Dostoevsky wrote: » Sweet suffering Jesus. As somebody currently outside Ireland in a non-English-speaking country (these barbarians do exist, old chap!) I can assure you that it is a first rate delusion of the untravelled English mind that thinks "the whole world uses English". Not even half, not even quarter. Wearing a t-shirt declaring "I love bj" (cringe), as I saw today, does not qualify one as a speaker of English. Not even a majority of people in either Europe or the EU, where the most widely spoken first language is... German, not English. Nobody who has travelled could subscribe to this nonsense. I have travelled hugely and this "English is the world language" delusion f*cked me over massively in my first trips. People only have to see the shocking English "translations" around them, if they exist at all, to drop down to earth. And that's just within the EU. Today, I saw about 20 "white" people, even when I was seeking them out. And the ones I found spoke to me in broken English (they were German, or at least German speakers). The delusions of English monoglots about the extent of competent English speakers beyond the Anglo world is entertaining in its ignorance.
NeVeR wrote: » I can speak Irish fluently, I did all my schooling through Irish. While i like the fact that I can speak my own languages, If I could turn back the clock and had a choice I would never do it again. Reason: I did all my subjects in Irish, Woodwork / Art/ Tech graph etc. and since I did it in Irish I learned all the terms in Irish.. and speaking to anyone that done it in English they have no clue what I'm trying to explain etc. Learning them all in Irish was such a disadvantage as the whole world uses English.
NeVeR wrote: » Why can't you post images !!! This is you <-- click
Ficheall wrote: » Incidentally, this one estimates that we spend 20 billion on social welfare :Phttp://www.irishcentral.com/news/A-third-of-Irelands-expenditure-goes-toward-social-welfare-payment-126083018.html
Ficheall wrote: » I'm curious as to how you see this panning out.. You're thinking of a musical festival headlined by U2 and the Dubliners, is it?
Ficheall wrote: » I had lunch trí Ghaeilge yesterday with a friend who teaches Irish in Belgium. We passed a group of schoolkids nattering away as Gaeilge as we were walking through town. Irish may be on the way out, but it will certainly outlive all of us.
Ficheall wrote: » And it's about 13bn a year on education in general, no? It's not just Irish that one isn't getting one's money's worth in, to be fair. Probably all due to poor teaching and examination standards though. Incidentally, this one estimates that we spend 20 billion on social welfare :Phttp://www.irishcentral.com/news/A-third-of-Irelands-expenditure-goes-toward-social-welfare-payment-126083018.html
Grayson wrote: » But if dublin kept building more spires, we'd think they were stupid and wasteing money. I love wandering around the museums of Dublin. But when you consider how much is spent on them compared to how much is spent on Irish, it's a bit silly. Every document is translated into Irish here. Every school teaches it. There's a subsidised TV channel for it. I'm pretty certain that museums only get a fraction of money that's given to Irish. This article estimates, although I'll admit it provides no sources, that we spend 1bn on teaching irish a year.http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-language--throwing-good-money-after-bad-225250.html It's a kinda believable figure. Whatever the actual figure is, it's going to be massive. There are better ways to spend that money rather than propping up a project that's failed. the government has spent decades trying to make this country speak irish and it's failed. It's probably a better use of money to stop funding irish to the same extend and focus on other cultural activities. Could you imagine the epic festivals that we'd have throughout the country if we spent 100 mil on it? Music, art, literature etc would be thriving. And it would be Irish culture, even if it's not Irish language. We need to stop compulsory Irish after the junior cert, if not after primary. We need to focus on conversational Irish for the first few years. And we need to stop shoving pointless poems and stories down the throats of students. It took the dept of education years to realise that Peig did more harm than good, mainly because the irish cultural nazis thought it was an important part of our history and culture. Doing all that would cut expenditure and focus on the main areas if fluency that need addressing. If we can't do that then there's no point. the Irish lanugage now has enough speakers who speak it on a daily basis outside of the education system that it was technically a dead language. I say was because the EU changed their definition of what a dead language was after the Irish government lobbied them. And it was due to government lobbying that the language status was changed from treaty status to official status. Dead or alive, the Irish language is on it's last legs. The discussion about whether or not it's living is similar to a discussion about whether or not a person on life support is. The irish language is on a billion euro's of life support at the moment. And that billion euro's is hardly making a dent. So either we change what we're doing, or give up and pull the plug. Because I'm sure everyone can think of a better use for that money.
Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: » You seem to miss the point I was making to Iwasfrozen; which is a government should support cultrual and artisitc endeveaours. As to how and how much, that's nto really essential to what I was saying.
BognarRegis wrote: » If the 'how' includes forcing people to learn Irish, surely that's a too much? After 80 years, and many curriculum changes, I think it's clear that the teaching methods are not the problem.
Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: » Absolutely. As I said, 1 billion of the Irish language budget on education is a waste.
An Coilean wrote: » You think 1bn euro is spent on teaching Irish? 'It is estimated' Ya, by the author who was too lazy to do any research. The reform movement, a southern unionist grouping that want to see Ireland rejoin the Commonwealth did a piece on the cost of the Irish language at the height of the Celtic tiger back in 2006 and even they did not come up with a figure of 1bn being spent on Irish in the education system. Just because it is written on paper does not mean its true.
An Coilean wrote: » The reform movement, a southern unionist grouping that want to see Ireland rejoin the Commonwealth did a piece on the cost of the Irish language at the height of the Celtic tiger back in 2006 and even they did not come up with a figure of 1bn being spent on Irish in the education system.
Slutmonkey57b wrote: » So the situation is Post 1 You deny any knowledge of the process, or that it is even applied to phrases in the Irish language. Post 2 You state not only knowledge of the process, but expertise. It can't be both. Which is it? If the first post is true, then according to you transliteration does not take place in modern Irish, with another apparently more expert (than you) poster who also supports the use of Irish stating that it does, making your statement incorrect simply on the basis of personal ignorance. This also means that post 2 is a lie, or that you somehow became an expert in the timespan between the two posts (which stretches the definition of expert I think you'll find). If the second post is true, then it means you were lying in post 1. The only logical explanation for this is that you didn't like the assertion, and attempted to dismiss it, unsuccessfully as it happens. Which is it?
And yet you haven't managed to rebut a single point, in any of the languages you claim to speak. All you've done is attempt to brag about your supposedly superior intelligence, to no good purpose.
I claim the language died and has been kept in a zombie condition by a combination of politics, force feeding, egregious lawmaking, and massive financial support.
LordSutch wrote: » Surely the elephant in the room is Welsh? Population three million, with a devolved parliament within the United Kingdom and yet the Welsh language flourishes, whilst here in Ireland the Irish languish has bumped along at the bottom of the pond since independence from the UK!
Iwasfrozen wrote: » Why would you assume a unionist group would come up with an inflated figure? You wouldn't be holding pre conceived prejudices against unionists would you?
An Coilean wrote: » Perhaps the Irish language movement should try to emulate the Welsh language movement, ie mass protests, civil disobediance, vandalism of public and private property, destruction of monolingual signage, wrecking the offices of politicians who fail to toe the line, hunger strikes and breaking the law to attract media attention to ongoing campaigns. The Welsh Language movement have done all of that and more, many members have served multiple Jail terms and regard their time in prison as a badge of honor, perhaps the Irish language movement needs to become more militant, it seems to be working for Welsh.
Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: » Can you elaboarte on the above? All I can find is 50th anniversary celebrations. The other pracrical thing to bear in mind is: ware the Welsh language protestors in the majority; what are their airms; did they have to contend with a largely apathetic population?
An Coilean wrote: » One part of which is to increase the amount spent on Welsh x4 to bring Wales in line with spending on the Basque Language in the Basque country which has seen a substantial revival of their language over the last 20-30 years.
An Coilean wrote: » Its called the 'Welsh Language Society' have a look at its history and/or news reports of their activities. Were they in the majority? At their own protests, probably, does their society represent the majority of Welsh people? No. Their general aim is ‘Dwi eisiau byw yn Gymraeg’ (I want to live in Welsh) If your interested you can read their Manifesto One part of which is to increase the amount spent on Welsh x4 to bring Wales in line with spending on the Basque Language in the Basque country which has seen a substantial revival of their language over the last 20-30 years. As for contending with an 'apathetic population' Some are active supporters, more are disinterested, most are generally in favour but take no part and some are activly opposed, much the same as for Irish really.
BognarRegis wrote: » How does spending on Irish compare to Welsh and Basque?
From the manifersto: It’s apparent that outward migration - such as young people leaving their communities to look for work - is one of the main factors leading to the linguistic emergency.
The message of Tynged yr Iaith II was that years of campaigning have ensured that the Welsh language will survive. The question, by now, is what kind of future will it face? A language for the classroom, dry documentation, a language for signage - or - as our nation and our communities’ own language?
Establish a Welsh Medium Labour Market – work is needed urgently to monitor the need for a Welsh medium workforce in sectors and locations across Wales as well as planning to meet the demand for a workforce with Welsh language skills, including an ambitious Welsh in the workplace training scheme. This should start with the major employers where the provision is most needed, such as the health service, social services and further and higher education
No-one should be placed under such a disadvantage in the modern Wales, and we call for a timetable to be drawn up to ensure that everyone attains the skill of fluency in Welsh.
We believe that the Welsh language is an essential educational skill for everyone who wishes to live and work in Wales.
...and that no pupil should be deprived of the opportunity to learn this special skill that is also one of the nation’s treasures.
We call for an immediate move to a system where every pupil will receive a portion of their education through the medium of Welsh, so they have the opportunity to work through the medium of Welsh. In addition, opportunities should be secured for pupils to explore their personal linguistic identity in addition to their experience of the world and the community around them.
An Coilean wrote: » No Idea. Both Welsh and the Basque Language are far more prolific in both the education sphere and the public service in those countries than is the case for Irish in Ireland.
An Coilean wrote: » If this means more money is spent on these languages in their respective countries than is spent on Irish in Ireland, I don't know as I don't have the figures, but I think it is quite probable.
Aineoil wrote: » Debate about the Irish language on this forum is good and in fairness you all have made many valid points. Some love the language a lot hate it. There have been a lot of questions on the teaching of Irish. No language is easy to learn. You have to engage to learn a language and work hard at it too. People have different styles of learning also. Language is a means to be understood and to communicate. Most people in Ireland today have no need of Irish. But for me it's about nostalgia, keeping a dying language alive and my OH is a native speaker. For him it's a living language when he goes home. I don't believe the language should be forced on any child. It just encourages a hatred for the language. It's nice for a child up to second class, most get great fun out of the classes. After that it's down hill for the majority of children. Most hate it! Having said that, children who find maths or English difficult, are not eager to engage in those subjects either. I don't have any answers to the "Irish language" question but because you hated Peig is strange. I just wonder if the OP is from the daltaí boards?
BognarRegis wrote: » Are all Spanish children forced to learn Basque? Is there a law requiring all public signage in all parts of Spain to be in Basque?
But, since you don't know, so the amount per head could actually be much less. This is important as money might not be the solution to your problem. There could be other reasons.
Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: » Whatever about domestic, Irish speakers travelling aborad seem to be better at taking the langauge with them.
Moving on to employment: Their emploment manifsto is a bit discriminatory. If a certain skill is not an essential tool to do the job, it should not be an issue. If a candiate is clearly better, why should he be passed over because he does not speak Welsh? Futhermore, from the language section, there is this hypocritical gem: But they just said they want non-welsh speakers to be placed at a disadvantage...!!
The second problem, is that it only really targets people who can alread sepak Welsh. it's not goign to attract new speakers.
Education: It's not essential for the same reasons Irish is not essential here. Nothing is going to change that. They go on to say: Which is fine. Every child should have the opportunity. But: ...this is far from givig them "an opportunity". This is forcing your will on someoen else, specifcially a child. If a child has the right and opporunity to learn something, they msut also have the right to not avail of this opportunity without backlash.
