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Bog cutting this week.

MadsL

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0817/468699-turf-cutting/

So not content with breaking EU law turfcutters are blockading the roads as well.

Frankly, given a well publicised plan to break the law next weekend, isn't it time that we stopped this nonsense and sent the IDF in to confiscate this machinery and end this embarrassment? I cannot fathom why it is being given the kid gloves treatment.

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MadsL

end of the road wrote: »

a vital source of cheep fuel

You mean cheaper than the free fuel they can get by stopping cutting?

Please explain, this sounds fascinating, I'd love to know where they get the free diesel and machinery. Sounds much cheaper than the Govt delivering free bags of compensatory turf for 15 years.

NuckingFacker

MadsL wrote: »

Did you miss this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNM3aH323zw

A slightly different tactic by Gardai when a road is blocked huh?

Loads of my neighbours are turf cutters. They're quite hardy men. I just can't see the gards baton charging them. You'd want your head examined. A bunch of slightly hippyish protesters is one thing. A load of lads whos idea of an easy evening is changing the pumps on a track machine, good luck with that.

Also, they're all pretty well-off. If a Gard clonked them on the head with a stick, they'd spend the next ten years sueing them for various reasons in front of a largely sympathetic judge with assorted barristers in tow. Pillar of the community assaulted by uppity Gard.. jasus, the local rag would love that story. There's people you can clonk with a baton, and people you can't. Simple as. Also, pints down the pub would be akward if one lad had spent the day hitting the other lad with a stick..

mikom

MadsL wrote: »

What about the big society we joined up to called the EU and the much bigger society called the Earth?

Will we just randomly choose not to protect one type of environment?

*Posts on damage to the earth
Location, Vegas, having flown there.

There's no way around the fact that flights are bad news for the environment. It's not just that planes are worse than most other forms of transport in terms of the impact of greenhouse gases per passenger mile. Just as important is the simple fact that flying allows us to travel a far greater number of miles than we otherwise could. Thanks to these two factors, individual trips by air can have a remarkably large carbon footprint – which helps explain why aviation has become such a heated issue in the climate change debate.

The impact of planes on the climate is complicated and not perfectly understood. The CO2 emissions are straightforward enough, but plane engines also generate a host of other "outputs", including nitrous oxide, water vapour and soot. At flying altitudes in the upper troposphere and lower stratosphere, these outputs produce a range of climatic effects, multiplying the plane's environmental impact. For example, nitrous oxide causes the formation of ozone — a greenhouse gas that warms the local climate — but at the same time undergoes reactions which destroy methane, thereby removing another greenhouse gas from the atmosphere.

Even more complicated is the impact of soot and water vapour, which together can cause contrails (vapour trails) and in cold air can lead to the formation of cirrus clouds. The science surrounding this topic is not yet rock solid, but researchers believe that contrails add to the greenhouse effect – especially at night, when their tendency to stop heat escaping from the Earth isn't offset by their tendency to reflect incoming sunlight.

Today, most experts favour an aviation "multiplier" of around two. In other words, they believe that the total impact of a plane is approximately twice as high as its CO2 emissions. The exact multiplier, however, will always depend on the individual plane, the local climate and the time of day.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/apr/06/aviation-q-and-a

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MadsL

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Loads of my neighbours are turf cutters. They're quite hardy men. I just can't see the gards baton charging them. You'd want your head examined. A bunch of slightly hippyish protesters is one thing. A load of lads whos idea of an easy evening is changing the pumps on a track machine, good luck with that.

Also, they're all pretty well-off. If a Gard clonked them on the head with a stick, they'd spend the next ten years sueing them for various reasons in front of a largely sympathetic judge with assorted barristers in tow. Pillar of the community assaulted by uppity Gard.. jasus, the local rag would love that story. There's people you can clonk with a baton, and people you can't. Simple as.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Irish Defence Forces it is then.

Perhaps the simply expedient of helicopters and a big tank of a smell producing chemical sprayed over the drying turf would be interesting.

Oh look lads you cut it and now it smells of arse. Good luck burning that.

OpenYourEyes

mikom wrote: »

*Posts on damage to the earth
Location, Vegas, having flown there.

Jets around.........

*makes no reference to habitat destruction, which is the core issue being discussed and the reason raised bogs are protected

mikom

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

*makes no reference to habitat destruction, which is the core issue being discussed and the reason raised bogs are protected

* only opens eyes once Bord na mona have shot their load.

Guy:Incognito

I need to build a new rockery in the garden, think I'll head down to newgrange in the morning and stock up.

OpenYourEyes

mikom wrote: »

* only opens eyes once Bord na mona have shot their load.

*doesn't realise that habitats are protected based on scientific criteria - only the ones worth conserving are conserved and so privately or industrially cut bogs past a certain point are not protected because it'd be pointless - the intact or relatively functional raised bogs they had were protected, the barren wastelands they have were not because they are not a useful habitat in any way

*also doesn't realise that the least damaged Bord na Mona bogs were designated as SAC's and handed back for conservation

*doesn't realise that I know full well the damage caused by Bord na Mona

*still deflecting the discussion from reasons why illegal turfcutters should or shouldnt cut protected bogs

mikom

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I need to build a new rockery in the garden, think I'll head down to newgrange in the morning and stock up.

The stone won't tie in with your local stone, so it will look dreadfully artificial.

Overheal

Campaigners opposing the bans say they restrict their traditional right to cut turf.

And I have a natural right to take a sh*t but the time and place is not sacrosanct.

NuckingFacker

MadsL wrote: »

Thanks for the heads-up.

Irish Defence Forces it is then.

Perhaps the simply expedient of helicopters and a big tank of a smell producing chemical sprayed over the drying turf would be interesting.

Oh look lads you cut it and now it smells of arse. Good luck burning that.

It's the countryside. Everywhere smells of arse. Also, going by the neighbours, the local TD is not going to rush into anything hasty like the Army. You do get local politics right? Again, there's people you can clonk, and people you can't. It's a subtle thing, but a thing none the less.

Just for clarity, I'd be a pro-cutting type. I might have mentioned that before.

NuckingFacker

Overheal wrote: »

And I have a natural right to take a sh*t but the time and place is not sacrosanct.

Speak for yourself. The seat of all learning is very sacrosanct ches facker.

MadsL

NuckingFacker wrote: »

It's the countryside. Everywhere smells of arse. Also, going by the neighbours, the local TD is not going to rush into anything hasty like the Army. You do get local politics right? Again, there's people you can clonk, and people you can't. It's a subtle thing, but a thing none the less. Just for clarity, I'd be a pro-cutting type. I might have mentioned that before.

Some people are above the law. Gotcha.

I was also thinking more along the lines of Putrescine

clairefontaine

MadsL wrote: »

Some people are above the law. Gotcha.

I was also thinking more along the lines of Putrescine

Mads. In rural Ireland the attitude to the law is different. The is no rule of law, its whatever they consider reasonable.

I guess they don't consider his reasonable. I don't think guards would want to do this, up have to think of local politics.

Hootanany

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0817/468699-turf-cutting/

So not content with breaking EU law turfcutters are blockading the roads as well.

Frankly, given a well publicised plan to break the law next weekend, isn't it time that we stopped this nonsense and sent the IDF in to confiscate this machinery and end this embarrassment? I cannot fathom why it is being given the kid gloves treatment.

Why is the Power plant still cutting turf?

MadsL

Hootanany wrote: »

Why is the Power plant still cutting turf?

From a Special Area of Conservation?

Where?

It isn't cutting turf that is banned it is cutting turf from a Special Area of Conservation that is banned.

NuckingFacker

Hootanany wrote: »

Why is the Power plant still cutting turf?

It's all power full, it can do whatever it likes.

MadsL

clairefontaine wrote: »

Mads. In rural Ireland the attitude to the law is different. The is no rule of law, its whatever they consider reasonable.

I guess they don't consider his reasonable. I don't think guards would want to do this, up have to think of local politics.

Then all the more reason to simply direct the Army in.

Move the JCB or it gets a round from the tank.

OpenYourEyes

MadsL wrote: »

From a Special Area of Conservation?

Where?

It isn't cutting turf that is banned it is cutting turf from a Special Area of Conservation that is banned.

And just to reiterate Special Areas of Conservation were designated for bogs owned by the state, semi-state companies (i.e. Bord na Mona) and private owners.

They were designated purely on scientific grounds, choosing the intact raised bogs and the raised bogs that have been cut but that could be restored to something close to their intact level - thus, there was no bias towards any group when these sites were designated.

Jester252

MadsL wrote: »

Then all the more reason to simply direct the Army in.

Move the JCB or it gets a round from the tank.

Why not just drive through/over it and save the round for later?

end of the road

MadsL wrote: »

You mean cheaper than the free fuel they can get by stopping cutting?

Please explain, this sounds fascinating, I'd love to know where they get the free diesel and machinery. Sounds much cheaper than the Govt delivering free bags of compensatory turf for 15 years.

its only for 15 years that they get the turf, after that they will have to go back on the bogs, also the turf isn't as good as the turf these cutters will get by cutting, it should be a lifetime supply of the best possible turf and 1000000 euro as compensation for the taking away of a vital part of their culture

paddy147

Ah you cant beat a few sods of turf slowly burning away in the stove with some well seasoned logs.

Great cosy fire and a great country smell too.:D

OpenYourEyes

end of the road wrote: »

its only for 15 years that they get the turf, after that they will have to go back on the bogs, also the turf isn't as good as the turf these cutters will get by cutting, it should be a lifetime supply of the best possible turf and 1000000 euro as compensation for the taking away of a vital part of their culture

First of all - turfcutting is still allowed on 95+% of sites - so the practice of turfcutting is not being taken away and is not in danger from anyone but the turfcutters themselves.

Second of all, this is to protect an important part of Irish culture - protecting those 5% of bogs ensures the culture of this rare habitat is preserved, and turfcutting continues on other bogs - so everyone wins!

Thirdly, you're fooling absolutely nobody with the "they're trying to give us dodgy turf, not this great turf that we have" argument - seriously grasping at straws if you think that's one of the stronger part of your argument

Effects

Hootanany wrote: »

Why is the Power plant still cutting turf?

NuckingFacker wrote: »

It's all power full, it can do whatever it likes.

How dumb are you? How can you not distinguish between bogs that are part of a Special Area of Conservation and bogs that aren't? It seems the pro cutting side are over burdened with thick, ignorant people who can't read and don't want to listen.
If they are into tradition so much why don't they give up the single farm payment and whatever other payments they receive from the government?

Rasheed

Yaay, it's not Roscommon this time!

ScumLord

I'd like to see the bogs protected but I also think there should be a certain amount of traditional bog cutting aloud.

Going in with machines and getting your winter fuel doesn't look like preserving traditions, it looks greedy, spiteful and they're acting like they shouldn't be let anywhere near a bog because they'll only abuse it..

MadsL

end of the road wrote: »

its only for 15 years that they get the turf, after that they will have to go back on the bogs, also the turf isn't as good as the turf these cutters will get by cutting, it should be a lifetime supply of the best possible turf and 1000000 euro as compensation for the taking away of a vital part of their culture

I understand that if they didn't like the free turf, €1500 a year was on offer.

Fifteen years is enough one would hope, to upgrade from an 19th Century heating system.

You still haven't explained how this turf is "cheap". From a taxpayers point of view it seems awfully expensive.

OpenYourEyes

MadsL wrote: »

I understand that if they didn't like the free turf, €1500 a year was on offer.

Fifteen years is enough one would hope, to upgrade from an 19th Century heating system.

You still haven't explained how this turf is "cheap". From a taxpayers point of view it seems awfully expensive.

Regarding that €1500 a year, when this topic was discussed on Pat kennys radio show a few months back an illegal turfcutter said each family cuts "€4-500 worth of a turf a year" - so not only do they have 15 years to upgrade their heating system, they've also been supplied with enough money to do it!

Uriel.

ScumLord wrote: »

I'd like to see the bogs protected but I also think there should be a certain amount of traditional bog cutting aloud.

Going in with machines and getting your winter fuel doesn't look like preserving traditions, it looks greedy, spiteful and they're acting like they shouldn't be let anywhere near a bog because they'll only abuse it..

Traditional turf cutting is permitted on all but a tiny percentage of Irish bogs. Those deemed most unique and endangered are the only ones with restrictions.

Uriel.

MadsL wrote: »

I understand that if they didn't like the free turf, €1500 a year was on offer.

Fifteen years is enough one would hope, to upgrade from an 19th Century heating system.

You still haven't explained how this turf is "cheap". From a taxpayers point of view it seems awfully expensive.

From a carbon point of view, using turf for heating/cooking has a double whammy effect - the release of emissions while burning it, but also the loss of a carbon store when cutting intact bog.