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Cyclists in bus lanes (cut from 'giving way to buses' thread)

bmaxi

The whole idea of bus lanes is to shorten bus journey times, so logically buses coming out of bus lanes should always have priority or any advantage
is lost. As usual in Ireland, these things are introduced in a ham fisted way, more for visual than practical effect, politicians showing how advanced in thinking they are without considering the full picture. It's easy to paint lines on roads when they mean fcuk all, for instance, I can never understand why bicycles are allowed to share bus lanes, they should have a dedicated lane to themselves although, having said that, they probably wouldn't use them. Just the other day I came across three buses stuck behind a bicycle in the bus lane on Stillorgan Road, even though there is a perfectly good cycle lane on the footpath. Proper penalties and a modicum of enforcement would solve a lot of our traffic congestion problems but apparently there are only two road traffic offences on the statute books, ironically the two which are most easily detected with the minimum of effort.

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No Pants

I work outside of the city centre (Blanch) and I drive or cycle to work. I'm lucky to have showers there, plus somewhere to stash a towel. When I wake up in the morning and look out the window, if it's dry and I'm not feeling too lazy, I'll cycle it. It's a 35 minute cycle vs. a 20 minute drive. Apart from the odd bit of swearing at rain clouds and cursing the climate of the country, I don't regret cycling on the days that I do it.

Over the last two months I have had occasion to drive to/through the city centre and I've hated it. Stop/start, stop/start. I don't know why anyone bothers. If I had to commute in, I'd be on the bus, train or bike. At the very least I'd park and ride.

Zebra3

Chiparus wrote: »

I paid 100k in direct taxes plus over 3k in motor tax, now can I have a cycle lane to a similar standard as the bus lane?

Only if you pay this mysterious road tax as well.

Surveyor11

Seaneh wrote: »

ITT: the usual uneducated indo reading, George hook listening, nonsensical anti cyclist motornazis who spout the usual ****e about "road tax" (which doesn't exist) and cyclists "breaking the law" while ignoring the fact that motorists routinely speed, use mobile phones, cut people off, drive aggressively and are, without any debate, the single biggest reason our cities roads are so congested because they are too lazy to get off their fat arses and walk, run, cycle or take a bus to the places they work/shop/socialise/go to college/whatever when the vast majority of them are making trips of less than 5km.

Agree, it's a fact that we're up there with the Americans in terms of being almost entirely car dependent and people that are wed to the car find it hard to see beyond the alternatives. The car is seen as the be all and end all and people who defend the car for daily use where there are viable alternatives can't see beyond it. Anyone who gets in the way of this is seen as somehow infringing in the cars enjoyment as the only alternative for the majority of the population. Over car dependency leads to frustration and the clogging of our streets - look at how relatively quiet the roads are in the summer where schools are off. I would suggest that the majority if kids on our local school could walk or cycle but parents insist in driving them, thereby compounding the problem.

As a non-scientific sample, I have neighbours who drive less than a 10 minute walk to work, will also drive the 800m to the local train station, pay for a days parking and drive home again. Two of my work colleagues work and live in the same neighbourhood but chose to drive where walking would be perfectly viable.

Where I work is on a luas line, very handy for getting into the city for meetings - no hassle with traffic or parking. Yet we frequently have mad situations where 4 cars leave the office for 4 separate people to attend the same meeting. One colleague who worked for the company for 8 years came with me to a meeting on the luas - hadn't a clue where the stop was, how much it costs and was amazed that there are two lines out where we work (saggart and Tallaght)

Seaneh

ITT: the usual uneducated indo reading, George hook listening, nonsensical anti cyclist motornazis who spout the usual ****e about "road tax" (which doesn't exist) and cyclists "breaking the law" while ignoring the fact that motorists routinely speed, use mobile phones, cut people off, drive aggressively and are, without any debate, the single biggest reason our cities roads are so congested because they are too lazy to get off their fat arses and walk, run, cycle or take a bus to the places they work/shop/socialise/go to college/whatever when the vast majority of them are making trips of less than 5km.

Chiparus

bmaxi wrote: »

You're quite right, my original gripe was with cyclists not using the cycle lane, I don't believe cyclists should be using the bus lane the bus lane should be for buses and emergency vehicles only, thereby giving those vehicles priority. Later a poster said that the cyclist was probably using the bus lane because the cycle lane was in poor condition and I posted a picture of the cycle lane in question which I consider to be perfectly adequate. Following on that we had criticism of that particular cycle lane so I'm suggesting if cyclists want pristine conditions they should be prepared to pay for them, the normal way for other road users is through taxes.

I paid 100k in direct taxes plus over 3k in motor tax, now can I have a cycle lane to a similar standard as the bus lane?

No Pants

I'd be happy if I never saw a cycle lane again. I rarely use them due to their unpredictability.

Cookie_Monster

SeanW wrote: »

If cycling was so much better than using a bus in every single one of those cases how come so many people do the latter?

people are lazy. why do you think obesity is such a big issue in Ireland (and the rest of the developed world). Combined with most workplaces not even having a shower or changing room its hardly ideal for many.

beauf

Perhaps they are all aware of the problems of the cycle lanes on that route?
Perhaps most of them have never tried cycling the route?
Perhaps it prevented an accident between a cyclist and a pedestrian on the same path?

SeanW

beauf wrote: »

Considering those people spent 10 mins waiting on the bus, and perhaps another 10~20 mins walking to and from bus stops. Then probably 5 mins for all the bus stops by the bus and the bus they are following. Not to mention another few minutes queuing in traffic where there is no bus lane.

Thats 30~40mins x 120 people they could all cut from their commute by cycling.

The who knows how much healthier they'd be exercising for that time, and not catching bugs and coughs from other passengers.

Which is the better idea.

If cycling was so much better than using a bus in every single one of those cases how come so many people do the latter? Could it possibly be - suprise surprise - that the bus is most suited to their needs? Additionally, assuming that your figures were correct, how does this justify one cyclist adding a minimum of 120 person/minutes to a journey? Especially when motorists get bashed for doing something similar?

beauf

bmaxi wrote: »

...Just the other day I came across three buses stuck behind a bicycle in the bus lane on Stillorgan Road, even though there is a perfectly good cycle lane on the footpath. ...

I don't cycle that road, and obviously there are some people who refuse to use cycle lanes regardless if they are good or not. But seems like theres some known issues with this route...

http://www.dublincycling.ie/node/137

...More generally, a big problem with the Stillorgan route is one of pedestrians wandering on to the cycle path...

beauf

SeanW wrote: »

...In this case there is one cyclist holding up three buses carrying - random guess - 120 people. So if the cyclist holds them up for one minute, that is 120 person/minutes of lost time. Again, maybe this seems like a good idea to you?

Considering those people spent 10 mins waiting on the bus, and perhaps another 10~20 mins walking to and from bus stops. Then probably 5 mins for all the bus stops by the bus and the bus they are following. Not to mention another few minutes queuing in traffic where there is no bus lane.

Thats 30~40mins x 120 people they could all cut from their commute by cycling.

The who knows how much healthier they'd be exercising for that time, and not catching bugs and coughs from other passengers.

Which is the better idea.

beauf

SeanW wrote: »

Getting more people onto bikes that obey the laws of the road and have respect for other road users would indeed be a good plan. However I don't think that is what is being pursued.

Ditto the speed limits and drivers on mobiles.

Garda do regular publicity blitz of such things, including cyclists. But its not enforced for the most part. Stand on any street corner and you'll see the usual law breaking by motorists and cyclists alike.

[Deleted User]

I had a situation in O'Connell Street a few months ago where a Dublin Bus driver beeped me out of the cycle lane so he could pull in front of me and load up. So I ended up having to sit behind him until he was done. I rarely use my bike now because I got tired of being treated like crap on the roads, I wasn't mentally able to cope with it.

SeanW

beauf wrote: »

For how long. A minute, maybe two? What happens if a bus making lots of stops is in front, how long does that hold up all the other buses?

But according to the original thread, it was horrible and nasty for those evil motorists to delay a bus for a few seconds by not letting it into the main traffic stream, out of a bus lane or whatever, for the reason that there is one person in the car versus perhaps 40+ on the bus.

In this case there is one cyclist holding up three buses carrying - random guess - 120 people. So if the cyclist holds them up for one minute, that is 120 person/minutes of lost time. Again, maybe this seems like a good idea to you?

beauf

SeanW wrote: »

...If you're not a motorist, you get to use the roads without paying a tax on that usage free, subsidised by motorists. ....

Not true roads are funded by the general tax pool. So your paying for them even if you're not a motorist.

SeanW

ezra_pound wrote: »

But it is the plan! Are you in denial or something?

Getting more people onto bikes that obey the laws of the road and have respect for other road users would indeed be a good plan. However I don't think that is what is being pursued.

beauf

SeanW wrote: »

Vehicles are not supposed to use the overtaking lane unless they are overtaking slower traffic.

...and?

SeanW wrote: »

Re-read the post. THREE buses. not something to sneeze at.

For how long. A minute, maybe two? What happens if a bus making lots of stops is in front, how long does that hold up all the other buses?

SeanW wrote: »

Great, get lots of people onto bikes, and let them block buses, cycle four abreast and have no means of enforcing road laws against a now dramatically increased unruly horde of clowns menacing pedestrians and disregarding red lights and every other inconvenient road law. Sounds like a plan

Lets move them all into cars, see how that helps.

bicycles now account for almost 9 per cent of vehicles coming into the city centre during the morning peak.

ezra_pound

SeanW wrote: »

Vehicles are no...
Great, get lots of people onto bikes, and let them block buses, cycle four abreast and have no means of enforcing road laws against a now dramatically increased unruly horde of clowns menacing pedestrians and disregarding red lights and every other inconvenient road law. Sounds like a plan

But it is the plan! Are you in denial or something?

SeanW

beauf wrote: »

Except a car isn't a necessity for using the road. If I get a bus I'm using the road. If I cycle I'm using the road. If I walk or run on the road I'm using the road.

But your ability to make use of said road will be severely limited by your failure to road-tax a car.

So motor tax is simply a tax to have a motor on the road.

If you are a motorist, then it's a tax to use the roads. That makes it a road tax payable only by motorists. If you're not a motorist, you get to use the roads without paying a tax on that usage free, subsidised by motorists. Though as I suggested previously, your ability to do so is limited.

SeanW

beauf wrote: »

Thats a bit like saying why have an overtaking lane if people won't move out of it to let faster traffic past.

Vehicles are not supposed to use the overtaking lane unless they are overtaking slower traffic.

I think that's a bit of an over reaction. A bus isn't going to be held up for long by a cyclist.

Re-read the post. THREE buses. not something to sneeze at.

What you need to solve congestion is to reduce the amount of motor vehicles. One of the best ways to achieve that is to get people on a bicycle.

Great, get lots of people onto bikes, and let them block buses, cycle four abreast and have no means of enforcing road laws against a now dramatically increased unruly horde of clowns menacing pedestrians and disregarding red lights and every other inconvenient road law. Sounds like a plan

HurtLocker

Karsini wrote: »

Genuine question for those demanding a licensing/registration system for cyclists. Is there any country in the world that actually does this?

Honolulu in Hawaii is the only one I could find.Not a bike licence but a bike registration tax and owner registration. It actually makes a bit of sense.

http://www1.honolulu.gov/dts/bikereg.htm

All bicycles with 20" or larger wheels are required to be registered in the City and County of Honolulu. There is a one-time fee of $15 and a fee of $5 when transferring ownership of a bicycle. After payment of the fee, the owner will be provided with a decal to be attached to the bicycle frame's seat tube facing the forward direction. All taxes collected from the registration fees are deposited in a special bikeway fund which can only be used for bicycle-related City projects and programs.

beauf

SeanW wrote: »

For many if not most, this distinction is academic, since the car is a necessity for using the roads. Ergo it may as well be a road tax.......

Except a car isn't a necessity for using the road. If I get a bus I'm using the road. If I cycle I'm using the road. If I walk or run on the road I'm using the road.

So motor tax is simply a tax to have a motor on the road.

[Deleted User]

Genuine question for those demanding a licensing/registration system for cyclists. Is there any country in the world that actually does this?

TheChizler

Well fortunately the law is not made specifically for people who are late driving from longford to roscommon because they were too busy cooking fry ups...

SeanW

beauf wrote: »

Or a bus,

I would sure love to see the Arigna to Co. Longford villages 24-hour bus timetable

SeanW

beauf wrote: »

You could just get a taxi.

The taxi has to pay road tax too, as would the nonexistant bus.
You would have to get a taxi out to your current location.
The cost of the taxi would be far, far above the cost of a daily share of an annual road tax bill - even the extortionate €800 that I must pay on a 15 year old saloon.
You would have the same problems coming back.

beauf

SeanW wrote: »

Your ability to make use of the roads is severely limited if you do not pay the tax.

For example, suppose you live in, oh, say rural Co. Longford and you realise at 9PM that you need to be in (for example) Argina, Co. Roscommon by midnight. The only realistic way to accomplish this is with the assitance of private motorised transport, and to do that you must have paid the tax to use that on the road.....

You could just get a taxi.

Or a bus,

...either case you'd have paid no road tax.

SeanW

monument wrote: »

There's no mass of people declaring their cars off the road and only using such cars off-road or on roads not covered by traffic law.

Doesn't matter. It's perfectly legal to own a car and not pay tax on it by not using it on public roads.

It is ONLY because a motorist uses their car on taxable roads that they have to pay tax for using the road. Again, if motorists did not have to pay tax on their cars - a tax that is specifically and unavoidably linked to using the roads as a motorist - then it would make no sense for a motorist to use the term road tax.

External benefits of say commuters and shoppers is much lower than external benefits of cycling.

Really? That's why - in the Galway bypass thread - it was claimed that the Galway commercial sector wanted the bypass to free up road space for shoppers - because the benefits of motorists driving to shops is negligable.

Also the external benefits in terms of personal mobility - unachievable by any other means - were alluded to in my last post.

beauf

bmaxi wrote: »

.... I can never understand why bicycles are allowed to share bus lanes, they should have a dedicated lane to themselves although, having said that, they probably wouldn't use them.

Thats a bit like saying why have an overtaking lane if people won't move out of it to let faster traffic past.

bmaxi wrote: »

... Just the other day I came across three buses stuck behind a bicycle in the bus lane on Stillorgan Road, even though there is a perfectly good cycle lane on the footpath. Proper penalties and a modicum of enforcement would solve a lot of our traffic congestion problems .....

I think that's a bit of an over reaction. A bus isn't going to be held up for long by a cyclist. What you need to solve congestion is to reduce the amount of motor vehicles. One of the best ways to achieve that is to get people on a bicycle.

So you've kinda got it backwards. Sure there's always people who won't follow the rules. But the bigger picture is getting people out of their cars. My commute by bus or train is an hour minimum. By cycle its 35~60 mins, and I can leave anytime, I don't have to hang around waiting, and its the same time regardless of traffic.

SeanW

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no it's not. There are many ways of using the roads that are not car based. I would have thought that's a very obvious thing.

Your ability to make use of the roads is severely limited if you do not pay the tax.

For example, suppose you live in, oh, say rural Co. Longford and you realise at 9PM that you need to be in (for example) Argina, Co. Roscommon by midnight. The only realistic way to accomplish this is with the assitance of private motorised transport, and to do that you must have paid the tax to use that on the road.

Unless you live very close to a frequent, all day public transport system or a good quality cycle network and you only ever need to go to places covered by such systems, your ability to use the roads will be limited to a significat - if not severe - degree by your failure have a car that is covered by the appropriate road usage tax on that car.

But it's not called (a) road tax, only by the short-sighted idiots who are too stupid to learn the proper term.

Only because "road tax" is a colloquial term (one that is entirely valid from the POV of a motorist).

To expand on that point, suppose your friend showed you this picture:

of a meal that he was about to consume and said "this is a delicious looking fry-up."

Would you respond by saying "that is a breakfast meal consisting of mashed potatoes, sausages, hash browns, beans and bacon, and you are only calling it a "fry up" because you are a short sighted stupid idiot who refuses to learn the "proper" term?"