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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

Daysha

2009 - 2011 thread here

This is our year

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Mr Tibbs

Although we lost I'm glad I traveled down to Walsh Park. It was a fabolous evening. It could have been in Spain. Got a great laugh when it was announced over the tannoy attendance 2,200. You could add another 1,000 to that figure and with no tickets somebody went home rich tonight. To be honest I went down in the belief that we could get a win here, we have some very nice player's to come from this team maybe with better management we might do better next year.

Waternut

How did Bourke play? Candidate for the future full back position?

seananigans

I think,as a county we need to stop talking about next year,we have so much going on about ,now is the timeframe we need to be looking at .

As for the seniors ,they deserve respect for such a valiant fight against our neighbours behind the north wall.

I dunno im conflicted , 2-3 years ago i accepted we were in transition ,but i think the excuses need to be put away after this year

Deise_2012

Waternut wrote: »

How did Bourke play? Candidate for the future full back position?

Played well, was well protected by kieran power in the sweeper role also but looks like a super talent. I still prefer seeing him in the half back line though, reminds me of darragh fives similiar type player. Will be brought onto the senior panel in the next year or 2, maybe a year for the intermediates wouldn't do any harm

shoddy14

The lack of threat in the full forward line is becoming akin to the full back position of the 00's which prevented us from going any further. It has been disheartening to see kilkenny/Clare full back lines mopping up ball after ball with ease in the last week, However the performance of the minor full forward line to date offers hope as they seem to always win their fair share of possession and have cause trouble to all the teams they have played. Until we find scoring forwards we won't be able to consistenly compete with the big guns

Deise_2012

shoddy14 wrote: »

The lack of threat in the full forward line is becoming akin to the full back position of the 00's which prevented us from going any further. It has been disheartening to see kilkenny/Clare full back lines mopping up ball after ball with ease in the last week, However the performance of the minor full forward line to date offers hope as they seem to always win their fair share of possession and have cause trouble to all the teams they have played. Until we find scoring forwards we won't be able to consistenly compete with the big guns

calm down, it was our most inexperienced forward line with god knows how many years! both management and players will learn from this season, there's a lot of players to make the return next season too, don't be writing them off yet

Horseboxhead

we were not set up to get goals to night, we started with a two man full forward line, and then we went to one, we had at one stage 4 players out around the middle, but unfortunatly the space it was supposed to create, was covered by clare just adapting better to what we were trying to do , waterford selectors overthought this tonight, sending off was vital, but you have to have a structure players understand, and clearly in the second half our half forward line disappeared,our midfield and half backs had no outlet other than Eamonn murphys selfless running which he was rewarded for by being taken off, just could not fathom it.
On a side note what about Limericks statements that waterford were showboating on sunday, on the sideline and on the field, seems to have got them riled up, as if they need it, limerick are always physical anyway, plus heard a strange romour, our backs were told to push up last sunday when we were 8 points up, to close the game down, and look what happened, if true, we are lucky we are producing players as our managemant is gone to the dogs.

noiniho

The reason the full forward line didnt win a ball is because we played a two man full forward line for nearly all of the game (it is hard to see the positioning telly so I dont know if we reverted to this after Clares 3 early points or if we did it fromt he start), even when we had the slight breeze in the first half, frustratingly we still lumped a few balls into our out numbered full forward line. with this system you are bascially relying on a free taker for scores and to come through in a low scoring game, kinda like Clare themselves used to do some years ago with Seanie McMahon scoring from all distances and angles and a reliable freetaker up front. One thing you are not going to do is get goals. This system for a whole game brings serious pressure on your backs, as the ball is coming back as soon as its cleared and the best hope you have is if the third midfielder/ sweeper you bring back creates havoc int he middle of the field and the oppositon have to wirhdraw a player back there themselves to deal with him, which didnt happen
Amazingly, on a few occasions, the Clare Full back line actually ran into trouble after picking up ball unopposed and even after short puck outs and we got a few scores from this. Dillon kept up his end of the baragin and even from open play he takes his strikes so early and is so accurate he must be a nightmare to mark, cant take your eyes off him second, no messing he just takes the strike and invariably it is between the posts. Breatnach also did his bit to keep us in it with his strength in the air, driving forward and picking off a few points.
The second half was more of th same until the sending off, it was desrved, I know a sending off is always going to be a factor but I thought that it mightnt actually make much difference to us as instead of having two man full forward line who couldnt win a ball it would be a one man full forward line who wouldnt win a ball. one thing you are not going to get with this system is goals and when Clare got theres we were goosed.
The lads battled bravely until the end, as they did all through, I thinl it is a pity we went with a withdrawn corner forward, espeically int he first half, the backs did well all through even with fourteen men, even when inviting some pressure on themselves, I think they could have held there own man to man with the Clare forwards, who lets face it were mis-firing to a large degree last night. in the first half I would have like to see Breathnach in full forward with two pacy corner forwards in there with them.
Inthe end we needed goals, without a full forward line you aint going to get them... Shame really, the better team won int he end put they were there for the taking last night and that game was anyones. if we went for it more in the first half we coul have had a serious rattle of them

Royal Legend

Tactically, I thought we were poor tonight. You could also argue about the placing of the team as the selectors seemed to be more worried as to Clare's strengths than playing to ours. Considering Ray Barry playing at half back after scoring 1-3 against Kilkenny? Why were the last two frees knocked over the bar? They both occurred in the last couple of minutes, 5/6 points down, you could see Jake asking the bench whether to put it over or drop it in, did Queally think it was a 70 minute game? The last couple of minutes petered out as if we were resigned to losing.
Clare IMO were the better team overall, but they got two soft goals to win it as well.

carter10

I wouldn't mind any statements by Limerick, great men to talk when they're winning, remember Richie Bennis at it in 07.

robopaddy

I think we are over analysing things, the sending off was what absolutely killed us, after that we played with effectively 4 forwards as we were playing a 2 man full forward line anyway. 4 into 6 dosent go. As soon as the foul occurred I was praying for a few seconds 'please let it be Donie Breathnach' because he also wears a yellow helmet and I knew PP was on a yellow card and it was hard to say from where we were which one it was

Up until then youd have to say things were going well. We were winning, our backs were well on top and while we were depending heavily on Jake Dillon for scores we were still outscoring them. I thought when Tony Kelly went off early (hope hes ok) and we went in at half time with our tails up that this could well be our night as Clare werent going great and as some one else alluded to seemed to show signs of fear after Kelly went off. I think the sending off gave them the belief back and from then on there was only going to be one winner. Lets not forget we were still ahead with less than 15 mins left on the clock but it was inevitable the extra man was going to take take its toll especially in that punishing heat.

blaming management seems to be our answer to everything down here in Waterford the usual slaying going on here. I think Peter Queally has a fantastic job done with these lads we had the all Ireland champions on the back foot for 40 to 45 mins and after the awful hammering we took last year off the same opposition you have to say there has been progress

Royal Legend

robopaddy wrote: »

I think we are over analysing things, the sending off was what absolutely killed us, after that we played with effectively 4 forwards as we were playing a 2 man full forward line anyway. 4 into 6 dosent go. As soon as the foul occurred I was praying for a few seconds 'please let it be Donie Breathnach' because he also wears a yellow helmet and I knew PP was on a yellow card and it was hard to say from where we were which one it was

Up until then youd have to say things were going well. We were winning, our backs were well on top and while we were depending heavily on Jake Dillon for scores we were still outscoring them. I thought when Tony Kelly went off early (hope hes ok) and we went in at half time with our tails up that this could well be our night as Clare werent going great and as some one else alluded to seemed to show signs of fear after Kelly went off. I think the sending off gave them the belief back and from then on there was only going to be one winner. Lets not forget we were still ahead with less than 15 mins left on the clock but it was inevitable the extra man was going to take take its toll especially in that punishing heat.

blaming management seems to be our answer to everything down here in Waterford the usual slaying going on here. I think Peter Queally has a fantastic job done with these lads we had the all Ireland champions on the back foot for 40 to 45 mins and after the awful hammering we took last year off the same opposition you have to say there has been progress

first of all, I don't make a habit of blaming management, Secondly Clare we AI U21 Champions "last year". Different teams this year, it is not comparing like with like. Thirdly, I cannot understand either giving teams too much respect or playing one of our on form scoring forwards as a half back and finally, why did the management team give the nod for Jake to go for a point, 2 mins left on the clock and 5 points down. I am seriously questioning did the management make a mistake as regards the time left? Even Paudie knocked over a free in the last minute or so, it was as if we had given up? I think they are fair points to make and questions to ask.

fricatus

Royal Legend wrote: »

Why were the last two frees knocked over the bar? They both occurred in the last couple of minutes, 5/6 points down, you could see Jake asking the bench whether to put it over or drop it in, did Queally think it was a 70 minute game?

Royal Legend wrote: »

and finally, why did the management team give the nod for Jake to go for a point, 2 mins left on the clock and 5 points down.

Jake* was right in front of me and I clearly saw him asking those questions all right... I was wondering about it myself, and the only thing I can think is that the management wanted to get within three points and then hopefully get lucky with a scrambled goal. There were still about 4 minutes plus stoppage time to go IIRC.

In fairness, if he'd gone for goal three times and failed, we'd be berating the team for passing up three sure points.

* He's some hurler all the same, isn't he?

noiniho

robopaddy wrote: »

I think we are over analysing things, the sending off was what absolutely killed us, after that we played with effectively 4 forwards as we were playing a 2 man full forward line anyway. 4 into 6 dosent go. As soon as the foul occurred I was praying for a few seconds 'please let it be Donie Breathnach' because he also wears a yellow helmet and I knew PP was on a yellow card and it was hard to say from where we were which one it was

Up until then youd have to say things were going well. We were winning, our backs were well on top and while we were depending heavily on Jake Dillon for scores we were still outscoring them. I thought when Tony Kelly went off early (hope hes ok) and we went in at half time with our tails up that this could well be our night as Clare werent going great and as some one else alluded to seemed to show signs of fear after Kelly went off. I think the sending off gave them the belief back and from then on there was only going to be one winner. Lets not forget we were still ahead with less than 15 mins left on the clock but it was inevitable the extra man was going to take take its toll especially in that punishing heat.

blaming management seems to be our answer to everything down here in Waterford the usual slaying going on here. I think Peter Queally has a fantastic job done with these lads we had the all Ireland champions on the back foot for 40 to 45 mins and after the awful hammering we took last year off the same opposition you have to say there has been progress

I thought Clare were the better team and deserving winners, management of every team are not above criticism, Waterford went in to that game last night afraid of their lives of Clare which was totally evident by the way we set up. it is like the management were saying from the start of the game 'there is no way the hammering that happened last year is happening on my watch' as the game played out if the approach was to go out and win the game, espeically in the first half, I think the game was there for the taking.

Basically we were too negative because of fear on the line, we showed them too much respect with our tactics. Watching the game I think our backs and midfield were strong enough to hold their own in an orthodox line up... this was an oppurtunity missed. We were outscoring them even with containment tactics, which is unusual because it normally turns out that the team with the witdrawn forward will be happy to be with in three points of the opposition until the final stages, we managed to be ahead i would say in spite of the tactics not because of them.

robopaddy

Royal Legend wrote: »

first of all, I don't make a habit of blaming management, Secondly Clare we AI U21 Champions "last year". Different teams this year, it is not comparing like with like. Thirdly, I cannot understand either giving teams too much respect or playing one of our on form scoring forwards as a half back and finally, why did the management team give the nod for Jake to go for a point, 2 mins left on the clock and 5 points down. I am seriously questioning did the management make a mistake as regards the time left? Even Paudie knocked over a free in the last minute or so, it was as if we had given up? I think they are fair points to make and questions to ask.

I would have said dont panic take the points aswell. there was still a few minutes left to play. If we kept knocking over the points and got within a goal in the last minute then we could throw off the shackles and just go for a goal. But there was no point in keep dropping that ball in around the square as it was just going to come straight back out.

I have no doubt in my mind that Peter Queally realised it was 60 minute game and not 70 minute. He wasnt just some fellah picked up on the side of the road below at Carroll's Cross before the match

Royal Legend

robopaddy wrote: »

I would have said dont panic take the points aswell. there was still a few minutes left to play. If we kept knocking over the points and got within a goal in the last minute then we could throw off the shackles and just go for a goal. But there was no point in keep dropping that ball in around the square as it was just going to come straight back out.

I have no doubt in my mind that Peter Queally realised it was 60 minute game and not 70 minute. He wasnt just some fellah picked up on the side of the road below at Carroll's Cross before the match

It was in the 59th minute with no notion of how long was going to be played as injury time, 5 points down? surely you go for goal?
As regards tactics, we set ourselves up not to lose as we were fearful of them. This is the second time in a week that I think we lost a match we could have won, if management had made the right decisions. In saying that, everyone makes mistakes and hindsight is great. Hopefully, management of both teams is abject enough to learn not to repeat these errors. IMO Kilkenny won last Saturday because they knew how to and we did not.

Hidalgo

Royal Legend wrote: »

It was in the 59th minute with no notion of how long was going to be played as injury time, 5 points down? surely you go for goal?
As regards tactics, we set ourselves up not to lose as we were fearful of them. This is the second time in a week that I think we lost a match we could have won, if management had made the right decisions. In saying that, everyone makes mistakes and hindsight is great. Hopefully, management of both teams is abject enough to learn not to repeat these errors. IMO Kilkenny won last Saturday because they knew how to and we did not.

That's not just management, that's years of doing it. Time and time again they've been under the cosh and came out the right side. Doing so breeds self confidence amongst players as they draw on past experiences to get over the line

garv123

For the last point jake tapped over from the free I was sitting in the stand between him and management..
jake kept looking back and shouting and not once did anyone answer him or even gesture anything to him and he turned around and hit it over when he got no answer.

The last free, jake didnt take it because he was heading into the edge of the square and the free taker ended up over hitting it by the looks of things.

Also people blaming tactics.. Are ye forgetting we were 3 points up before the sending off? That sounds like tactics were working well enough for us. When we lost the sweeper was when things went tits up.. Waterford were still in control till the sending off

robopaddy

Royal Legend wrote: »

IMO Kilkenny won last Saturday because they knew how to and we did not.

Or because they had scoring forwards we didnt. It was a midfielder Kevin Moran who single handedly clawed us back to level par in the dying moments with 2 outrageous points from midfield. we had no right to bring that game to extra time really considering how little change our forwards were getting and the wides we had

Mr Tibbs

Paudi Penders first yellow was hard to believe as there were about six players in a scuffle on the sideline that Clare seemed to disagree with. Row over Paudi was singled out but still got the sideline decision how strange was that. Surely if a foul had been that serious to warrant a yellow card you'd think the ref would have decided on a throw ball. I was a bit away from the scuffle but I saw plenty of hurley's being used as weapons. As was said by Mountainlad Eamon Murphy through on goal when he recieved a full frontal challenge not too disimilar to what Paudi committed and not even a warning in that case.

Royal Legend

the standard of refereeing in general is poor. The guy last week in the wex/kilk game was clueless as well, nobody knew what he was going to pull or not pull for. bring back Mickey Wadding, all is forgiven

noiniho

garv123 wrote: »

For the last point jake tapped over from the free I was sitting in the stand between him and management..
jake kept looking back and shouting and not once did anyone answer him or even gesture anything to him and he turned around and hit it over when he got no answer.

The last free, jake didnt take it because he was heading into the edge of the square and the free taker ended up over hitting it by the looks of things.

Also people blaming tactics.. Are ye forgetting we were 3 points up before the sending off? That sounds like tactics were working well enough for us. When we lost the sweeper was when things went tits up.. Waterford were still in control till the sending off

I hate playing with a third midfielder or a seventh defender in hurling, to me the only reason to do it is;

Against the wind
- Damage limitation, against a stronger team who are getting a run on you.

From the start of the game regardless of conditions
- Against a vastly superior team that you afraid you are going to get absolutely hockeyed by.

The gane last night in my opinion didnt warrent those tactics, considering the talent we had at our disposal, we worried too much about them and not ourselves.
Being three points up after 45 mins didnt justify the tactics either

We were playing at home, with the wind for the first 30 minutes, we should have went at them for all we were worth and been six points up at half time... instead we drew everyone back and drew them on us, it was the act of a manger that didnt have confidence in his team

Royal Legend

noiniho wrote: »

I hate playing with a third midfielder or a seventh defender in hurling, to me the only reason to do it is;

Against the wind
- Damage limitation, against a stronger team who are getting a run on you.

From the start of the game regardless of conditions
- Against a vastly superior team that you afraid you are going to get absolutely hockeyed by.

The gane last night in my opinion didnt warrent those tactics, considering the talent we had at our disposal, we worried too much about them and not ourselves.
Being three points up after 45 mins didnt justify the tactics either

We were playing at home, with the wind for the first 30 minutes, we should have went at them for all we were worth and been six points up at half time... instead we drew everyone back and drew them on us, it was the act of a manger that didnt have confidence in his team

Thank you, my point exactly. We have the talent to beat most teams, why do we act as if we are inferior? They were AI u21 champions last year, different teams were playing last night. the big threat was Kelly and he went off injured.
Anyway, that's another season gone.

premierstone

Royal Legend wrote: »

first of all, I don't make a habit of blaming management, Secondly Clare we AI U21 Champions "last year". Different teams this year, it is not comparing like with like.

They had 9 of last years team still available together with members of the 2010 AI Minor runners up (should really have won) so this Clare team is just as strong as last years.

Royal Legend

premierstone wrote: »

They had 9 of last years team still available together with members of the 2010 AI Minor runners up (should really have won) so this Clare team is just as strong as last years.

And the Waterford panel was just as strong, even though Paudie Mahony was not 100% and Gavin O'Brien is still out. The bulk of this squad competed from u14 upwards as does the follow on for the next two years. Aim for the sky and you might hit the ceiling, aim for the ceiling....

Deise_2012

At the end of the day we were in a winning position before paudie got sent off, kieran power was cleaning up in the sweeper role so they were playing straight into our hands, ye can talk about tactics all ye want but after the sending off we were completely over run at midfield and the half forward line...because power had moved from his sweeper role.

It's about winning a game in the end and we were on our way in doing that

Royal Legend

Deise_2012 wrote: »

At the end of the day we were in a winning position before paudie got sent off, kieran power was cleaning up in the sweeper role so they were playing straight into our hands, ye can talk about tactics all ye want but after the sending off we were completely over run at midfield and the half forward line...because power had moved from his sweeper role.

It's about winning a game in the end and we were on our way in doing that

But we didn't...

Management have to allow for all eventualities, Paudie was already on a yellow, I don't accept that just because we were down to 14 that it meant we could not win, you change formation, you don't just give up and what I saw from the stand last night was either giving up, having no plan B or just clueless.
I will leave it at that, it is just frustrating that within 5 days, three of our county teams have failed to put away teams that were there for the taking, considering that two of them were reigning AI champions

hardybuck

It's one thing to setup with a good game plan that works, but you've got to be adaptable and react to situations very quickly. The latter of the two seperates good managers from average managers, in my opinion.

I've played on many teams where managers just couldn't process information quickly enough on the sideline. Within 5 minutes a game can turn and be won or lost. I think this, particularly around the sending off, along with some errors on the field - i.e. the poor effort from the keeper for the goal, really cost Waterford.

It should also be pointed out that Waterford only introduced three subs despite it being a sweltering evening, and playing with 14 men. Clare used their full bench, and this would definitely have helped them to finish the game strongly.

Hidalgo

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

Paudi Penders first yellow was hard to believe as there were about six players in a scuffle on the sideline that Clare seemed to disagree with. Row over Paudi was singled out but still got the sideline decision how strange was that. Surely if a foul had been that serious to warrant a yellow card you'd think the ref would have decided on a throw ball. I was a bit away from the scuffle but I saw plenty of hurley's being used as weapons. As was said by Mountainlad Eamon Murphy through on goal when he recieved a full frontal challenge not too disimilar to what Paudi committed and not even a warning in that case.

Even if 5 other players had been booked, Prendegrast would still have gone. His 2nd wasn't the fact that it was shoulder to chest, he used the hurley to stop Galvins run, and to neck region.

At what stage in the game did Eamon Murphy get fouled again? If the game is on TG4 player I must have another look at it.

Surprised he was taken off actually, he was showing for the ball consistently in an outnumbered forward line.

premierstone

Royal Legend wrote: »

And the Waterford panel was just as strong, even though Paudie Mahony was not 100% and Gavin O'Brien is still out. The bulk of this squad competed from u14 upwards as does the follow on for the next two years. Aim for the sky and you might hit the ceiling, aim for the ceiling....

As strong as what? The one that Clare beat by 19 points?

As a neutral it was fairly obvious to me that man for man Clare had a stronger team, so Waterford needed to change things and they did and tbh it was working very well and they were frustrating Clare very well, the sending off and the timing of the goal changed all that.