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Were 'The Troubles' worth it in the end?

lazygal

I was watching Reeling in the Years this evening. The year was 1982 and there were a few features on The Troubles. IRA bombs in London, allegations of RUC shoot to kill policies and an INLA bombing. Which got me thinking, was it worth it in the end? All those deaths and injuries, and the stress of living under threat of bombs and shootings, all the resources used in terms of security personnel, all the chaos and lost opportunities. What did The Troubles (I can't think of a better phrase to use) really achieve in the end? After all that death and mayhem, was it worth it to get where we are now? Surely there was a better way, and things could have been different.

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Red Nissan

Morag wrote: »

Given that the troubles started with Catholics daring to stand up for their rights and and discrimination polices were put in place there are those who would say achieving those goals was worth marching for.

Religion has no right. End.

But by implication you seem to be Catholic, how do you think you'd have been received in an Islamic Country?

OCorcrainn

Red Nissan wrote: »

Religion has no right. End.

But by implication you seem to be Catholic, how do you think you'd have been received in an Islamic Country?

What kind of a moronic assumption and comparison is that?

Red Nissan

Dr. Bre wrote: »

the troubles - sounds like a row in the pub between a few lads

A few lads with MP36's and Semtex ~ nice row that becomes. Beats kicking the head off a teenager in Sober Lane by a long mile.

Crooked Jack

LordSutch wrote: »

There was no need for 3000 people to die on this island to achieve what would & could have been acheived (SDLP) in more civilised and non devisive way.

Getting late, good night all.

Absolute, utter tripe. The British Government gave their answer to the Civil Rights movement on the streets of Derry in 1972. That's what they thought of peaceful protest.
If Irish history has proven anything it's that the brits will listen to nothing other than violence.

Crooked Jack

Red Nissan wrote: »

Three high ranking IRA or whatever active organization members shot and killed my British Special Branch, effectively an open execution, effectively ended the IRA.

Is this a pisstake?

Red Nissan

OCorcrainn wrote: »

What kind of a moronic assumption and comparison is that?

Actually the exact same. Just because we both Catholic and Protestant congregations treat women as equals, does not mean that Islamic countries would. As example.

Hannibal

judging by the rest of his comments I think you're right

Red Nissan

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Is this a pisstake?

Yes, absolutely, it never happened, I've made it up but forgot the context, maybe Google could step in here, thanks.

Banjo String

Red Nissan wrote: »

Yes, absolutely, it never happened, I've made it up but forgot the context, maybe Google could step in here, thanks.

This is great. Just sit back and enjoy the ride Sam.

Morag

Red Pepper wrote: »

The end did not justify the means. Murdering innocent people was very wrong. Reeling in the years is a stark reminder on how evil it all was. Many paramilitaries only in it for the cash.

I never said I condoned killing anyone up north ever for any reason.

Red Nissan

OCorcrainn wrote: »

wtf?

Yes, concepts may or may not be different, in the North of Ireland, religion was based on the same principles, Love, Honour and Obey, no killing of non believers.

In contrast a Muslim must convert or put to sword any infidel, ie any Catholic or Protestant.

Neither Catholicism [as a religion] or Henry's Church has such articles of engagement.

Islamic nation may behead women, as clearly seen during the Golf War and invasion of Iraq.

OCorcrainn

Red Nissan wrote: »

Yes, concepts may or may not be different, in the North of Ireland, religion was based on the same principles, Love, Honour and Obey, no killing of non believers.

In contrast a Muslim must convert or put to sword any infidel, ie any Catholic or Protestant.

Neither Catholicism [as a religion] or Henry's Church has such articles of engagement.

Islamic nation may behead women, as clearly seen during the Golf War and invasion of Iraq.

Christianity used to burn people at the stake for being 'heretics' and women for being 'witches'.

Red Nissan

SamHall wrote: »

This is great. Just sit back and enjoy the ride Sam.

History is.

History is written by the victors ~ obviously.

History must be questioned. News reports are still online, Blair [Tony] smudged history to cause another war.

Red Nissan

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Christianity used to burn people at the stake for being 'heretics' and women for being 'witches'.

Spanish Inquisition and a few who escaped to Salem. Not authorized by the Papacy and excommunicated.

IE, we don't do it today. We have not done it in 500 years.

Yellow121

I smell something.

Yellow121

Wacky tobacky I think.

portcrap

Having grown up in the north, privileged to have lived in a 50/50 area with friends from both sides of the spectrum and and born into a non-religious, non-prejudiced family, I was lucky to have a pretty unbiased insight and neutral perspective into the 'troubles'. there is absolutely no doubt that there were horrendous atrocities committed by all sides in the conflict. Also there were legitimate grievances on both sides.

The fact my father had to place protestant as my religion on my birth cert in the late 70's so as not to impede my chances of a good education and career, speaks volumes as to the discrimination catholics had to endure. However in all honesty, and in my opinion, the campaign of violence, predominantly led by the IRA, only strengthened the resolve of loyalism, unionism and British Government attitudes toward the north, as witnessed by Thatchers stance during the 80's.

I do not believe for one second that the IRA's violent actions hastened devolution or assisted in gaining equal rights for catholics, nor do I believe it furthered the cause of republicanism. The loyalist paramilitaries were no better, however, they were able to hide somewhat behind the actions of the IRA, claiming "tit for tat" violence as justification for their atrocities while gaining assistance from the british agencies within the north. John Hume and the SDLP, Alliance party and UUP would have secured devolution much quicker in my opinion, had it not been against the backdrop of violence. I don't know if the republican cause would have been furthered any more than where it is today.

All I know is, it is so good to be able to go home and cross the border or walk the streets without having to pass by heavily armed soldiers, put up with sporadic bomb scares, pass by IRA / UDA ad hoc 'security checkpoints' or see local business people having to pay protection money. May we never see those days again.

Red Nissan

portcrap wrote: »

as witnessed by Thatchers stance during the 80's. .

Sadly it seems no one except you and I were even born then, given the responses in this thread.

I loved your report, but it is IMO wasted. Thanks.

For Paws

Eh, the reference to Malta was probably in error.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flavius

Banjo String

Crooked Jack

Red Nissan wrote: »

Yes, absolutely, it never happened, I've made it up but forgot the context, maybe Google could step in here, thanks.

Are you referring to the assassinations of Danny McCann, Seán Savage and Mairéad Farrell in Gibraltar?
That happened in 1988. The IRA went on to fight for the best part of another decade.
How did you come to the conclusion that the assassination of three IRA volunteers almost 10 years before the end of the conflict brought about the end of the IRA?

Stained Class

Podgerz wrote: »

While of course not "worth" any lives being lost; the following was achieved for Catholics in the North due to their existence. Not only S

-Irish passports for those in the North who want them
-First All Ireland vote/consensus since 1918
-Elimination of sectarian RUC
-Civil (Housing, job, ) Rights for Catholics
-A semiautonomous government body comprising both Catholics and Protestants
-A North/South Ministerial Council is to be established to develop co-operation between the 2 states and assist each other on issues of common interest,
-Public bodies must demonstrate cross-community and other equal opportunities.
-A Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission was established to protect minorities in Northern Ireland and to ensure that business is conducted without discrimination.
-The British government signed the Council of Europe Charter for Regional or Minority Languages and help to preserve the Irish language for those who wish to use it.

Among Other things. no it wasnt "worth" loss of life, but the above would not hav ebeen achieved had it not occured.

Are you sure of that? Maybe there there was another way.

Red Nissan

For Paws wrote: »

Eh, the reference to Malta was probably in error. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flavius

In error in fact but not in concept, many thanks.

Red Nissan

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Are you referring to the assassinations of Danny McCann, Seán Savage and Mairéad Farrell in Gibraltar?
That happened in 1988. The IRA went on to fight for the best part of another decade.

Yes, I am. Despite the IRA being "very active" today 1st August 2013, Gibraltar ended the movement and produced no new activity, not counting the Omah bombing which culminates in your timeframe.

Crooked Jack

Red Nissan wrote: »

Yes, I am. Despite the IRA being "very active" today 1st August 2013, Gibraltar ended the movement and produced no new activity, not counting the Omah bombing which culminates in your timeframe.

Oh my god. i cant tell if youre a total moron or a very talented piss taker. either way it's too late for this. Oiche mhaith. what time is it on your planet by the way?

Red Nissan

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Oiche mhaith. what time is it on your planet by the way?

Oscar Mike Charlie 4 Tango Tango Tango

[-0-]

Worth what, exactly? The IRA was pretty much a non entity in the 60s. They had gotten rid of most of their weapons and wanted to go the political route at this time. The civil rights issue in 1969 forced them to take up arms again and protect the Catholic families who were being murdered and forcefully removed from their homes. If this had not have happened, they would have went into politics a lot sooner. The troubles were not started by the IRA, and I very much doubt the unionists believe creating the troubles were worth it. Unfortunately the IRA had to take up arms and protect the Catholics, given that the police were also taking part in killing them. You'll find that if you go back to 1913, you'll see that the unionists were the first paramilitary group on the scene in opposition to Home Rule. The IRA didn't form until a couple of years after this.

Red Nissan

[-0-] wrote: »

1913, you'll see that the unionists were the first paramilitary group on the scene in opposition to Home Rule. The IRA didn't form until a couple of years after this.

Indeed hard to know where they started as they had "FIANNA Fail" and "Fine Gael" roots already but 1922 seems to be the official adoption date.

A bit off the 1970's topic though, we could go back to the Act Of Union, but the question was , what?

markomuscle

Red Nissan wrote: »

I live in Cork and we got invaded with Northern Ireland "Refugees" they took our jobs, women and houses and they are still here.

They have done us the courtesy of adopting our language and customs though.

I did not invite any of them, but neither kicked any of them out.

And don't forget, like the only real Taoiseach, Jack Lynch allowed a one Charles Haughey to invade the North the night before the British Paras arrived, then had a hissey fit and a loss of memory as he recalled the troops.

Not that we had the gumption, but some of us did have the balls,

Relocation has been going on in Ireland for centuries, how else would people in NI have surnames like O'Brien and O'Donnell in the south

Retrovertigo

hfallada wrote: »

When even Carrie Bradshaw is making references to it in sex and the city, you know it's bull****

Did this post actually happen or am i asleep?