cdebru wrote: » Again the price of a subsidised or unsubsidised mobile phone is irrelevant.
bk wrote: » I'm sorry but it is very comparable. Look at an airline like Southwest Airlines in the US (think Ryanair), their airlines are definitely utilised 20+ hours a day 7 days a week and I can assure you the iPads are being used constantly throughout this time and have been thoroughly tested by the FAA for reliability. It is laughable that people would think that any electronic devices on a commercial airline, in particular any as important as an electronic flight bag isn't ridiculously thoroughly tested. Way beyond anything the DB would ever do.
MYOB wrote: » The only people the price of mass-market hardware is irrelevant to are those who won't be left in this market in five years time. Head in the sand approach never works.
TheBandicoot wrote: » I'd love to get a representative from Wayfarer onto this thread to see where they see the future of on bus ticketing equipment. I'm sure they have done lots of research into the Android tablet universe. Maybe they are trying to pivot into a software business?
cdebru wrote: » No a 40 euro android phone can not be used as a ticket machine so it is irrelevant, when questioned the poster is now saying 1000 euro for a tablet based ticketing system, so why even mention a 40 euro phone? I could probably buy a digital watch for a tenner with more memory than the wayfarer but as it cant be used as a ticket machine it is also irrelevant.
cdebru wrote: » Will they be using them in a constant on working state for that time? Will they be using them for GPS, will they be issuing tickets with them, will they be connected to a network?
cdebru wrote: » Will they have a back up in the form of written flight manuals, will the plane be able to operate if the tablet is not operating ? Will the airline lose money if the tablet is not functioning ?
cdebru wrote: » Will the tablet be subject to huge temperature changes like on a bus parked overnight during the winter?
pclive wrote: » Its all well and good discussing this issue here but has anyone taken the time to write to leapcard/dublin bus or the minister to complain about this. I received a reply back from leapcard stating that they are aware of the problem and that a software upgrade is being prepared to speed up the transactions. This softare upgrade will be rolled out across the Dublin Bus fleet in the coming weeks. Why not take the time to email the minister at minister@dttas.ie highlighting the issues with the leap card roll out.
bk wrote: » It really is laughable to say that their aren't robust enough for Dublin Bus, while the US Air Force and almost all US commercial airlines are using them!
Victor wrote: » How many potholes do these planes experience? Do they process 125,000 tickets per year?
AlekSmart wrote: » The Tablet vs Dedicated debate is largely irrelevant to me as a Busdriver,I just want the damn thing to work and make my job as easy as it can be.
Victor wrote: » No offence, but the minister wouldn't know what a ticket machine was if it hit him. Politicians don't do detail. I mentioned to the NTA the problem Alek was having on 20 June and again on 1 July. It was investigated 3 July. I re-raised the issue on 15 August. The next day I was told what the identified problems were. On 26 August, I was informed there was a software patch that is being tested this week. If successful, it will then be rolled out across the fleet.
bk wrote: » Hmm.. I read a fantastic article about all this written by one of the American Airlines pilots who originally tested this which answers most of your questions and had fantastic pictures, but unfortunately I can't find it now. I'll keep looking. But to answer your questions. Yes the iPad is mounted in the cockpit in front of the pilot and slightly to the side. They are powered on an active from before takeover, through the entire flight till landing. They are in continuous constant use at all times. Flying involves lots and lots of checklists for every situation imaginable (pre-flight checks, fuel checks and calculations, cruising checklists, landing checklists, post flight checklists and emergency checklists) all of these are now stored on the ipads, along with the details of all airports (runway lengths, approach routes, altitudes, etc.) and also the full airline manuals! This video should give you some idea:http://www.mactrast.com/2013/06/apples-ipad-now-in-use-in-all-american-airlines-cockpits/ These things are in absolute constant use on a flight deck. Much more then they would be used even on a bus! No GPS wouldn't be in use on a commercial airline, but it would be used on small private aircraft. Likewise GPS wouldn't be used on a DB bus, as they already have GPS systems with RTPI, but the GPS would be used on private operators who don't already have that functionality. Yes, the ipads would be connected to a network to receive updates etc. No obviously they won't be issuing tickets with them :rolleyes: But then neither would they on DB, a separate printer prints the actual ticket, an app just runs the ticketing software on the tablet. Each commercial flight has three iPads, the pilots, co-pilots and a spare kept in the cabin. This is the same as was previously kept, but in paper form. If one tablet breaks, then one of the other two is used. If all three suddenly break (unlikely), no the plane will still operate, though a pilot would likely call in an emergency due to technical difficulties and the air traffic controllers would radio them the relevant information (direction, approach to runway, etc.). Without the tablets an aircraft can still fly, but not to it's normal procedures. Yes, if all three tablets aren't working, the airline would lose money due to an emergency needing to be declared and the ensuing bad PR. An airline would lose far more money then a few broken DB ticket machines. I'd also point out that the leap card on the wayfarers frequently don't work. I'd say at this stage I've gotten about 20 free trips due to leap/wayfarer not working and the driver waving me on. I'm not even a frequent daily bus user! So I'd ask you, how much money is DB losing with the current wayfarer machines? LOL, what do you think happens to planes parked on the apron overnight in freezing conditions in somewhere like Boston airport!! Seriously hilarious. I'm sorry, but tablets have been proven incredibly robust by their use in the airline industry. One of the most safety concious and heavily regulated industries in the world. Dublin Bus ticket machine operations wouldn't come within even a long shot of how heavily they would be used on an airline. It really is laughable to say that their aren't robust enough for Dublin Bus, while the US Air Force and almost all US commercial airlines are using them!
MYOB wrote: » I'd actually be pretty certain that you could use any landfill android device as the main unit for this. The software is the core part of all this, and its not like they got the Leap modifications for free. Printer/card reader/etc would all be separately purchasable and replaceable parts on a Wayfarer just as with any other system. The watch analogy fails entirely when the other system in use is Android. PC-based tills killed cash registers effectively dead in the space of a few years and I can tell you that the board in the tills I supply is effectively the same as a very cheap laptop with an interface board added to the end. Hence why they cost about as much as a cash register yet can do hugely more.
Aard wrote: » I think the essence of bk's point is pertinent in that there are cheaper options that give >1mb of memory.
cdebru wrote: » I wonder where it is being tested? In one garage on a set number of buses with feedback from drivers to see if the problem is resolved? Or more likely on a machine in an office set up, which in no way replicates the in service conditions.
Victor wrote: » To date, testing has tended to be first on one route and then on all of Summerhill, then all routes. I imagine they also do desktop and one bus / a few buses testing also.
Karsini wrote: » Usng Leap on a bus is an exact science, as I noticed today. I removed the card after the button was pressed, only to be called back and told that it didn't read. Yet, if I wait until the green light appears I get told to move on or get grunted at. It's really putting me off.
cdebru wrote: » Yet again, the 40 euro phone has no relationship to a ticket machine, it was imo used for dramatic effect, ie this stuff only costs 40 euro whats the problem? BK has admitted that an android based tablet ticket machine would cost in the region of 1000 euro, since no one knows the cost of wayfarer machine the cost is moot because who knows if 1000 is cheaper?
dazberry wrote: » There is a trick to it, start moving off while still holding the card on the reader
dazberry wrote: » There is a trick to it, start moving off while still holding the card on the reader, so by the time the green light comes on, the card is just about to slide off the reader in your hand, your arm is fully outstretched, you get the warm glowing feeling of seeing the green light and the driver sees you progressing. Indeed if you manage it right you might even catch a glimpse of your balance. One of the drivers yesterday double clicked the button (as per this thread I think the machine was not responding) and gave me a companion ticket too. He told me it was reversed but /sigh/ it wasn't. While its a matter of principle, the cost of going in and getting a refund for this say next Saturday is more than the overcharge so hardly worth it really. Every couple of weeks I seem to encounter some form of overcharge... D.
bk wrote: » The fact that you have to use a "trick" to use leap card shows just how broken leap card and ticketing is on Dublin Bus. Most people just won't accept having to use "tricks" and will eventually just give up on leap. Leap and ticketing in general is currently badly broken on Dublin Bus and radical changes need to be made to fix it: - New, more powerful ticket machines, either a tablet based system or a more powerful wayfarer type system. - Either flat fare or tag-on/tag-off system of Leap usage with no driver interaction. - High cash flat fare to discourage the use of cash and to simplify and speed up its use.
bk wrote: » €1000 is the total cost, not just the cost of the tablets, but also the cost of the ticket printer, validators, mount, installation and all the back end systems. You can bet that the total cost of all this from wayfarer and the backend systems would also be at least €1000 and likely far more. Actually one point I just thought of. People are questioning the robustness of the tablet screen due to the driver having to constantly interact with it for each ticket sale. But this would only happen because of how broken ticketing is on Dublin Bus. In an ideal world the driver would seldom interact with the ticket machine. In an ideal world we would either have a flat fare or tag-on/tag-off with very high leap and smart card usage and a large price gap between leap and cash fare. This would mean no interaction with the ticket machine by the driver for the majority of fares, just the odd tourist. In London just 1% of fares are cash and thus require interaction by the driver with the ticket machine. This would massively reduce any wear and tear on the tablets. It would make physical usage of the tablet far less then used by pilots on aircraft, as approved by the fecking FAA! cdebru, if you are really so concerned about cold nigh time conditions or theft at night, then there is an easy solution. Have the driver or other staff move the tablets into the office depot when not in service, simples.
AlekSmart wrote: » What is required (Urgently,IMO) is a TOTAL restructuring of All GDR Public Transport Fare systems....No tinkering,No partial integration...Simply a NEW Region Wide simple fare structure embracing ALL PT modes.
bk wrote: » Agreed, which is why I've long said a tag-on/tag-off per km system like you ssee in Amsterdam is by far the ideal system. Offering the greatest degree of flexibility, simplicity and integration. Yes, tag-off isn't ideal on Dublin Bus with it's single door operations, but I believe it would still be faster then the current driver interaction system. It is a pity that leap validators weren't included in the RTPI poles, they could have been used for off bus tag-off. cdebru there are strong rumours of a big overhaul of the DB ticketing systems next year, so we might end up with the low driver interaction very soon.
bk wrote: » Agreed, which is why I've long said a tag-on/tag-off per km system like you ssee in Amsterdam is by far the ideal system. Offering the greatest degree of flexibility, simplicity and integration. Yes, tag-off isn't ideal on Dublin Bus with it's single door operations, but I believe it would still be faster then the current driver interaction system.It is a pity that leap validators weren't included in the RTPI poles, they could have been used for off bus tag-off. cdebru there are strong rumours of a big overhaul of the DB ticketing systems next year, so we might end up with the low driver interaction very soon.
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