nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Flukey

I am just about to bring my new Leap card into the strange world of public transport to test it. There are already several Leap threads going and we've already had some points about its usage raised in them. Maybe we can keep this thread for more specific feedback by the people who have actually got a card and leave the more general discussions on it to the other threads. So if you have some specific feedback from actually using the card put it in here, as briefly as possible. Then we can all use it when we are feeding back our experiences in the questionnaires we are all supposed to be getting. If anything arises here that people would like to discuss in more detail, switch to one of the other threads which already have a broad range of discussion about it that is likely to be relevant. Anyway, my Leap card and I are about to head out. Wish us luck!:D

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

JohnnyY

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Lost my leapcard today, have it registered and they're sending out a replacement. Any idea how long I'll be waiting? Says it can take up to 10 business days =/

Typically 5-10 days

JohnnyY

n0brain3r wrote: »

Does anyone know if you dip into the deposit on your Leap card and the refund when you tag off puts you back in credit again are you are prevented from using the deposit again until you add more credit? I had this happen and was just wondering was it the norm.

You can use the card as long as the card balance is positive. if the Tag Off brings it back to positive balance, then it can be used again.

AlekSmart

Stevek101 wrote: »

Shall I post the leaflet all drivers received when the Leap Card launched? It explains everything clearly and nothings changed since then...

On the issue of correct info; I haven't encounted a driver yet who has a clue how to do a annulment after they issue the wrong fare. It's pretty ridiculous considing they have the info on how to do it for years now.

Thankfully I rarely do a Leapcard annulment,but ready and willing should the need arise.

What makes the OP's issue strange to my mind,is the fact that once in positive balance,the Leap Fare Menu will automatically appear (eventually...).

That means travel allowed full-stop,without any further Driver input or perusal of the Balance once the Fare Button is hit.

Drivers were issued with one leaflet and a quick updated one upon Leapcard introduction,since then silence has prevailed,with no feedback whatever....which is,of course a two-way process which the ITS people could equally use to get a handle on just how their system is actually functioning.

One quite concerning statistic I noted yesterday (Wed) on my Duty's first half was that ZERO ITS passes were presented over a 4hr 45 min period and over the 8hr shift a TOTAL of 5 ITS passes was recorded...now,even allowing for the graduated and planned soft-introduction of Leapcard,If I were the NTA,I would be concerned at this...?

Aard

AlekSmart wrote: »

One quite concerning statistic I noted yesterday (Wed) on my Duty's first half was that ZERO ITS passes were presented over a 4hr 45 min period and over the 8hr shift a TOTAL of 5 ITS passes was recorded...now,even allowing for the graduated and planned soft-introduction of Leapcard,If I were the NTA,I would be concerned at this...?

What route was this? In my completely unscientific research, it appears that Leap usage is higher in wealthier areas. Areas with high unemployment might be less likely to have high Leap penetration.

MOH

Personally, if I didn't already have one, the imminent threat of a resumption of the DB strike would make me highly unlikely to commit funds to a Leap card, given that I'd quite possibly have to pay again for an alternate means of transport.

The Maverick

MOH wrote: »

Personally, if I didn't already have one, the imminent threat of a resumption of the DB strike would make me highly unlikely to commit funds to a Leap card, given that I'd quite possibly have to pay again for an alternate means of transport.

That's a poor enough argument. Leap isn't DB exclusive, what about the DART, Luas, BE and private operators?

Victor

Indeed and Dublin Bus would come back eventually.

Although I suppose if someone is stuck for money, it might be an idea immediately before / during a strike.

LXFlyer

Aard wrote: »

What route was this? In my completely unscientific research, it appears that Leap usage is higher in wealthier areas. Areas with high unemployment might be less likely to have high Leap penetration.

Don't you know that Alek only drives quality routes?

tomred1

Oh my ****ing God!! I went to top up my Leap online and its turns out you still have to visit a load station to actually get the credit on the card!! This is madness, what century do the do the Public Transport companies think we are in? Is the Oyster card this bad?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

tomred1 wrote: »

Oh my ****ing God!! I went to top up my Leap online and its turns out you still have to visit a load station to actually get the credit on the card!! This is madness, what century do the do the Public Transport companies think we are in? Is the Oyster card this bad?

The Oyster card works in the same way.

Though I agree, if the Dublin Bus ticket machines were upgraded this could be avoided *

* Well you might have to wait a few hours before the credit would be loaded, but at least it would be pretty transparent.

Dravokivich

tomred1 wrote: »

Oh my ****ing God!! I went to top up my Leap online and its turns out you still have to visit a load station to actually get the credit on the card!! This is madness, what century do the do the Public Transport companies think we are in? Is the Oyster card this bad?

How else did you expect it to work? Someone queried them about it on twitter recently and Leap Card responded saying "It's not like a mobile phone."

The only time a Leap Card does anything is when it touches a leap configured device.

If you've the card registered on to an account on their website, all that allows you to do is look at historical information for the card. So if you've never used a device with it, nothing can happen. In essence, no credit can be loaded onto it remotely, without it being collected.

tomred1

Dravokivich wrote: »

How else did you expect it to work? Someone queried them about it on twitter recently and Leap Card responded saying "It's not like a mobile phone."

The only time a Leap Card does anything is when it touches a leap configured device.

If you've the card registered on to an account on their website, all that allows you to do is look at historical information for the card. So if you've never used a device with it, nothing can happen. In essence, no credit can be loaded onto it remotely, without it being collected.

I expect to be able to top up a card online without visiting a physical location, what the point even having an online top-up payment section on the website if you need to visit a physical location? The technology is out there (for decades) for a card to be top up online without the need to visit a physical location.
I've had this card for 3 moths now and I can't believe how behind the times it is. It's like they want it to fail.

Dravokivich

But the card has no way of receiving it, without using a device.

Stevek101

tomred1 wrote: »

I expect to be able to top up a card online without visiting a physical location, what the point even having an online top-up payment section on the website if you need to visit a physical location? The technology is out there (for decades) for a card to be top up online without the need to visit a physical location.
I've had this card for 3 moths now and I can't believe how behind the times it is. It's like they want it to fail.

Out of curiosity how do you think the card can receive the credit without collecting it?

markpb

tomred1 wrote: »

The technology is out there (for decades) for a card to be top up online without the need to visit a physical location.

Yes, it's possible but it's not done (anywhere) with good reason. Making the validators connect to an online service to check for topups would be very slow and could make them less reliable. The ultimate aim of those validators is to process people as quickly and reliably as possible. Right now, the entire Leapcard backend could disappear and all the bus/train/tram validators would work as normal.

markpb wrote: »

Yes, it's possible but it's not done (anywhere) with good reason. Making the validators connect to an online service to check for topups would be very slow and could make them less reliable. The ultimate aim of those validators is to process people as quickly and reliably as possible. Right now, the entire Leapcard backend could disappear and all the bus/train/tram validators would work as normal.

True, online validation doesn't make sense.

However if Dublin Bus had better ticket machines with more memory, it would be possible for the ticket machines to store and apply top-ups on the bus when you tag-on.

You could even quickly push new top-ups to a bus via GSM/3G. It is obvious that Dublin bus is already using GSM/3g for the RTPI to work.

The ideal technical solution would be:

- You do an online top-up
- Once an hour, every hour all top-ups are sent to all Irish Rail validators, Luas Validators and Dublin Bus ticket machines via wired or wireless connection.
- Person then tag's on at any of the above and automatically the top-up is applied.

BTW buses and trains in Atlanta work this way, so certainly possible.

tomred1

Stevek101 wrote: »

Out of curiosity how do you think the card can receive the credit without collecting it?

The same way you can top-up a phone online without bringing the phone to a machine. The same way i can pay bills online without bringing cash to a bank. The card when read by the machine should just be telling the machine that this card is user "X" and the machine then checks it database and can tell how much credit i have, all in a matter of milliseconds. Maybe i'm too naive to think this system was possible with modern technology.

goingnowhere

How long does a credit card transaction take to be approved while you are shopping?

Now imagine having to wait that long every time you tag on and off.

Thats why smartcard ticket systems are offline as its the only way to ensure sufficient performance and also means if the backend dies passengers can still use the system.

Mr Simpson

goingnowhere wrote: »

How long does a credit card transaction take to be approved while you are shopping?

With my contactless Visa card? About 1-2 seconds

devnull

tomred1 wrote: »

The same way you can top-up a phone online without bringing the phone to a machine.

The phone has a way to communicate via the outside world since it has a data connection via your pre-pay or contract SIM. A smartcard does not have an aerial, transmitting equipment and a data connection.

goingnowhere

Mr Simpson wrote: »

With my contactless Visa card? About 1-2 seconds

Leap takes less than 500ms currently to tag on/off, the simpler Luas/Irish Rail cards can get through in under 250ms.

Industry target is 500ms or better

Imagine the delays at exit turnstiles, would be impossible in peak hours, basically halve passenger throughput as you would triple the processing time

brownej

Mr Simpson wrote: »

With my contactless Visa card? About 1-2 seconds

If the transaction is being processed that quickly the terminal is probably validating the transaction offline. This is why contactless payments are limited to transactions of €15 or less.

Dravokivich

tomred1 wrote: »

The same way you can top-up a phone online without bringing the phone to a machine. The same way i can pay bills online without bringing cash to a bank. The card when read by the machine should just be telling the machine that this card is user "X" and the machine then checks it database and can tell how much credit i have, all in a matter of milliseconds. Maybe i'm too naive to think this system was possible with modern technology.

A phone... you are comparing a device that is designed for constant connectivity when idle, to a device that is designed for intermittent connectivity even when in use.

tomred1

Dravokivich wrote: »

A phone... you are comparing a device that is designed for constant connectivity when idle, to a device that is designed for intermittent connectivity even when in use.

I'm not comparing them, i am merely saying i think the technology is out there for a leap card to be topped up online by using similar technology that is already in use.
Look at the Debit cards that can be just need to be held near the reader in shops now, i don't have to physically go to the bank to put money on the card but when it read by the device it know there is sufficient credit in the account-holders account.

Dravokivich

tomred1 wrote: »

I'm not comparing them, i am merely saying i think the technology is out there for a leap card to be topped up online by using similar technology that is already in use.

They aren't similar. To explain how much of a difference there is, when the phone is in your pocket, it is more than likely powered on, until the battery drains, then you don't expect to be able to do anything with it, right?

When a Leap Card, or any RFI card for the matter, is in your pocket, it is powered off completely. It is not even on standby. It draws power from devices it uses. So how do you expect it to do something when it's off? If it needs to be on all the time to receive a signal, we'll need ways to keep it powered. Then to get onto receiving a signal. It has no sense of network connectivity. It can't connect to GSM, 3G, 4G, WiFi or Wimax.

What would be needed as referenced by BK, is that the devices receive updates more regularly regarding online transactions.

tomred1 wrote: »

Look at the Debit cards that can be just need to be held near the reader in shops now, i don't have to physically go to the bank to put money on the card but when it read by the device it know there is sufficient credit in the account-holders account.

It doesn't. As explained above, NFC without PIN is limited to a low threshold. That's to minimise the impact of loses if it's later found that there are insufficient funds when reconciliation takes place.

Amirani

In order to avoid increases in the dwell time, why not install separate readers on buses that will allow top-up receipts?

How much would such readers cost roughly?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

brownej

NiallSparky wrote: »

In order to avoid increases in the dwell time, why not install separate readers on buses that will allow top-up receipts?

How much would such readers cost roughly?

These machines would require constant connectivity to the database to perform this task so I'm not sure if its that practical.
A better question would be why they didn't install validators in the new Real time signs at a large number of bus stops. These signs obviously have a realtime connection. I suppose cost is probably the answer and the fact that the new signs are not integrated with the existing bus stop infrastructure i.e. the bus shelters leads me to believe that its a separately operated and controlled system.

Dravokivich

brownej wrote: »

These machines would require constant connectivity to the database to perform this task so I'm not sure if its that practical.
A better question would be why they didn't install validators in the new Real time signs at a large number of bus stops. These signs obviously have a realtime connection. I suppose cost is probably the answer and the fact that the new signs are not integrated with the existing bus stop infrastructure i.e. the bus shelters leads me to believe that its a separately operated and controlled system.

I think part of the issue there could be how a Leap Validator at the stop determines the route being used to calculate the fare. As it needs a start point and an end point and to know what the difference between them is in accordance with the current stage fare system. And stops regularly feature multiple routes.

This isn't a problem with Trains/Luas. because it only goes one way or the other. But a Bus Route can loop around one area, while another just cuts through. Such as where the 37 goes into Blackhorse Ave, while the 39 goes straight to Stoneybatter from the N3.

Edit:
There'd also be the need for rolling RTPI out to all stops then as well. Or have a very low number of stops without it. There's none around me for example.