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Anglo Tapes

Scofflaw

For anyone who has missed these so far: http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/inside-anglo-the-secret-recordings-29366837.html

TAPE RECORDINGS from inside doomed Anglo Irish Bank reveal for the first time how the bank's top executives lied to the Government about the true extent of losses at the institution.

The astonishing tapes show senior manager John Bowe, who had been involved in negotiations with the Central Bank, laughing and joking as he tells another senior manager, Peter Fitzgerald, how Anglo was luring the State into giving it billions of euro.

Mr Fitzgerald had not been involved in the negotiations with the Central Bank and has confirmed he was unaware of any strategy or intention to mislead the authorities. Mr Bowe, in a statement last night, categorically denied that he had misled the Central Bank.

Obviously, the Indo is taking a libel risk here, but the tapes are fairly damning. Undoubtedly they show that Anglo led the Central Bank into supporting them by suggesting a smaller sum than they knew they needed, with the expectation that once it had committed to that level of support, the CBI would have no choice but to continue support in order to save the money they had already put in, whereas if they saw the full amount up front, the CBI might decide the cost to the taxpayer was too high - and when I say they "show that", I mean that's explicitly stated in the recorded conversation:

“The strategy here is you pull them in, you get them to write a big cheque and they have to keep - they have to support their money,” says Mr Bowe, in the recorded phonecall, of dealings with the authorities. “If it doesn’t look too big at the outset - if it looks big, big enough to be important, but not too big that it kind of spoils everything, then, then I think you have a chance.”

cordially,
Scofflaw

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hadit2here

Actually I was thinking that the Gov should re run the referendum....

however, now after watching Vincent Browne last night, it would seem that the truth will come out in the courts, (maybe more efficient that any enquiry)

The Max Keiser report (on RT news channel) had Paul Sommerville on it a while back... back then he suggested the tapes, for example were leaked by "friends of Quinn" in order to show the public , a clearer picture of what actually was going on in the country.

The letters last night are another step in the right direction....

Both the Vincent Browne show and that Max Keiser Report were interesting(Keiser is more funny/entertaining)

emo72

Media blackout on this?

[Jackass]

Well what do you suggest?

They're setting up an inquirey, but since everyone voted not to give these any power at all, it's just another waist of time to talk about nothing and find nothing as hands are tied behind the back. That's the wise electorates fault.

And there's an impending police investigation. Presumably due to the complexity and sheer volume of evidence, the police are taking an age to bring forward criminal proceedings, but they can't (at this point anyway) even assure charges will be pressed against people like Drumm, hence the reason he's safe in the USA, and there's absolutely nothing a Government can do about that.

At least they're not setting up a tribunal, again of no power or consequence, to run over the next 17 years at the cost of billions to tell us there was fraud and "bad practice" and then to make recommendations that seem obvious in the first place and cost the state a few hundred million in the process.

All they can do (and have failed to do) is properly legislate, with sweeping reform of white collar crime legislation, but that's it. A Government can't chase an individual.

hadit2here

nc6000 wrote: »

I think it is remarkable when you look at some of the issues that this Government have tackled that they continue to claim that they can't do anything about what went on in Anglo and that it's with the Gardai etc.

i agree, but i think the reason is , that there people on the Dept Of Finance/Central bank who will come out looking worse that the Developers that the public have been blaming (again not that Developers are complete angels)

nc6000

I think it is remarkable when you look at some of the issues that this Government have tackled that they continue to claim that they can't do anything about what went on in Anglo and that it's with the Gardai etc.

hadit2here

Yes Vincent Browne show was very interesting. The released letter has not been discussed by mainstream media like RTE .... Seems to me like Dept Of Finance are up to their necks in it.... The Quinns have been taking the heat up until now.... the truth might actually come out

The letters were actually shown on the TV...

(I am NOT saying the Quinns are completlty innocent in all this)

emo72

Sand wrote: »

It appears Sean Quinn is taking a case against the Central Bank and the DoF though I'm only seeing reports on the BBC website.

Seems to be no reports on the Irish print media. Essentially they are accusing the Central Bank and the DoF of conspiring with Anglo Irish to illegally support the market price of Anglo Irish. Given the level of knowledge the CB, regulator and the DoF had about the troubles in Anglo Irish and the "Green Jersey" strategy being employed its not beyond the realms of possibility that Sean Quinn could win that case.

From discussions on Vincent Brown tonight it also appears the Quinns have released a letter whereby Anglo Irish deliberately and knowingly lied to the Minister at the time, insisting in writing that they did not lend for CFDs when they knew they were lending to Sean Quinn for just that purpose. Additionally members of the DoF also knew that Anglo Irish was lending for CFDs - this is puzzling as if you assume those civil servants were briefing the Minister honestly, then surely Brian Lenihan would have caught the lie. Assuming they were briefing the Minister honestly of course.

just watching this now. im surprised these letters made the light of day. the DOF names are out there now. in an age when nothing seems to shock me any more, i am truly shocked.

"Something very serious went on" said vincent. Also I cant believe how quiet this thread is?

Sand

It appears Sean Quinn is taking a case against the Central Bank and the DoF though I'm only seeing reports on the BBC website.

Sean Quinn's family are to take legal proceedings against the Irish Department of Finance and the Irish Central Bank.

The family is already involved in a £2.4bn euro (£2bn) case, against the former Anglo Irish Bank.

Initially the family had wanted both institutions joined to its action against Anglo.

The Quinns claim the Central Bank and Department of Finance were involved in a conspiracy with the bank.

On Thursday, Anglo's lawyers said they had no objections to separate legal action.

The Quinns claim the Central Bank and Department of Finance were aware that Anglo was lending money to cover the family's losses on share dealings in the bank.

The family claims the loans were part of a strategy to shore up Anglo's falling share price and should not be repaid.

After lawyers for Anglo said they had no objections to the Quinns taking the separate legal actions, the Quinn family said it was withdrawing its action to have the department of finance and the Central Bank added to its 2.4bn euros claim against the Anglo.

Mr Quinn, now bankrupt, was once Ireland's richest man.

An earlier court hearing had heard that between October 2005 and July 2007 Sean Quinn had built up a 28% stake in the former Anglo Irish Bank using contracts for difference, a financial instrument used to gamble on the bank share price.

When senior executives at the bank learnt of this "colossal interest" in September 2007, a system was set up whereby money was loaned to the Quinn group to support this gamble.

Share dealings
On Wednesday, lawyers for the Quinn family accused the Central Bank and the Irish department of finance of conspiring to get the former Anglo Irish Bank to commit an illegal act, then to commit that act, and thereby to engage in market abuse.

The Quinns claim that the financial regulator, who was based in the Central Bank, and the department of finance were aware that Anglo was secretly funding the family's ill-fated share dealings in the bank.

Lawyers for the family claim the regulators purpose was to protect Anglo's falling share price.

Three senior bank executives are due to go on trial next year charged in connection with the alleged market abuse.

The Quinn's full case against the bank will not be heard until the trial of former chairman Sean FitzPatrick and two other Anglo executives is completed.

Anglo Irish was the first Irish bank to seek a government bail out.

It ran into trouble after lending tens of billions of euros to property developers before the collapse of the property market.

A government rescue package eventually cost Irish taxpayers 30bn euros ($39.4bn; £25bn).

The bank was nationalised in 2009 and its affairs were taken over by the IBRC.

The banking crisis led to Ireland having to ask the International Monetary Fund and the European Union for a 85bn euro (£72.4bn) bail out in 2010.

At the height of his success, Sean Quinn was the 12th richest man in the UK and the richest in Ireland.

Seems to be no reports on the Irish print media. Essentially they are accusing the Central Bank and the DoF of conspiring with Anglo Irish to illegally support the market price of Anglo Irish. Given the level of knowledge the CB, regulator and the DoF had about the troubles in Anglo Irish and the "Green Jersey" strategy being employed its not beyond the realms of possibility that Sean Quinn could win that case.

From discussions on Vincent Brown tonight it also appears the Quinns have released a letter whereby Anglo Irish deliberately and knowingly lied to the Minister at the time, insisting in writing that they did not lend for CFDs when they knew they were lending to Sean Quinn for just that purpose. Additionally members of the DoF also knew that Anglo Irish was lending for CFDs - this is puzzling as if you assume those civil servants were briefing the Minister honestly, then surely Brian Lenihan would have caught the lie. Assuming they were briefing the Minister honestly of course.

Going Forward

I wonder if Anglo, the "risk taking" bank looked benevolently on the opposition party members of the time.

FF guys had the Ministerial jobs back then and could have gotten credit everywhere, the otothers might have been at the mercy of Anglo and the likes.

Might be one reason for the lack of enthusiasm for any bank inquiry.

Worztron

Found all tapes here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0NvtxgTt6I&list=PLfHB5-fia_haHx06yDTd1hl8FzyrZgNpY&index=1

Scortho

thebman wrote: »

Tapes today seem to suggest Anglo thought it should stop lending a year prior to bank guarantee so where was the regulator for that year where these things was obvious?

Where was the oversight?

People literally getting paid out of public purse to do nothing it seems.

This is a question that rarely pops up and is an important one.
We had a non existent regulator (blamed on the pds) who didn't seem to care about what the banks were up too.
He was content with collecting his wages every week for doing nothing.

People go on about how bad drumm and fingers were. At the end of the day they're bankers, and are going to do whatever they can to make the most money.
In reality people should be cursing mr neary and the people in his department paid to keep the bank in check but who were fast asleep.
Them and the auditors earnst and young are the ones who I lay most of the blame with.

thebman

Tapes today seem to suggest Anglo thought it should stop lending a year prior to bank guarantee so where was the regulator for that year where these things was obvious?

Where was the oversight?

People literally getting paid out of public purse to do nothing it seems.

Cody Pomeray

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sorry, let me just check - you're under the impression, or are claiming, that these tapes are not being portrayed as of interest in large part because they relate to the bank guarantee?

These tapes say next to nothing about the Bank Guarantee. I haven't made any claims to that effect. Neither did I say anything about what simplications others might draw. I'm simply suggesting they depict the executives in a bad light, and reveal their behaviour to be impropr.

So what was your reference to?

Maybe you should check these things before rushing to judgement, by asking...

warm, slightly hungry, might go for lunch,
Cody Pomeray

Scofflaw

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Who mentioned the Guarantee?

What are you on about?

astounded,
Cody Pomeray

Sorry, let me just check - you're under the impression, or are claiming, that these tapes are not being portrayed as of interest in large part because they relate to the bank guarantee?

That people's interest in these tapes is not, in fact, related to the bank guarantee decision?

That the Taoiseach - just to pick an example at random - has not suggested that there is a further inquiry into the bank guarantee decision on foot of these tapes?

Is there a reason you've decided to make this rather bold and original claim? On the basis, perhaps, that these tapes actually don't really tell us anything about the bank guarantee decision?

cordially,
Scofflaw

golfwallah

What really gets the average citizen is the length of time taken and apparent unwillingness to bring those responsible to account over the Anglo bailout, particularly when tapes published by the Indo are in the possession of the authorities.

Makes you wonder why all the delay. Also throws lots of suspicion onto an apparently self-serving political system, where the most important priority seems to be to keep those elected to run the country in jobs and perks for as long as possible.

At least the Central Bank has been undergoing radical change – but I still wonder if it’s enough. Maybe constant change at the top (e.g. departure of Matthew Elderfield) will help to prevent over-comfortable relationships being built between the top echelons in banks and the supervisory authority. Some evidence of change in the Central Bank is available in the public domain, on their website, in statements by Patrick Honohan, etc.

Their new PRISM system (link below) has been designed to provide “a unified and much more systematic risk-based framework – making it easier for our supervisors to challenge the financial firms they regulate, judge the risks therein and take action to mitigate those risks – securing meaningful change on behalf of consumers, citizens and the State”.

I wonder!!

http://www.centralbank.ie/publications/Documents/PRISM%20Explained.pdf

tayto lover

Gringo180 wrote: »

You honestly couldn't make it up, outrageous stuff!

Utter contempt for us low-lifes.

Gringo180

tayto lover wrote: »

Absolutely scandalous.
BUT the big-nob friends of the Govt would not be in the Credit Unions. They'd be in Anglo.

You honestly couldn't make it up, outrageous stuff!

tayto lover

Gringo180 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland/credit-unions-the-only-anglo-bondholders-the-government-has-faced-down-1.1456844?page=2

Sickening :rolleyes:

Absolutely scandalous.
BUT the big-nob friends of the Govt would not be in the Credit Unions. They'd be in Anglo.

Gringo180

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland/credit-unions-the-only-anglo-bondholders-the-government-has-faced-down-1.1456844?page=2

Sickening :rolleyes:

Cody Pomeray

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Eh...to continue this would be just arguing for the sake of arguing...

You said he had a neat story.

A neat story is not the equivalent to consistency. Consistency is merely an ongoing application of the substance of the narrative. What is the substance, i.e. what is 'neat' about what Drumm says?

Is it that he wasn't the only bad guy? Nobody doubts that.

perplexed,
cody pomeray

Dannyboy83

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

No, the neat story bit. What is the 'neat story'? Simply being consistent in saying "I'm not the only one" is meaningless, and it is on this meaningless nothingness that you seem to rely, establishing precisely nothing.

Eh...to continue this would be just arguing for the sake of arguing...

Maybe a few years ago I would have taken the bait Cody, these days I couldn't be arsed tbh.

nonchalantly,
dannyboy

Cody Pomeray

Scofflaw wrote: »

The footage doesn't so far suggest anything whatsoever about Anglo's role in the guarantee.

Who mentioned the Guarantee?

What are you on about?

astounded,
Cody Pomeray

Scofflaw

Cody Pomeray wrote:

We know of incompetence at Cabinet and at the level of the Central Bank through other channels. But what you are suggesting here, i.e. that the executives at Anglo were mere 'pawns' is absolutely not borne out in the footage.

Oh well, here we go again. The footage doesn't so far suggest anything whatsoever about Anglo's role in the guarantee. Thus far the footage suggests on the one hand that Anglo were looking for a loan to tide them over, and were prepared to reveal less than the full truth to get that loan - that's the pre-guarantee footage.The post-guarantee footage paints a picture of Anglo being happy to take advantage of the guarantee in ways that were embarrassing for Ireland.

With respect to Anglo's role in the guarantee decision, the tapes show absolutely nothing at all so far. Yet the tapes are being portrayed as being about Anglo's role in the guarantee decision.

cordially,
Scofflaw

golfwallah

I’ve very little sympathy for anyone who runs away when the going gets tough, particularly when they cast aspersions at others involved, to divert attention from themselves.
Other peoples’ roles in the Anglo affair are separate issues and, if called upon to answer questions on the matter, their response or otherwise can then be dealt with.
Right now, David Drumm is ignoring official requests for him to return home to answer questions about his part in the affair.
Let’s face it, David Drumm took all the rewards associated with running Anglo, while they appeared to be making profits (at least in the short run).
The tapes reveal some of his thinking when things started to unravel and just how far he and his associates were prepared to go to save themselves – no matter at what cost to the Irish Taxpayer.
Now he has run away to the USA, trying to save as much as possible of the gains he made in the good times at Anglo.
So he is in no position to portray himself as victim – he should man up and return to face the consequences of his actions as CEO of a major bank that failed so catastrophically.

Cody Pomeray

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I mean:
a) he does not appear to be changing his story, as a liar typically does - read back through his various interviews on IrishCentral or the various Irish media. He has been quite consistent.

No, the neat story bit. What is the 'neat story'? Simply being consistent in saying "I'm not the only one" is meaningless, and it is on this meaningless nothingness that you seem to rely, establishing precisely nothing.

Cody Pomeray

creedp wrote: »

the appropriate view that the bankers were simply pawns and the real culprits are the senior PS

John bowe: “So, so…[the €7 billion] is bridged until we can pay you back..which is never. [Loud laughter]”

John Bowe: "That number is seven but the reality is we need more than that. But you know, the strategy here is you pull them [the Central Bank] in, you get them to write a big cheque and they have to keep, they have to support their money, you know."
Peter Fitzgerald: "...They’ve got skin in the game and that’s the key"
John Bowe: "...If they saw the enormity of it up front, they might decide they have a choice. You know what I mean? They might say the cost to the taxpayer is too high…if it doesn’t look too big at the outset…if it doesn’t look big, big enough to be important, but not too big that it kind of spoils everything, then, then I think you can have a chance. So I think it can creep up"

Also on the tapes

- Donal O'Connor, the chairman of Anglo (as he was then) is portrayed as being of a negative disposition towards the IL&P warehousing deal, he is worried about the Government's reaction, the thinks the Government are going to 'throw their hands up' if they find out.
-The Regulator asked Fiachra O'Neill, head of compliance at Anglo (as he was then) for his legal opinion on whether there was market abuse in their transactions. John Bowe says he is "nervous" about an upcoming due diligence procedure, and what to say to the Regulator about the IL&P deal.

And on due diligence, here's Drumm indicating what he wants to "get through to" the Minister for Finance"

Drumm: Really what I want to know is what's this about process and due diligence and all this. You're putting the Government guarantee at risk with your delays [Bowe: Yeah] ...and your lack of action. And what's this about having to go through due diligence? You made that decision on the 29th of September... Now can you protect your hundred billion guarantee of usby writing a two or three billion cheque and get on with it... So my goal tomorrow is to get that through to him. 'Do you understand?'
... When you've guaranteed someone's entire liabilities, it's smart to write a very small cheque to stop them being called. [Bowe: Yeah... Yeah] Which bit of that don't you get? [Bowe: Yeah]. I don't think he gets it
Bowe: Well the problem is he's trying to be 'mean' in the way he's, let's say, 'dispensing Government largesse'.

Elsewhere

Bowe: We never had a day like today where one and a half million went out
Drumm: Now, when you say buffer, you're talking about the liquidity ratios are you? [Bowe: I am, yeah] ...Yeah, I don't care about them. I just care about the fcuking cash... The regulatory minimums are not in themselves a disaster for the bank unless somebody finds out about them.
Bowe: ...Now you are having to tell the Regulator what lending you are doing... you are going to have the regulator sitting in your corner office.
Drumm: Yeah I get that. Don't run ahead of yourself yet...
...We've been doing a lot of work. We've been working on it today. About maybe having the conversation with our buddies down on Dame Street about fallback, you know, if we do breach this. First of all, I don't want any fcuking bolloxology from them.

In the later conversation, Drumm refers to a "shower of clowns" down on Dame Street, as his bank struggles to maintain cash reserves. In fact, the whole tenor of the recordings, taken as a whole, is of an executive branch of the bank which is completely frustrated with the slow pace of state intervention.

We know of incompetence at Cabinet and at the level of the Central Bank through other channels. But what you are suggesting here, i.e. that the executives at Anglo were mere 'pawns' is absolutely not borne out in the footage.

Dannyboy83

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

What do you mean a neat story?

I mean:
a) he does not appear to be changing his story, as a liar typically does - read back through his various interviews on IrishCentral or the various Irish media. He has been quite consistent.

b) he has been quite forthcoming with information, unlike the former Taoiseach and civil service, who seem to be incapable of recalling the actual truth and/or terrified of incriminating themselves.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

The only narrative that I can see coming out of David Drumm's fledgling media interactions (I say this because I think we all expect a book, eventually) is the theme: "There are others too".

That's a bit understated though, his actual quote is:

He said: “I am being made a scapegoat by politicians and politically connected former bankers and politically protected senior pubic servants.

“These people do not want to see their role in the crisis highlighted. A campaign of misinformation about the bank guarantee has been going on for several years and it has to stop if the public are to finally understand what happened.”

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/David-Drumm-says-he-will-not-be-made-a-scapegoat-for-the-Irish-banking-crisis-214519121.html#ixzz2YdDDtHkA

^
I don't think it can get any clearer than that.

Sorry, but nobody ever doubted that there are others. Just raise the name Brian Cowen or Brian Lenihan or Patrick Neary over on AH and see what reaction you get. The fact of others sharing blame doesn't diminish the merit of any criticisms of Drumm in the tapes, as being reported.

I know, thats why I wrote: "That's not to suggest he is innocent of wrong doing, ..."

His other criticism is of the 'drip drip drip' reporting. Well it has to be done in serial form. There is too much data and releasing it all simultaneously would not be constructive and any newspaper doing so would fail in its role of assisting public debate and deliberation.

Up to a point - yes. And obviously the media wouldn't be doing themselves any favours.
But the headline yesterday was about some knacker from Love/Hate harassing some nobody from nowhere.

The momentum is starting to diminish already.
The fact is that David Drumm is correct. The public limelight has been taken off the other participants.

Noreen1

There is absolutely no reason for a politician to be afraid of practically any dealings in this Country - because, based on past history, they have little or no reason to be. Ditto for senior civil servants, or high profile bankers/developers.

Unless there is a concerted effort by the public, I very much suspect that the same will be true for any wrongdoers in the banking crises.

We'll get one or two token convictions - and the rest will melt quietly away.

As much as I hope I'm wrong in this, I have a strong suspicion that we'll be fed another toothless enquiry - one where witnesses are apparently free to tell lies without repercussion (a la certain cases currently before the courts!), or we wont get all of the information - because nobody conducting the enquiry will ask for all the information, because they don't know it exists - and it will, of course, have been turned over to the Garda Síochana!

But, we've all got implicit faith in our "Dear Leaders" - because investigations to date inspire so much confidence - or not, imo!

[Deleted User]

creedp wrote: »

There's a long and fruitful relationship in this country between politicians and banks .. think of the likes of the great Garret and Charlie. There is no reason to assume that such a relationship was any different in 2008 and has changed since then. This relationship has been ably abetted by senior PS and regulators who after all must serve their political masters no matter what the outcome. Its high time the citizenry of this country sought to make the process of recruiting/appointing such people independent of the political establishment.

You would almost think that a politician would be afraid to death of being in any way associated with dodgy bank dealings in 2012. I guess not...

creedp

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I was simply adding some anecdotal evidence to your own points. Think along these lines: 2012 > public representative > banks > favours

There's a long and fruitful relationship in this country between politicians and banks .. think of the likes of the great Garret and Charlie. There is no reason to assume that such a relationship was any different in 2008 and has changed since then. This relationship has been ably abetted by senior PS and regulators who after all must serve their political masters no matter what the outcome. Its high time the citizenry of this country sought to make the process of recruiting/appointing such people independent of the political establishment.