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Why is it frowned upon to question the holocaust?

woodoo

Surely any subject should be free to be researched, questioned, queried etc. Perhaps it would copper-fasten the current understanding of the holocaust beyond doubt. Or perhaps it may shed new light on exactly what happened. How many were really killed etc. Why be afraid of the truth.

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woodoo

Clandestine wrote: »

You can go to prison for questioning the holocaust in several countries.
The fact that a person can go to prison for expressing an opinion is disturbing to say the least.

Germany is one of thiose places. And that is just the place that could really look into it. Not many people are denying that the holocaust/mass murder if jews took place. The question is how many and why and by what design?

Eramen

smcgiff wrote: »

And the potato famine didn't happen either.

I see what you're getting at, but it's not really the point. Why should any event of history or time-period be exempt from logical and academic review?

The answer is politics and ideology - this is why the Jewish holocaust isn't allowed to be researched or commented on further.

It has a religious aura about it today which most Westerners seem to buy into on the surface at least. This has led it to be treated as if it were the trademark standard for 'evil', the event which has earned an 'emotional monopoly' over all other bad things that have happened to all peoples of the world.

People at this point have been conditioned by movies, books, and tv to be overly-emotional when confronting the holocaust, this is the only reason it can't be reviewed or historical facts updated. People aren't using their brains on the subject and they obviously need to overcome their fears.

Remember that all peoples have had a 'holocuast' and terrible genocides committed against them at one time or another - and those events are all reviewed routinely. But they don't have power politics and state-ideologies backing them and that's the only difference.

NuckingFacker

playadeldick wrote: »

I don't believe you. Are you claiming that the Jews run the world's media? Usual Nazi claptrap.

Well, my family lost their lands, businesses and lives in WW2 - my fathers father was a Jewish Mayor of a Bavarian town, so you can respectfully kiss my half-Yiddish ass. On the other side, I do recognise that as a people, self-promotion is a given. Also, I'm so Jewish it's comical. And no, I'm not too bothered what you think of that or wether you believe me.:)

Ciaran_B

Eramen wrote: »

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

― Voltaire

Cheers Voltaire, I'll keep it in mind :cool:

Voltaire didn't say that.

Seachmall

Clandestine wrote: »

You can go to prison for questioning the holocaust in several countries.

woodoo wrote: »

Germany is one of thiose places.

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

In Germany especially.

It's worth mentioning that academic research into the holocaust is not illegal.

The spreading of propaganda under the guise of academia is.

Clandestine

Ciaran_B wrote: »

Voltaire didn't say that.

Doesn't make it any less true regardless.

playadeldick

Eramen wrote: »

....this is why the Jewish holocaust isn't allowed to be researched or commented on further.

Lies. I've already stated that it's the most researched and documented event in history. Who is stopping you researching it?

People at this point have been conditioned by movies, books, and tv to be overly-emotional when confronting the holocaust, this is the only reason it can't be reviewed. People aren't using their brains on the subject and they obviously need to overcome their fears.

Typical Neo-Nazi drivel. Speak for yourself, I do use my brain.

Links234

NuckingFacker wrote: »

[/B]
Well, my family lost their lands, businesses and lives in WW2 - my fathers father was a Jewish Mayor of a Bavarian town, so you can respectfully kiss my half-Yiddish ass. On the other side, I do recognise that as a people, self-promotion is a given. Also, I'm so Jewish it's comical. And no, I'm not too bothered what you think of that or wether you believe me.:)

Nobody who's Jewish could ever be an anti-semite!

not saying you are or aren't, just pointing out that just 'cos your Jewish doesn't mean you can't be..

Clandestine

playadeldick wrote: »

Typical Neo-Nazi drivel. Speak for yourself, I do use my brain.

So you lower to name calling when you cant refute him properly?

playadeldick

NuckingFacker wrote: »

[/B]
Well, my family lost their lands, businesses and lives in WW2 - my fathers father was a Jewish Mayor of a Bavarian town, so you can respectfully kiss my half-Yiddish ass. On the other side, I do recognise that as a people, self-promotion is a given. Also, I'm so Jewish it's comical. And no, I'm not too bothered what you think of that or wether you believe me.:)

Judaism is passed down via the maternal line. I thought a Jew would know this?

Eramen

playadeldick wrote: »

Lies. I've already stated that it's the most researched and documented event in history. Who is stopping you researching it?

Typical Neo-Nazi drivel. Speak for yourself, I do use my brain.

You've proven my point, discussion on the holocuast begins and you've already started the name-calling and mud-slinging. Nice.

playadeldick

Eramen wrote: »

You've proven my point, discussion on the holocuast begins and you've already started the name-calling and mud-slinging. Nice.

Do point out where I called you names, if you'd be so kind. I'd hate to hurt your feelings. Really, I would.

woodoo

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Ohh, it did, but you don't hear about it every feckin day. I guess the wrong sort of people died in that one - not as media friendly.. If paddies ran the media, the famine would be reknowned.

True, and how many people are aware of the death toll in china between 1958 and 1961?

NuckingFacker

playadeldick wrote: »

Lies. I've already stated that it's the most researched and documented event in history. Who is stopping you researching it?

Typical Neo-Nazi drivel. Speak for yourself, I do use my brain.

Well, here's a reeealll shitter. My old man was a "Nazi", mainly because they were about to shoot him as a Jew otherwise. I.E, he was a turncoat on his own people, really, but then who knows what we'd do if given the choice? He had his "great conversion" about five minutes after they shot all his friends and family and because he happened to be a baker who was baking the bread for the generals and screamed that if it burned, there would be hell to pay from their bosses. True story, probably doesn't need more dragons.

Literally, save by the ovens from the ovens. As his son, I'm about as anti-nazi as they come, seeing as how I saw the dreadful affects their actions had on him. But much like up the North, at some stage, you have to move on, forgive and forget.

woodoo

Clandestine wrote: »

You guys should watch this:

So Auschwitz itself in 1990 has revised the number of Jews killed there from 4.1 million down to 960,000. Thats pretty shocking.

NuckingFacker

playadeldick wrote: »

Judaism is passed down via the maternal line. I thought a Jew would know this?

Like I said, half. My father was a jew, my mother a catholic. I have a jewish name. My children have jewish names. My wife is catholic and Irish. My children are catholic, I'm non-denominational, at best. You are well named, Dick. Also, I hope that troll reference wasn't aimed at me. I'm no troll, old son.

playadeldick

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Well, here's a reeealll shitter. My old man was a "Nazi", mainly because they were about to shoot him as a Jew otherwise. I.E, he was a turncoat on his own people, really, but then who knows what we'd do if given the choice? He had his "great conversion" about five minutes after they shot all his friends and family and because he happened to be a baker who was baking the bread for the generals and screamed that if it burned, there would be hell to pay from their bosses. True story, probably doesn't need more dragons.

Literally, save by the ovens from the ovens. As his son, I'm about as anti-nazi as they come, seeing as how I saw the dreadful affects their actions had on him. But much like up the North, at some stage, you have to move on, forgive and forget.

I'll be generous and give that a 1/10.
I thought you said it was your "father's father" (ie. your grandfather) that had trouble with the Nazis in Germany during WWII?

NuckingFacker

playadeldick wrote: »

I'll be generous and give that a 1/10.
I thought you said it was your "father's father" (ie. your grandfather) that had trouble with the Nazis in Germany during WWII?

I tend to give it as it is, I only have one rule for me on the internet, and that is "never lie". I never lie, and I never lie IRL either. I feckin hate liars. My mum used to say a liar was worse than a thief as a thief only stole sometimes, a liar always lied. I don't lie, so take what I've written any way you like. I'm bowing out, I'll let the "experts" take over. In over 12,000 posts, on boards, as my old name and this one, I've never lied, just so's you know, Dick.

Mark Tapley

Ciaran_B wrote: »

Voltaire didn't say that.

He did say speaking of the Jews- "You have surpassed all nations in impertinent fables, in bad conduct and in barbarism. You deserve to be punished, for this is your destiny."

kowloon

Clandestine wrote: »

You can go to prison for questioning the holocaust in several countries.
The fact that a person can go to prison for expressing an opinion is disturbing to say the least.

I agree with you on this point. I think laws prohibiting Holocaust denial and Nazi symbols have contributed to the problem. Anyone should be allowed to question something, let them have their say.
I can make almost anything tomorrow and if it's ludicrous enough I'll be called on it, but ban me from saying it and there will be a few who will question why I needed to be stopped from saying it.
There are neo-Nazis that will point to the fact that the authorities are trying to 'suppress the truth'. A bunch of conspiracy nuts have been turned into a persecuted minority. What doesn't happen out in the open with free speech will only become more dangerous behind closed doors.

I'm a bit of a broken record on this topic, but it keeps coming up.

Stellaluna

It has a religious aura about it today which most Westerners seem to buy into on the surface at least. This has led it to be treated as if it were the trademark standard for 'evil', the event which has earned an 'emotional monopoly' over all other bad things that have happened to all peoples of the world.

This is hardly surprising as it is the closest to us in terms of time/geographical proximity and culture. We want to know if/how our family history might have been part of the holocaust. There also seems to be vast quantities of photographs, video footage, written records (Nazis were apparently fastidious record keepers), first hand interviews and accounts by both survivors and perpetrators to tell the story and put together facts.

Does it matter if we won't truly know how many were killed and by what means? Thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions... What order of magnitude makes it a holocaust for you? Shot, stabbed, gassed... Does it make any difference?

Too many people died, Nazism is not a good ideology, don't let it happen again (in our back yard).

JRant

I don't think any right minded person would question whether the holocost occurred or not. Sure some details may be foggy or the number of deaths may be off but there was a war raging at the time so I can't imagine a CSI type investigation was carried put at the time. There is plenty of evidence though to prove that it did happen.

In some ways we are still living with the aftermath of it today. The extermination of the Jewish in Europe led to the founding of Isreal and how many people from both sides of that conflict have lost their lives?

Seachmall

JRant wrote: »

the number of deaths may be off

That is the issue though. Holocaust deniers don't typically deny that the holocaust happened, they argue that the number of Jewish deaths are exaggerated.

endacl

woodoo wrote: »

Surely any subject should be free to be researched, questioned, queried etc. Perhaps it would copper-fasten the current understanding of the holocaust beyond doubt. Or perhaps it may shed new light on exactly what happened. How many were really killed etc. Why be afraid of the truth.

Not afraid of the truth in the slightest. Run along now and research away like a good little OP. Good man. Let us know what you turn up.

endacl

NuckingFacker wrote: »

In over 12,000 posts, on boards, as my old name and this one, I've never lied, just so's you know, Dick.

Unless...... this one is a lie....??
How could we tell?!?

Ravelleman

Eramen wrote: »

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

― Voltaire

Cheers Voltaire, I'll keep it in mind :cool:

Funny that Voltaire´s attitude towards the Jews is such a topic of debate.

kowloon

Seachmall wrote: »

That is the issue though. Holocaust deniers don't typically deny that the holocaust happened, they argue that the number of Jewish deaths are exaggerated.

Which brings me to another issue that gets on my tits: there's always a focus on Jewish deaths. It was a crime against humanity, against people. There were lots of reasons for ending up a victim. By focusing on a subset of victims, even if it was a large subset, is to take away from the crime.
Gypsy losses are a prime example of a group even more difficult to calculate . I doubt anyone would get too angry at gypsy deaths being revised up or down by a significant proportion.

BTW, that was in no way a go at you, Seachmall.

Seachmall

kowloon wrote: »

Which brings me to another issue that gets on my tits: there's always a focus on Jewish deaths. It was a crime against humanity, against people. There were lots of reasons for ending up a victim. By focusing on a subset of victims, even if it was a large subset, is to take away from the crime.
Gypsy losses are a prime example of a group even more difficult to calculate . I doubt anyone would get too angry at gypsy deaths being revised up or down by a significant proportion.

I think the reason the Jewish deaths are focused on is because the Jews do tend to be more vocal than the other groups (can't remember the last time I heard a gay rights group refer to the holocaust or open a museum about the holocaust) and the anti-semitic/neo-nazi/general holocaust deniers tend to focus on the Jews as well.

My knowledge of the Nazis and Hitler is fairly limited but it's possible that they too were more vocal about the Jewish population than the other groups they detested.

BTW, that was in no way a go at you, Seachmall.

No worries.

General General

How can one really know that yesterday happened? Seriously.. how can one know that it is not a fake memory that one has? that actually the whole world as we know it was created in some way just earlier today, complete with people having (false, fake) memories of a previous existence..?

& if you dare to talk about this possibility, people react badly.

On a more serious note, I think it's obvious that there are grounds to question any version of any historic event, especially 'official' or 'widely believed' versions... however, a step further in analysis reveals that there are much more productive things to do than go on & on about any given 'version of events', as if it was the case that wider awareness of the questions surrounding **that** would lead to some breakthrough in thought.

Of course, one can become convinced that one is part of a vanguard challenging a taboo & get some sense of achievement from this... but I doubt that sense will satisfy or last.

Ravelleman

Eramen wrote: »

I see what you're getting at, but it's not really the point. Why should any event of history or time-period be exempt from logical and academic review?

The answer is politics and ideology - this is why the Jewish holocaust isn't allowed to be researched or commented on further.

It has a religious aura about it today which most Westerners seem to buy into on the surface at least. This has led it to be treated as if it were the trademark standard for 'evil', the event which has earned an 'emotional monopoly' over all other bad things that have happened to all peoples of the world.

People at this point have been conditioned by movies, books, and tv to be overly-emotional when confronting the holocaust, this is the only reason it can't be reviewed or historical facts updated. People aren't using their brains on the subject and they obviously need to overcome their fears.

Remember that all peoples have had a 'holocuast' and terrible genocides committed against them at one time or another - and those events are all reviewed routinely. But they don't have power politics and state-ideologies backing them and that's the only difference.

This is a very weak post and is representative of a non-critical reading of history.

Genocide has indeed occurred at other times in history but the sheer scale and rational-scientific manner (although based on pseudo-scientific assumptions) in which the Shoah was carried out against the Jews (and indeed Roma Gypsies, Slavic peoples, homosexuals and the disabled, among others) sets it apart from any kind of historical precedent.

The associations you make between the Shoah and some kind of religious aura are also indicative of a lack of knowledge on the subject. The Shoah was carried out primarly on an anti-semitic basis, not an anti-judaic basis. This means that prejudices based on race, not religion were the primary driving force behind it. The Nazis and the other people involved in the extermination of the victims (for not all were Nazis) carried it out based on the belief that the Jews were a distinct, non-Aryan race responsible for the decline of northern Europe´s racial stock. It wasn´t simply because they belonged to a different religion.

Likewise, when people speak of the Holocaust, they don´t maintain a sombre tone due to this ´religious aura´ you speak of but because of the fact that it represents the utter implosion of reason, so long a guiding force in society, and the scientific attempted extermination of an entire race of people.

You make it seem like a crime against Judaism and the Jews but it was a crime against all of humanity.