FlyingIrishMan wrote: » That isn't DRM, that is a method of distribution. Games on demand requires a PS+ subscription, you can be offline or online.
Grumpypants wrote: » The disk contains the licence. That is why you need it to be in the console, the console looks for the licence, it checks on the disk, it says "oh he owns the original disk" and lets you play the game.
shreddedloops wrote: » It's like saying that the N64 cartridges were a form of DRM. No, they weren't. They were the actual product.
shreddedloops wrote: » I think you may be over thinking things. The disc IS the product. Its the delivery method of the game. If you don't have the product you can't play the game. It's like saying that the N64 cartridges were a form of DRM. No, they weren't. They were the actual product.
stevenmu wrote: » Try copying a PS3/Xbox disc and see if it works.
Grumpypants wrote: » It is actually three things, it is the delivery method, it is the software and it is the licence. When all three combine in the correct system you can play the game.
shreddedloops wrote: » Try copying an N64 cartridge! Why would I want to copy a disc? Thats not within my rights. My point is, disc based games can hardly be considered "restrictive". It's the most simple and most fair system for all parties.
_Puma_ wrote: » Here we go again.... Grumpypants in all your posts you ignore the fact that Digital based distribution and all of its benefits are available on both the Xbox 360 and the Playstation 3 already. You can have the benefits of Digital based based distribution if you buy from the online store, albeit in a more restrictive way than Steam.
Grumpypants wrote: » When I want to play my games on one (PS3) I need to bring the disks with me and put it in the system (Unless I have downloaded them from the PSN After explaining the method of using an account to control the licences ala Steam i added PSN/Games on Demand use similar systems but PSN restricts you to 2 consoles and Games on Demand afaik requires you to be always online but maybe someone who uses it can clear that up.
_Puma_ wrote: » The redistribution of this software is managed by a layer of online digital media DRM ie) Logging into your account and activating the content. This ties your license to your account. Can now use it offline if you wish, or log in using the same account on a different machine to install it there. In this way Digital distribution can be better than disc based because you only need to go through the DRM check once.
_Puma_ wrote: » Since the days of the betamax, Disc based DRM has been used to prevent the redistribution of disc based media by linking the license to the disc and is built into the discs themselves. It has worked perfectly fine for the past 20 years and will remain to be the case for the next generation's Disc based media.
_Puma_ wrote: » This is Not what the original Xbox one system was. The original proposed Xbone system was to introduce another layer of online DRM on both disc based and digital media to manage their new system of second hand game trading. It had nothing to do with the benefits of digital based media because that option is already there. In fact they were forcing this new DRM system on top of existing Digital and disc based DRM and removing it's benefits so it would have worked nothing like steam. All in the name of the now infamous family sharing plan, which don't fool yourself, was nothing like what they were portraying it or Publishers would have a fit due to lost sales and would more than likely be given the boot if it was. ie) Online Terms and Conditions of use can be changed at any time.
_Puma_ wrote: » If they truly wanted Digital distribution then they should have removed Disc based media altogether or have a way to convert the disc based media to digital based media that stopped the redistribution of the disc, but of course this was not the real reason for the online check in every 24 hours. It was simply a way for them to enforce the new second hand games policy so they can get a slice of the second hand games market.
_Puma_ wrote: » Now the nut that has not being cracked yet is the second hand sales of digital based media. Always online is not the answer to that and never will be. Of course there is layer of DRM to prevent the redistribution of Disc based media. Otherwise we are talking about open source software, but when you buy your disc you are getting the license and the software. The Xbone system was removing the license element and tying it to an online system. However you can still not copy the disc so it is just an additional layer of DRM. This is what the backlash was about... it was the additional online DRM checks that people were annoyed with, and what will inevitably punish the paying customer more than any software pirates.
_Puma_ wrote: » Cannot spell it out more clearly than that for you.
AlmightyCushion wrote: » I'd disagree. I have 212 games in my Steam library and a few more in Origin. I can install them right now with he click of a button. Over the years I have bought quite a few PC games on disc. I couldn't tell you where any of those discs are now and a lot weren't activatable on Steam or Origin so are pretty much gone. Steam/Origin type of activation is far handier than carting around a load of discs and finding the one you want when you want to play.
shreddedloops wrote: » Thats very true. And I love Steam for that but I always consider PC and consoles to be two completely different systems and I think discs/lending/swapping/trading in just suit consoles better. But I suppose its down to personal preference.
Grumpypants wrote: » I've spent the last year gaming on pc and have got used to the freedom of steam and origin where you install from disk then you can just play any game installed at the press of a button.
Grumpypants wrote: » So for example I have 3 PC's I have steam and Origin installed on all of them and I just need to log in to play my games, all my disks can sit at home on the shelf. (This method is less restrictive)
Grumpypants wrote: » Imagine someone came up with a brand new system. One that mixed the best bits from both, it took the ease of access of having a digital library, even gave you the option to install from disks in case you can't download large files and if you didn't like the game you could sell it to someone else and the system would automatically know you sold it to them and remove your game and add it to their digital library. Would you like a system like that? Or would you say no way I like having a disk in my console. Because that is pretty much what happened.
C14N wrote: » I do too, but realistically, how often are you juggling various games? On my PS3, unless I'm swapping in movies or I have someone around for local multiplayer, the same game tends to be in the console for more than a few game sessions. Even if it wasn't, it's not much of an inconvenience to take a different game off the shelf and put it in. A lot of people find preventing the lending or resale of their games to be more restrictive than not being able to play them without the disc. Besides, you're coming up with more obscure narratives. Very few people will have 3 systems that they want their games installed on and who really don't want to take a disc out and put it in another console. No it is not. To say that it keeps the best of both is misleading at best. The entire idea of second hand games was being made redundant by MS fixing the price. The whole appeal of the second hand market is not only that you can sell your games, but that you can buy them at competitive prices decided by retailers based on supply and demand. The proposed system had all second hand games sold as a fixed proportion of their "new" price on the XBLM. It required any sellers to have permission first and completely prevented selling directly to another person like on an ads website. In addition, you couldn't give the game to anyone. If you gave it to a friend, they would have to pay the activation cost. By the way, do you consider books to have DRM built-in because you have to be holding it in your hand to use it? Because that's what current gen DRM is.
Retr0gamer wrote: » The only way the disk based method is more restrictive is if I wasn't Richie Rich and wanted my 5 PS4's on at the same time playing the same game. How dare MS and Sony deny my right to say **** you to the oil reserve and ozone layer. ****ing peasants should be paying me to take their console. My daddy owns their asses!
Grumpypants wrote: » Or say if you live here then had to travel abroad for work. Then you can just bring your console with you without the stack of twenty odd games you want to play while your away. Just as one example.
FlyingIrishMan wrote: » What's stopping you from doing this with the PS4 or even the PS3? Just download it the game and play it offline whenever you want. The fact is, at E3 Sony gave players the choice of going digital with all content available day one, and even the ability to play games whilst they downloaded. However they also didn't try and revoke their right to play physical discs, and do what they like with those discs. MS tried to force a system upon players that people aren't ready for yet. For the average consumer, the system set in place on the PS4 and PS3 is far far better, easier, and user friendlier than MS's original policies.
Grumpypants wrote: » As mentioned earlier I can't download that much data in a timely manner, Crysis 3 took a week and that was on PC. Until I get a fiber connection (fingers crossed that is soon) installing disks is the only real option. That and I don't fancy paying €69.99 for a digital game on the PS3 that is €45 on disk.
Grumpypants wrote: » But if you wanted to use the disks in your console there was nothing stopping you. You could put in your disk play it until you got sick of it and then traded it in. I could install the disk and put it away, and still played from the hard drive we both are happy. A book isn't digital so doesn't require any digital management of the content, unless you mean for a kindle. In which case the DRM is linked to your amazon account.
C14N wrote: » Honestly, I get that the old X1 plan would work better for you as someone who isn't particularly interested in second hand games, likes putting all their games on an HDD and doesn't have fast broadband but you do need to realise that your situation puts you in a small niche and that far more gamers like having the DRM work on a basis of license-tied-to-disc and not license-tied-to-account.
Grumpypants wrote: » The PS4 uses a disk based drm system which is pretty robust and restrictive. 1 disk, 1 player on 1 console. The Xbox had a more relaxed system of 1 player, all your games at any time on any console. But the internet felt this was anti consumer and forced them to change it. This is because most people don't understand what drm is how it works and why it is needed. They seem to attach being online to some kind of drm.
sarumite wrote: » Interestingly I travelled abroad for work recently and for 2 weeks I did'nt have internet access while outside of the work environment. The original design required that I have internet access. That said, at most I would have brought one or two games. I think the stack of 20 is a little unrealistic.
_Puma_ wrote: » Let me ask you this, if you only used Digitally distributed content, like Steams On-line store, would you be happy if they brought in a system similar to the defunct Microsoft system. Even if they allowed free transfers of the games to another account(Of course Microsoft were going to have a nominal fee)?
Grumpypants wrote: » Looks like the Xbox is now set for 5th November Launch. Or maybe even a bit before.http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/xbox-one/games/call-of-duty-ghosts
Grumpypants wrote: » That is a loaded question, because you move the goal posts. In a purely digital world there is no need for a 24 hour check in so it would be totally unnecessary. But to answer it anyway. Would I like if Steam introduced a used games market and let me gift my finished PC games to a friend? Yes I think I would enjoy that. I think it would add some "pro consumer" features to the PC market. At the moment once a game is on my Steam account it is there forever. I can't trade it in or I can't lend it to a friend, it is kind of a dead game in a manner of speaking. It could work like this. You could log into your Steam account and go online. Transfer the licence to your friend, because you are online Steam can quickly delete the licence from your account and connect it to your friends account. It would take a few seconds. I think you would be hard pushed to find people against a option like that. In a purely digital world there is no need for a 24 hour check because you need to go online to transfer the licence in the first place. You would not be able to move digital licences when you are not connected to the internet. But lets just play this out for the sake of answering your question even though it is a different scenario than the proposed MS one.Would I mind if I got all the features above and the only inconvenience was that when I went to log into Steam while typing in my password it checked the licences were working so by the time I typed in my password and logged in everything worked? Yea I think I would like that too. Lets take it a step further and compare it to the MS system (because that's fair). If this check in gave me the benefits above and then also allowed me to trade in my PC disk games at a store then I would also think this was an improvement. I would be getting a lot of benefits, "pro consumer features" and extra control over my games and licences for something I will most likely never even know is happening. I would buy a disk game, activate the code once (first layer of DRM) when I log in it checks again (second layer of DRM just so you don't wrongly accuse me again of ignoring the layers of DRM) and I play the game without any interruptions over the current system. That would be great. (You are glossing over the fact that this DRM check-in has to be done consistently, whereas on something like steam there is the option to play ofline and there is only one-time DRM on activating the license) If it happened that my internet was down for over 24 hours and by some stroke of terrible luck my mobile network was also down for over 24 hours even though that has never happened to me once in the last 15 years and I was restricted to just playing my digital games that I purchased directly from steam and had to wait a few days to play the disk game I would be a little bit put out but not to any great degree. (Remember if the 24 hour check in failed you could still play your digital games on your Xbox) Let me ask you a question in return. How would a company let you install a disk to a hard drive and let you trade that disk to a total stranger and ensure that digital licence transferred correctly to them without any issue, without having both parties go online?
COYVB wrote: » that's the cod multi format launch date, wouldn't necessarily read too much into that particular link TBH. Not saying it's not accurate, just that that particular bit of information is lazy web page design and not anything more important
