from Ad 300 to 1985 or ABC's Fundamental Principles of Philosophy in the Formation of Modern Western Morality etc etc if it was Philosophy as bedrocks and then offer corresponding research results on specific artistic movements and again it would be more specific than that) For example my dissertation took in Philosophy (existentialism), Literature (mid 20th century French literature) and Film (writer/director collaboration of a single iconic film) - drawing a line through Kirkegaard and Nietzsche into Sartre and Camus on into their fictional literary creations (the Outsider and Nausea) and characters (of Meursault and Roquentin) and onwards into Martin Scorsesse and Paul Schrader's creation of Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver...it allowed me to explore not only literature, film and philosophy but theological questions and the balancing of theist and atheist worldviews in all three areas as well as the sociological resonances of pre and post WWII and all within a very sharply focused context.

And I'd do something similar with my Phd if i go for one as I can definitely say my research and writing was tighter and more advanced than some of the doctoral papers I read when doing my research into my own work.

lfqnic wrote: »

A lot of people (most?) don't get complete funding, so if that is a dealbreaker for you, a Ph.D might not be an option.

Right now, unless I win the lottery...it is a dealbreaker

Ravelleman wrote: »

To be honest most funding bodies in Ireland - IRC, internal university sources - would be quite unlikely to consider you without a master's unless you have *absolutely* outstanding results in your bachelor's degree. Even in this case I'm not aware of anyone in the humanities who has been successful in receiving IRC funding without a master's. If you did a master's you'd certainly develop much better methodological and theoretical skills.

innad wrote: »

I have to agree with everyone suggesting doing a masters first. I realise how completely under-prepared I would have been had I tried to apply for a PhD prior to completing the masters.

Well that's the problem I had top marks in every module throughout my three years of study until a mess up on the Uni's behalf before Christmas (which is why I'm taking action against them now) it pulled grades of three affected modules down and therefore my final grade was a little over 1% lower than I needed...it's still a good grade and my dissertation was still a first etc but not having the overall I needed means I couldn't apply for the full funding options offered by my Uni (otherwise I'd most likely be about to start my fully funded phd there now as the professor who was supervising my dissertation was very excited by my work and was held in high enough regard that I'd have an above average chance of approval) but sure that's they way it is.

I also took part in workshops within my Uni designed to help BA MA and Phd students to refine their research skills and was told that I was already undertaking research more usual to Phd than BA studies - this was also the consensus when I went for my first meetings with my own supervisor and previous to that another lecturer during initial dissertation lectures.

Incidentally I don't mean any of that in an 'I know everything because I'm great' kind of way I just mean that in terms of being prepared for what I'd be getting into in pure study/research/writing terms I'm confident enough that I'd be able for it, have a good enough academic record and most of the people (tutors, lecturers etc) who've seen my work seemed just as confident. But I don't doubt for a second that there are probably plenty of people before me who thought the same and where overwhelmed by the reality of doing a Phd. However for me time is very, very precious and adding another 2 years on via an MA is (at the moment) not a realistic option...if my circumstances changed tomorrow i'd be happy to jump into an MA and then on toward a Phd.

WhirlEsme wrote: »

I'm based in an Irish institution, so have zero experience of American PhD applications - but this thread may be of interest http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055886905

Thanks I'll have a read through that!

short paragraphs wrote: »

On the topic of applying to American universities, I went through the process a couple of times and it's brutal. Be really sure you even want to apply because it will take up an enormous amount of time. You will have to do the general GRE exam (verbal/maths/essay writing) for all of them but some schools require a subject-specific test. I had to do a multiple choice test covering all of literature. I'm not even joking. All. Of literature. That's before you even tackle the application form. The schools you mentioned are big name schools too so they get thousands of applications and if you don't score above a certain level in the GRE they won't even look at the rest of your application. For what it's worth, I have two MAs, good test scores, and glowing letters of recommendation and the closest I got to an acceptance was being offered a non-funded place on a Masters course that would eventually convert to a PhD. It's also an expensive process - every application needs transcripts, test scores etc. Mainly though, prepare yourself for rejection on a mass scale - unless you're a genius, in which case good luck!

:eek::eek::eek: That does sound pretty horrific alright...can't even imagine what they'd gauge from a test covering 'all of literature'...intimidating stuff indeed! And it's that thing I always dread hearing...'expensive process'.

Guys this has been really helpful stuff it's exactly the kind of reality check information I needed before making a decision whether to embark on the long application process now or wait a few years until i'm in a better financial situation. Thanks a million.

Sir Ophiuchus

Ravelleman wrote: »

Even in this case I'm not aware of anyone in the humanities who has been successful in receiving IRC funding without a master's.

I did, but I delayed my IRC application until a year into the PhD so I had tangible results to show them.

I'd recommend that the OP consider doing a Master's degree in their field of interest, as it seems like they have a lot of information to pick up about how best to approach doing a PhD and a lot of research interest to narrow down (for comparison, my PhD topic is along the lines of "catalogue and examine the presence of [minority group] as main characters in novels of [genre] over a fourteen-year period" - narrow is good).

short paragraphs

DrFroggies wrote: »

However for me time is very, very precious and adding another 2 years on via an MA is (at the moment) not a realistic option...if my circumstances changed tomorrow i'd be happy to jump into an MA and then on toward a Phd.

With no knowledge of your personal circumstances, take it from a chronic straggler that even if you have serious academic career ambitions, you don't have to do everything within a set time frame. I had a six year break from academia before going back to do the PhD and it did me the world of good. Waiting until you're financially secure won't be the end of the world, same as taking a year or two to do an MA wouldn't be catastrophic either (leaving aside financial concerns).

johnmaggie11

You can apply to Queens in Northern Ire for a full-time PHD. They will turn you down but agree to a part-time distance doctorate if you're not living in the UK
You would need one of your ex tutors to recommend you.
Should you opt for this course of action, you will only have to visit Queens one day per month. They will also hurry you up which means you'll get your PHD done quickly. This is because your sample would not be local. Good luck.
Maggie

Manco

If I hadn't done an MA, I would be a lot more disadvantaged starting out on a PhD. Something worth doing is worth doing well, the skills an MA will give you will help you immeasurably in starting a PhD