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Welfare Fraud Roadblock Ahead!

MadsL

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/chasing-the-cheats-my-day-with-the-welfare-fraud-police-29211815.html

Sorry for the old story, but I just became aware of these roadblocks from the other thread on 'gotcha' speeding fines.

Whilst I fully appreciate efforts to clamp down on Welfare Fraud, could someone clarify why on earth you would co-operate with roadside interrogation by a Government official. Surely stopping someone, pulling them out of the car seperately and then interrogating them cannot be constitutional?

Too far? I thinks so...what do you think AH?

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Rightwing

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/chasing-the-cheats-my-day-with-the-welfare-fraud-police-29211815.html

Sorry for the old story, but I just became aware of these roadblocks from the other thread on 'gotcha' speeding fines.

Whilst I fully appreciate efforts to clamp down on Welfare Fraud, could someone clarify why on earth you would co-operate with roadside interrogation by a Government official. Surely stopping someone, pulling them out of the car seperately and then interrogating them cannot be constitutional?

Too far? I thinks so...what do you think AH?

If you didn't co-operate with the official, you'd lose your entitlements?

Now, if they were stopping genuine people going to work,,,you'd tell the numpty where to go.

Senna

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/chasing-the-cheats-my-day-with-the-welfare-fraud-police-29211815.html

Sorry for the old story, but I just became aware of these roadblocks from the other thread on 'gotcha' speeding fines.

Whilst I fully appreciate efforts to clamp down on Welfare Fraud, could someone clarify why on earth you would co-operate with roadside interrogation by a Government official. Surely stopping someone, pulling them out of the car seperately and then interrogating them cannot be constitutional?

Too far? I thinks so...what do you think AH?

Something should be done, bla bla bla...........they better not inconvenience me, I'm far to important.

MadsL

Rightwing wrote: »

If you didn't co-operate with the official, you'd lose your entitlements?

How would that be fair or just?? Papers please!! Is this Ireland or 30's Germany?

]Now, if they were stopping genuine people going to work,,,you'd tell the numpty where to go.

I believe they are stopping everyone...

Senna wrote: »

Something should be done, bla bla bla...........they better not inconvenience me, I'm far to important.

I'm asking how someone can be stopped on the road, when they have committed no traffic offence and then interrogated. Seems a bit much does it not?

wazky

So the whole operation is based on asking people are they on their way to work and hoping they tell the truth?

Foolproof.

hfallada

Most building companies want to pay their work on the book. But any builder will tell you they cant get workers at an affordable rate as they want a high wage because they are far better off on benefit. Most of them wouldnt work for anything less than €650 a week on the books. So they either work off the books in cash or the Government needs to cuts benefit so people have an incentive to get a job again.

bgrizzley

MadsL wrote: »

Papers please!! Is this Ireland or 30's Germany?

nice. Godwinned in 4 posts.

(i agree with you all the same...)

AndonHandon

hfallada wrote: »

Most building companies want to pay their work on the book. But any builder will tell you they cant get workers at an affordable rate as they want a high wage because they are far better off on benefit. Most of them wouldnt work for anything less than €650 a week on the books. So they either work off the books in cash or the Government needs to cuts benefit so people have an incentive to get a job again.

It's that simple. But it isn't the social welfare rate; it's the allowances. Single, desperate mothers I'm looking at you. I pay a lot of taxes and don't get great healthcare while you guys get a house; **** that!

Tigger

Been stopped a few times by these
The cop asks you the questions and the sw official hovers behind him checking stuff
You have to tell a garda who you are and where you live and where you are going if you are driving
Funnily I was only telling someone about this today

koalabeard

Tigger wrote: »

Been stopped a few times by these
The cop asks you the questions and the sw official hovers behind him checking stuff
You have to tell a garda who you are and where you live and where you are going if you are driving
Funnily I was only telling someone about this today

They know most of this stuff from 500 metres away. The New reg plate reading system will tell them who owns what car etc. The more probable reason for these searches is putting the fear of God into the average Joe.

MadsL

Tigger wrote: »

Been stopped a few times by these
The cop asks you the questions and the sw official hovers behind him checking stuff
You have to tell a garda who you are and where you live and where you are going if you are driving
Funnily I was only telling someone about this today

Funnily enough there is no law that requires you to answer questions other than name and address.

A simple "I don't wish to answer" and "am I being detained, guard, or am I free to go?"

and off you go.

Very legally suspect these roadblocks.

knotknowbody

Tigger wrote: »

You have to tell a garda who you are and where you live

True, if you stopped and asked you must tell them your name and address.

Tigger wrote: »

and where you are going if you are driving

Not True, there is no obligation to tell them where your going, but probably easier than refusing as a refusal will make them suspicious.

Stinicker

koalabeard wrote: »

They know most of this stuff from 500 metres away. The New reg plate reading system will tell them who owns what car etc. The more probable reason for these searches is putting the fear of God into the average Joe.

Expect I think that less than 10 squad cars in the whole country have that ANPR equipment

koalabeard

Stinicker wrote: »

Expect I think that less than 10 squad cars in the whole country have that ANPR equipment

All ten must be near me so.

MadsL

knotknowbody wrote: »

Not True, there is no obligation to tell them where your going, but probably easier than refusing as a refusal will make them suspicious.

Will your name be added to a list, Tony?

Tigger

koalabeard wrote: »

They know most of this stuff from 500 metres away. The New reg plate reading system will tell them who owns what car etc. The more probable reason for these searches is putting the fear of God into the average Joe.

They get the admission that you are going to work
Reg plate won't tell them that

dxhound2005

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/chasing-the-cheats-my-day-with-the-welfare-fraud-police-29211815.html

Sorry for the old story, but I just became aware of these roadblocks from the other thread on 'gotcha' speeding fines.

Whilst I fully appreciate efforts to clamp down on Welfare Fraud, could someone clarify why on earth you would co-operate with roadside interrogation by a Government official. Surely stopping someone, pulling them out of the car seperately and then interrogating them cannot be constitutional?

Too far? I thinks so...what do you think AH?

MadsL wrote: »

Funnily enough there is no law that requires you to answer questions other than name and address.

A simple "I don't wish to answer" and "am I being detained, guard, or am I free to go?"

and off you go.

Very legally suspect these roadblocks.

Are you some sort of legal professional? What makes these checkpoints legally suspect and what is unconstitutional about the methods used as reported in the article? I didn't see any mention of people being pulled out of cars. If they are legally suspect and unconstitutional it's very surprising to me that our lawyer friends haven't been all over them. Especially when they have been in operation since 1999 if not before.

I also fully appreciate efforts to clamp down on welfare fraud and I appreciate that these anti-fraud checkpoints have produced good results to that end.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dole-fraud-checkpoints-a-success-26155347.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/checkpoints-clamp-down-on-tax-and-benefit-cheats-29408487.html

Jester252

They are designed to catch people. The guards can stop you but the only thing you have to tell them is your name and addresses. The rest is just fishing for information or hoping to trip people up and confess. You're not require to answer them. Just don't act up about and you be off.

dxhound2005

Jester252 wrote: »

They are designed to catch people. The guards can stop you but the only thing you have to tell them is your name and addresses. The rest is just fishing for information or hoping to trip people up and confess. You're not require to answer them. Just don't act up about and you be off.

Yes I would think they are designed to catch people. And they have caught people at least according to the Independent.

Jester252

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Yes I would think they are designed to catch people. And they have caught people at least according to the Independent.

That the beauty behind them. You don't need to collect evidence about them commit welfare fraud when they basically tell you that they are doing it. Easy collars

WilyCoyote

There was talk of doing this about 12 years ago. But I was under the impression it was aimed at the fellow with the roofrack and a ladder atop.

unkel

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I also fully appreciate efforts to clamp down on welfare fraud and I appreciate that these anti-fraud checkpoints have produced good results to that end.

+1

Do you not see we can't afford to dole out money to fraudsters any more, MadsL? We need to do everything possible to give welfare money only to people who really need it.

Mint Sauce

So what if you are not claiming welfare, and are actually going to work.

Do do have a checklist of what to look out for, ie, some kind of profiling method.

koalabeard

Tigger wrote: »

They get the admission that you are going to work
Reg plate won't tell them that

People won't tell the gards they're off to commit a crime. (Welfare fraud) Story doesn't add up.

TireeTerror

Is there no right to remain silent in Ireland? If a Garda asks you your name and address, what would happen if you simply replied "Have I committed an offence? Are you detaining me? I do not wish to provide any details unless I am suspected of having commited an offence. I wish to be on my way, may I leave now?"

Perhaps the driver legally has to provide name etc to prove he has a licence, but is it actually the law, or just something we all assume because it makes sense.

IS it true they are separating the driver from a passenger? Why would anyone even have to unlock the car doors? The driver could put the window down just a tiny bit to hear the Garda. I cant see why the passenger would even have to open their mouth at all, as if there was no offence being committed, surely they dont have to say a thing. Why would you potentially incriminate yourself by answering any questions.

I find these points of law so interesting, not because Im up to no good, but I just cannot stand the Government and the way everyone interferes with others lives.

worded

TireeTerror wrote: »

Is there no right to remain silent in Ireland? If a Garda asks you your name and address, what would happen if you simply replied "Have I committed an offence? Are you detaining me? I do not wish to provide any details unless I am suspected of having commited an offence. I wish to be on my way, may I leave now?"

Perhaps the driver legally has to provide name etc to prove he has a licence, but is it actually the law, or just something we all assume because it makes sense.

IS it true they are separating the driver from a passenger? Why would anyone even have to unlock the car doors? The driver could put the window down just a tiny bit to hear the Garda. I cant see why the passenger would even have to open their mouth at all, as if there was no offence being committed, surely they dont have to say a thing. Why would you potentially incriminate yourself by answering any questions.

I find these points of law so interesting, not because Im up to no good, but I just cannot stand the Government and the way everyone interferes with others lives.

If they save 75k per day of an operation like this its we'll worth it

unkel

TireeTerror wrote: »

Is there no right to remain silent in Ireland? If a Garda asks you your name and address, what would happen if you simply replied "Have I committed an offence? Are you detaining me?

Why wouldn't you answer the question if you did nothing wrong? People dodging these questions are likely to be very dodgy indeed. If you've done no wrong, you've nothing to fear.

smellmepower

Stinicker wrote: »

Expect I think that less than 10 squad cars in the whole country have that ANPR equipment

Majority of the Traffic Corps fleet have them now.

TireeTerror

Im not asking about the benefits of these stops. Im merely asking based on a point of law. Several forum members have posted stating that you "must" provide the Gardai with your name and address if asked. I do not believe this to be the case.

Im not even convinced that the Gardai are allowed to just stop people randomly with no cause. I thought as citizens we are entitled to our privacy and to go about our business without interruption by the Gardai unless suspected of having committed an offence.

Of course in most general day to day situations, it will almost certainly be easier to simply give your name and address and get on your way, but Im asking here about what the law is, not what makes life easier. If the Gardai are empowered to enforce the law, I expect them to adhere to it themselves. Has there been some provision, or some Act which makes it a criminal offence to refuse to provide your personal details in the event that you are not actually suspected of an offence, rather you have just been stopped because they are fishing for info in the hope they catch someone out. I think its wrong and I dont like the idea that they can delay citizens going about their business, in the hope they might stumble across a dodgy welfare claimant.

Elbaston

A simple 'I don't answer questions' 'am I being charged' should do the trick.

Although I wish they did have more power to catch and charge the cheats.

(can they not do ya if you're in a work vehicle ... i heard some waffle about this)

Maybe get their mobile numbers off the database, call them, tell them a mate of a mate told you this guys a good tradesman and can he come along to a job. Catch them with their screwdriver in their hands, like some panorama program.

101 legal factors with that though, probably wouldn't work.

$Photo of DonkeyStyle \o/$ DonkeyStyle \o/

unkel wrote: »

Why wouldn't you answer the question if you did nothing wrong? People dodging these questions are likely to be very dodgy indeed. If you've done no wrong, you've nothing to fear.

Well, either dodgy, or someone who's thought about what it means to live in a free country. Maybe being stopped and questioned to make sure they're not committing any crimes is a price some people aren't willing to pay. It can be irritating on a philosophical level for a lot of people. It's a big thing in the USA, plenty of people pissed about their 4th amendment rights being trampled on.