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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

Daysha

2009 - 2011 thread here

This is our year

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Sam Swarek

robopaddy wrote: »

well why dont you bugger off then for once and for all. youve been barred before yet keep coming back so we cant be that bad all the same.

A lot of genuine GAA people on here are feeling a bit low over whats happened and entitled to express their opinions and your using this to get your kicks with your 'i told ye so' attitude. get yourself a life

I was banned once before for something totally unrelated to Waterford hurling!!

im a genuine gaa man and a proud Waterford man, I don't like what has happened more than the next person.
People should really know what they are talking about before they post, the amount of cluelessness in this thread about hurling and what really goes on within the gaa in general is embarrassing.

Sam Swarek

Posters here cant even analyse a game of hurling properly. lads firing about names for potential managers without having a clue of there credentials or situation. there was 1 chap the other day saying he didn't know why the players got rid of ryan because "he heard good things inside and outside the county" about him, if the same chap didn't realise that he contradicted himself within the same sentence what business does he have been here talking smack about something he doesn't know the first thing about.

HillFarmer

Sam Swarek wrote: »

Posters here cant even analyse a game of hurling properly. lads firing about names for potential managers without having a clue of there credentials or situation. there was 1 chap the other day saying he didn't know why the players got rid of ryan because "he heard good things inside and outside the county" about him, if the same chap didn't realise that he contradicted himself within the same sentence what business does he have been here talking smack about something he doesn't know the first thing about.

What a moron! please enlighten us on how to analyse a game...

cleaboy boy

Some of the petty arguments in here are laughable, the county needs to get together as a whole and drive forward now, no point in looking back, we are in a minor All Ireland Final, let's concentrate on this, and get behind whoever is tasked with bringing our hurlers to the promised land. Some of the posters here wouldnt know a hurley if it hit them....

robopaddy

Sam Swarek wrote: »

Posters here cant even analyse a game of hurling properly. lads firing about names for potential managers without having a clue of there credentials or situation. there was 1 chap the other day saying he didn't know why the players got rid of ryan because "he heard good things inside and outside the county" about him, if the same chap didn't realise that he contradicted himself within the same sentence what business does he have been here talking smack about something he doesn't know the first thing about.

ok.

why dont you go off somewhere all your own intelligent type are then and you wont have to put up with us delinquents anymore

Ri na hEireann

I have no real insight on what happened here beyond what has been reported, but I'd have to say that the day of players being expected to go along with a project unconditionally, where they have little or no faith in the person or people guiding it are long gone and I certainly don't think we should all be lambasting them for that.

The game has changed so much over the past 5 years or so and the level of commitment required of intercounty players is outrageous; there is nothing 'amateur' about it at all. Given the time and effort involved in being a member of a county panel the county board has a duty of care to the players to ensure that they are provided with the best possible direction and guidance that can be given taking into account the individual county's relative strength, goals and resources. Waterford's medium-long term aim, I would imagine, is ultimately to be contesting for All-Ireland championships. We've have a golden era of considerable success at provincial level but we never reached the summit and all that's behind us so the appointment of a manager and management team should reflect our ambition as a county.

Equally, there has been a huge step up in professionalism at other levels within the county over the past few years, ranging from Harty teams in the county's colleges to the increase in standards at most senior clubs, and that's not even mentioning the various third-level set ups many of the panel are apart of, be it out in Carriganore or up in UCC, for example. The very least they can expect is a similar approach. They may have the physical & conditioning side down to a tee but at the end of the day a county team is at nothing in trying to develop if the modern tactical nous that is needed to get that edge over the Kilkennys and Tipps isn't there. The rise of other counties, and the reason Clare, Dublin, Cork and Limerick were this year's semi-finalists, is down to them having their systems well-adapted tactically. This idea that Waterford doesn't have the players at the moment is a nonsense. Look how far JBM has brought this Cork team in such a short amount of time! We're not short on talent but the next year or so will be decisive in seeing if we can get the best out of what we do have.

Whatever anyone in this thread feels about Michael Ryan as a person you need only know a few players involved in the senior set up to know that there isn't an abundance of faith in his capabilities as a manager of a top-level hurling county. Sam Swarek may be a bit confrontational in making his points but they do reflect some of the sentiment within the camp from what I've heard myself, and I wouldn't have any great insight at all. The players invest so much time into hurling at such a high level I think they're entitled to indicate to the county board their feelings when they feel they've reached a bit of a quagmire. In a perfect world the CB would pick up on these things and deal with them properly, but that would be expecting a bit much so these sort of things happen. Maybe it can be orchestrated more tactfully by players - be it the Cork, Limerick or Waterford hurlers - but at the same time you can't say players shouldn't have some sort of voice in the process. At the end of the day they're the ones who put in all the hours with the only reward being the the county's glory, which we all share in.

alllcounty

Sam Swarek wrote: »

Posters here cant even analyse a game of hurling properly. lads firing about names for potential managers without having a clue of there credentials or situation. there was 1 chap the other day saying he didn't know why the players got rid of ryan because "he heard good things inside and outside the county" about him, if the same chap didn't realise that he contradicted himself within the same sentence what business does he have been here talking smack about something he doesn't know the first thing about.

Many people had held michael ryan in high regard not only in waterford. After tipperary beat waterford in last years munster final Paul Curran the tipperary captain gave huge praise to michael ryan and said he was a a great man to have as a manager. He was speaking form experience from the time Ryan was at mullinahone when they were south tipp champions. On the sunday game Eddie Brennan and Liam Sheady were shocked he stepped down and both agread he had done a very good job this year.

For the past year you have been constantly negative towards Ryan and at the same time mentioning your buddy friend Derek McGrath should be manager. Derek loves himself and has a big ego as many former pupils of DLS college will tell you. He also spent a fortune in 07/08 managing DLS harty teams and it is not surprising the minister of education had to bring in a inspector to oversee the spending in the college given their huge bank loans. Derek McGrath would cripple waterford hurling financially and would piss many players off with his own self importance.

doz

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

Maybe it can be orchestrated more tactfully by players - be it the Cork, Limerick or Waterford hurlers - but at the same time you can't say players shouldn't have some sort of voice in the process. At the end of the day they're the ones who put in all the hours with the only reward being the the county's glory, which we all share in.

I think this is the crux of the issue and the opinion shared by the vast majority here. I don't think anybody is disputing that the players should not have a voice but there is a way of going about it and the way they have apparently done so has shown a huge lack of respect to a) a manger who gave a huge amount of time and committment to a cause shared by all and b) the county minor panel who were playing in Croke Park the same day.

Equally I don't think there is anybody here saying that Ryan was a fantastic irreplaceable manager. He is of course open to criticism, that is the nature of the job, and he made some mistakes which have been discussed at length here. However whatever one's opinion of him as a manager was, surely he is entitled to be treated with a bit more respect then he has been shown. I have stated already and believe that if the right channels were followed and the players expressed that they did honestly not believe that Ryan was the way forward he would have made the decision himself without being pushed into it.

tomkelly99

doz wrote: »

I think this is the crux of the issue and the opinion shared by the vast majority here. I don't think anybody is disputing that the players should not have a voice but there is a way of going about it and the way they have apparently done so has shown a huge lack of respect to a) a manger who gave a huge amount of time and committment to a cause shared by all and b) the county minor panel who were playing in Croke Park the same day.

Equally I don't think there is anybody here saying that Ryan was a fantastic irreplaceable manager. He is of course open to criticism, that is the nature of the job, and he made some mistakes which have been discussed at length here. However whatever one's opinion of him as a manager was, surely he is entitled to be treated with a bit more respect then he has been shown. I have stated already and believe that if the right channels were followed and the players expressed that they did honestly not believe that Ryan was the way forward he would have made the decision himself without being pushed into it.

Absolute nail on the head here. Noone is naive enough to think that the players do not deserve the right to give constructive feedback, whether it's positive or negative. Of course they do, they invest so much of their time in it, But to arrange a meeting like this, at the time they fixed it for and clearly without the backing of Ryan or the county board, and to decide his future based on that meeting is ridiculous.

This could have been handled so much better if the players had kept their powder dry and actually put some thought into what strategy they were going to take. They have damaged themselves hugely with their handling of this as it will be difficult for a new manager to come in and impose his authority on a squad of players he knows have basically jettisoned their previous manager.

Bottom line - of course players have the right to give feedback and let their views be known through the appropriate channels, Michael Ryan is a solid if unspectacular coach who deserved a better end to his reign than he was afforded by the players and the county board are lacking in the required leadership to clean this up as quickly as possible and put an end to the rumours and gossip that has been flying around the last few days.

This situation could be controlled but requires leadership from the board and from the players. Sadly, once again it looks like we are not going to get that leadership.

lovelypoint

doz wrote: »

I think this is the crux of the issue and the opinion shared by the vast majority here. I don't think anybody is disputing that the players should not have a voice but there is a way of going about it and the way they have apparently done so has shown a huge lack of respect to a) a manger who gave a huge amount of time and committment to a cause shared by all and b) the county minor panel who were playing in Croke Park the same day.

I'm not sure, I know there is still probably more to trickle out in this story, but until that does, and blame can be attributed correctly, I would not be in any hurry to judge.

For example, one scenario that cannot be ruled out yet, is that without any proper pulse taking from the players, that Ryan was about to be summarily reappointed for another term. If this was the case, were the players not right to make an appeal to the CB before any reappointment was made? Obviously a lot is still to emerge yet, but if the aforementioned is the what happened, I would not be lambasting the players, but rather the CB, after once again putting the players in such a position where the burden of any real leadership (and the resultant flak) is laid at the players door.

Of course, if it emerges that this was a left field coup by a selection of players, after their opinions had been solicited, then I have no sympathy for the players at all, and this looks very bad. My own personal issue, is that without any proper and full clarity as to what did happen, this is what most people would seem to be concluding.

I really do hope its not the latter.

Ri na hEireann

doz wrote: »

the way they have apparently done so has shown a huge lack of respect to a) a manger who gave a huge amount of time and committment to a cause shared by all and b) the county minor panel who were playing in Croke Park the same day.

However whatever one's opinion of him as a manager was, surely he is entitled to be treated with a bit more respect then he has been shown. I have stated already and believe that if the right channels were followed and the players expressed that they did honestly not believe that Ryan was the way forward he would have made the decision himself without being pushed into it.

I'd agree all right. The timing and that was poor on the player's part but like with all these sort of things they can be thrown together following a lengthened period of whispers and manoeuvring. When you have so many players trying to make their points and have their voices heard the best and most tactful approach often won't even occur to them especially when, from what I can make out, there's no real accessible grievance procedure laid out by the county board.

I hope there's some sort of amends made regarding supporting the minors. (As an aside it was heartening to see so many Waterford jerseys in Croker on Sunday)

robopaddy

tomkelly99 wrote: »

Absolute nail on the head here. Noone is naive enough to think that the players do not deserve the right to give constructive feedback, whether it's positive or negative. Of course they do, they invest so much of their time in it, But to arrange a meeting like this, at the time they fixed it for and clearly without the backing of Ryan or the county board, and to decide his future based on that meeting is ridiculous.

This could have been handled so much better if the players had kept their powder dry and actually put some thought into what strategy they were going to take. They have damaged themselves hugely with their handling of this as it will be difficult for a new manager to come in and impose his authority on a squad of players he knows have basically jettisoned their previous manager.

Bottom line - of course players have the right to give feedback and let their views be known through the appropriate channels, Michael Ryan is a solid if unspectacular coach who deserved a better end to his reign than he was afforded by the players and the county board are lacking in the required leadership to clean this up as quickly as possible and put an end to the rumours and gossip that has been flying around the last few days.

This situation could be controlled but requires leadership from the board and from the players. Sadly, once again it looks like we are not going to get that leadership.

I think its harsh to say that these players have damaged themselves and to be honest I think too big a deal is being made about the morning of the minor match its not like the meeting was on during the minor match. There was definetly no good time to do this and I know a lot of these players there is no ego's or prima donna's in this squad like there was in 08. They are a hard working group who want the best for themselves and I doubt anyone took any enjoyment in making this decision. Yes it could have been handled better but a lot of these lads are very young and probably a bit naive. Some people have been describing them as cowards I disagree I think it was a brave move. They had a choice to stick with a regime that they were unhappy with for another year at least or make the hard call and they chose the latter. Careers are short and players are giving up too much of their time nowadays to just drift along in circumstances they obviously agree wasn't ideal. They will be hurting aswell over the next few days and weeks and probably feeling a bit guilty especially with all the derogatory remarks that will be thrown there way but I think when the dust settles on this everyone will move on and Ive no doubt Michael Ryan is doing so already.

tomkelly99

robopaddy wrote: »

I think its harsh to say that these players have damaged themselves and to be honest I think too big a deal is being made about the morning of the minor match its not like the meeting was on during the minor match. There was definetly no good time to do this and I know a lot of these players there is no ego's or prima donna's in this squad like there was in 08. They are a hard working group who want the best for themselves and I doubt anyone took any enjoyment in making this decision. Yes it could have been handled better but a lot of these lads are very young and probably a bit naive. Some people have been describing them as cowards I disagree I think it was a brave move. They had a choice to stick with a regime that they were unhappy with for another year at least or make the hard call and they chose the latter. Careers are short and players are giving up too much of their time nowadays to just drift along in circumstances they obviously agree wasn't ideal. They will be hurting aswell over the next few days and weeks and probably feeling a bit guilty especially with all the derogatory remarks that will be thrown there way but I think when the dust settles on this everyone will move on and Ive no doubt Michael Ryan is doing so already.

But they have damaged themselves robopaddy, and continue to do so unless they clarify exactly what went down on Sunday. They don't have to go into massive specifics, just outline their grievances and offer suggestions as to how to fix them. As things stand, we are relying on scraps from the media and 'i heard this' and 'this fella heard that' The players can control the debate by steering it a certain way but they have decided, wrongly in my opinion, not to do this. I don't for a second question the commitment and dedication of these lads, they are a fine bunch of hurlers and are hungry for success. But you cannot say the events of Sunday haven't completely overshadowed the minor result and created the impression that Waterford hurling is a bit of a basket case. Most knowledgable Deise hurling people know this isn't the case but to an outsider, it looks terrible. I work outside the county and I've had fellas coming up to me yesterday and today saying 'Ye qualify for a minor All-Ireland and get rid of yere senior manager in the one day, Jesus ye're gas altogether.' The optics of it are terrible like.

It wouldn't have weakened their hand to have waited until the off season. If they felt the reappointment was inevitable, go through the proper channels within the county board and try to be someway constructive about this. Instead they took the nuclear option - a vote of no confidence in Ryan, and not a unanimous vote either if reports are to be believed. So even the players themselves are divided on this. October would have been time enough even. The dust would have settled on the season,guys would have had time to reflect. Instead, we're left with a bit of a mess playing out on social media and in print due to the lack of clarity or ownership.

I suppose sit back lads and enjoy the ride, she could get quite bumpy!

Brad1234

tomkelly99 wrote: »

But they have damaged themselves robopaddy, and continue to do so unless they clarify exactly what went down on Sunday. They don't have to go into massive specifics, just outline their grievances and offer suggestions as to how to fix them. As things stand, we are relying on scraps from the media and 'i heard this' and 'this fella heard that' The players can control the debate by steering it a certain way but they have decided, wrongly in my opinion, not to do this. I don't for a second question the commitment and dedication of these lads, they are a fine bunch of hurlers and are hungry for success. But you cannot say the events of Sunday haven't completely overshadowed the minor result and created the impression that Waterford hurling is a bit of a basket case. Most knowledgable Deise hurling people know this isn't the case but to an outsider, it looks terrible. I work outside the county and I've had fellas coming up to me yesterday and today saying 'Ye qualify for a minor All-Ireland and get rid of yere senior manager in the one day, Jesus ye're gas altogether.' The optics of it are terrible like.

It wouldn't have weakened their hand to have waited until the off season. If they felt the reappointment was inevitable, go through the proper channels within the county board and try to be someway constructive about this. Instead they took the nuclear option - a vote of no confidence in Ryan, and not a unanimous vote either if reports are to be believed. So even the players themselves are divided on this. October would have been time enough even. The dust would have settled on the season,guys would have had time to reflect. Instead, we're left with a bit of a mess playing out on social media and in print due to the lack of clarity or ownership.

I suppose sit back lads and enjoy the ride, she could get quite bumpy!

Why are people worried about what other counties think of us?? Plenty of people have said to me about it and i couldnt care less.. New manager was needed, he did an adequate job but for waterford to progress they needed a professional approach...

Amprodude

Brad1234 wrote: »

Why are people worried about what other counties think of us?? Plenty of people have said to me about it and i couldnt care less.. New manager was needed, he did an adequate job but for waterford to progress they needed a professional approach...

Seriously? I thought Ryan did well this year in charge? Professional approach? I thought that was a given with any manager at this level?

Brad1234

Amprodude wrote: »

Seriously? I thought Ryan did well this year in charge? Professional approach? I thought that was a given with any manager at this level?

How many backroom changes did ryan make in his tenure and by all accounts had to make it again for the new season which was one of this issues?

rebel girl 15

Mullane denies having anything to do with Ryan's removal

http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/mullane-i-had-nothing-to-do-with-ryan-removal-603474.html

tonc76

@RTEChampMatters: On the show this thurs we have @JoeyCan88 , Liam Rushe and @WaterfordGAA Michael Ryan who will give his side to the story in Waterford ....

chinguetti

tomkelly hits the nail on the head. The players haven't clairifed any of this news that came out regarding Sunday. The CB don't seem to know much either from what has been reported.

If the players had put any thought in this, they would have put forward a spokesman and a statement after meeting the CB and Ryan to hammer out any issues. Everyone wants to know what happened at this players meeting, who was there etc but the vaccum of silence is driving all the various stories that 'i met a guy who knows a guy who is on the panel..'.

Its not like they didn't see what happened in 2008 with the lack of a plan. At least if Donal Og does come in (not a hope in my mind), he could teach them how to look professional if they do a players' revolt.

doz

http://examiner.ie/sport/cusack-in-running-for-deise-job-239669.html

Some more pieces of info contained in the above, no idea how accurate. Suggestion that one of the younger members of the panel was nominated to break the news to Michael Ryan is pretty alarming.

Mountainlad

chinguetti wrote: »

tomkelly hits the nail on the head. The players haven't clairifed any of this news that came out regarding Sunday. The CB don't seem to know much either from what has been reported.

If the players had put any thought in this, they would have put forward a spokesman and a statement after meeting the CB and Ryan to hammer out any issues. Everyone wants to know what happened at this players meeting, who was there etc but the vaccum of silence is driving all the various stories that 'i met a guy who knows a guy who is on the panel..'.

Its not like they didn't see what happened in 2008 with the lack of a plan. At least if Donal Og does come in (not a hope in my mind), he could teach them how to look professional if they do a players' revolt.

I don't think we're entitled to know exactly who was there or how they voted. But I do believe that after this meeting or whenever the course of action they should have taken was to consult not just the County board but them and Ryan together.

It seems that's not what was done though obviously I'm not 100% on that, nobody can be. But assuming it is just for the minute, if they had just consulted him and the County Board and the issue was unresolvable I have no doubt Ryan would have stepped aside if that's what was really wanted. Maybe he wasn't up to the standard they required and at the end of the day players no best, but the man did put a lot of effort in, is self-employed and deserves a bit of respect for the sacrifices he's made.

doz

tonc76 wrote: »

@RTEChampMatters: On the show this thurs we have @JoeyCan88 , Liam Rushe and @WaterfordGAA Michael Ryan who will give his side to the story in Waterford ....

I hope and expect that he will provide a very dignified account of events. The players now have until Thursday to do the same.

parish girl

How anyone can say we made progress under Ml Ryan is beyond me. The facts are we contested 6 semi in a row prior to Ml Ryan and during his tenure we exited at Quarter final stage in year one and exited at the qualifier stage in year 2. If that's progress what's going backwards??

PTH2009

have a feeling Donal Og Cusack will rule himself out of the running order for the job.

Id put Dereck Mcgrath Favourite with Kevin Ryan 2nd, Ken Mcgrath 3rd

Sam Swarek

PTH2009 wrote: »

have a feeling Donal Og Cusack will rule himself out of the running order for the job.

Id put Dereck Mcgrath Favourite with Kevin Ryan 2nd, Ken Mcgrath 3rd

none of the 3 will get it, will you stop firing names out there, do your homework first, I could tell you why all 3 wont be considered for the job.

Sam Swarek

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

Sam Swarek may be a bit confrontational in making his points but they do reflect some of the sentiment within the camp from what I've heard myself, and I wouldn't have any great insight at all.

Thank you and well said RnahE

Sam Swarek

robopaddy wrote: »

ok.

why dont you go off somewhere all your own intelligent type are then and you wont have to put up with us delinquents anymore

Paddy Ive caught you out a number of times on here for being a spoofer that doesn't know very much so maybe you should run along like a good little boy.

Ropaire

Sam Swarek wrote: »

none of the 3 will get it, will you stop firing names out there, do your homework first, I could tell you why all 3 wont be considered for the job.

Go on then, enlighten us.

[Deleted User]

parish girl wrote: »

How anyone can say we made progress under Ml Ryan is beyond me. The facts are we contested 6 semi in a row prior to Ml Ryan and during his tenure we exited at Quarter final stage in year one and exited at the qualifier stage in year 2. If that's progress what's going backwards??

Michael Ryan came in when Waterford were at the end of their cycle tbf. He didnt inherit a panel containing Ken Mcgrath, Paul Flynn, a young Tony Browne, Dan Shanahan, Seamus Prendergast, etc like Davy, Justin or Gerald McCarthy did all those years ago. Instead he inherited a very young panel in the midst of a rebuilding process so perhaps it unfair to suggest he took ye backwards. He needed a few years i feel to get ye back with a serious chance of contesting.

I felt they left it behind them against Kilkenny the night and had he won that game then Waterford would have been looking at things from a different perspective.

doz

Sam Swarek wrote: »

Paddy Ive caught you out a number of times on here for being a spoofer that doesn't know very much so maybe you should run along like a good little boy.

You may occasionally make a reasonable point or two but when asked for specifics you generally don't respond. I asked who you would have appointed in Ryan's place, no response and you were asked how you were able to dismiss one poster's suggestions about a list of potential replacements, also no response.

Is it really necessary to be acting all high, mighty and all knowing in responding to regular posters comments or suggestions? It's keyboard warrioring at its worst and frankly a bit pathetic. This is a discussion forum, no rights or wrongs, so just grow up a bit.