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UCD or RCSI?

WoolahUrma

Hi All,

I got 59 in my Gamsat so according to last years numbers I'll have enough for both UCD and RCSI.

I'm having a tough time deciding between the two. Does anybody have a thought on any point of differentiation other than the obvious stuff on the websites?

Either will be great if the points don't go way up.

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WoolahUrma

Has anyone been to one of the official ucd tours for those going for medicine? If so is it worth attending as opposed just poping in and looking around yourself?

Im booked in for the 20th but it means travel and a day off work so if its not super duper I might just tipp around myself.

nomoreexams

WoolahUrma wrote: »

Has anyone been to one of the official ucd tours for those going for medicine? If so is it worth attending as opposed just poping in and looking around yourself?

Im booked in for the 20th but it means travel and a day off work so if its not super duper I might just tipp around myself.

I went to one a few months ago. It's good if you have questions to ask current students and you get a Q&A with some of the lecturers.

Also you'd probably get to see more if you had someone showing you around and giving explainations of which classes happen where. But then it's probably not worth losing out a days pay for!

WoolahUrma

nomoreexams wrote: »

I went to one a few months ago. It's good if you have questions to ask current students and you get a Q&A with some of the lecturers.

Also you'd probably get to see more if you had someone showing you around and giving explainations of which classes happen where. But then it's probably not worth losing out a days pay for!

The impression im getting so far is that rcsi will look after you a little better but ucd have better facilities.

rcsi have smaller classes but vincents would suit me better in terms of commute.

rcsi seem to do more with the usmle in the way of supporting students but im not sure if I'll even end up sitting the test so its probably not the best point to make the decision on.

The other difference is the fee although if I think that there is a defo advantage to studying in surgeons it won't bother me too much.

Its probably irrelevant in reality but I wasn't exactly over the moon to hear that rcsi are hawking irish medical degrees over in bahrain without the correct amount of clinical experience.

nomoreexams

You sound like you're in the exact same position as me at the moment. It's a really tough decision. It may come down to a coin flip at this stage. If we could only mush the 2 colleges into one and make the perfect college.

I am worried about the 2,000 extra for RCSI and as fees increase and the loan fails to cover the increase, RCSI may put me under more pressure financially, but as you say if RCSI offers an advantage over ucd it would be money well spent.

iscr

There's always trouble in the RCSI- the admin have a lot of trouble controlling and micromanaging the students. Like today, our email service was withdrawn. Always seems to be a crisis. It's very easy to get yourself into trouble. Like they have these group projects and if one person does something "wrong" everyone gets a first strike. For a joke and to blow off steam someone replied to an email claiming they'd fooled the college and made up the entire project- they whole group got a first warning even though it was obvious who authored the email and that person owned up.They like to treat everyone as a criminal. They read your private emails so use gmail and not college email
I'd say UCD is your only man. RCSI might be something not to have on your cv in a few years time as the teaching is getting poorer and poorer as they try and save money on lectures and force student to student teaching instead. Their peds rotation is completely taught by your fellow students apart from one week of lectures that are badly coordinated.
Why not UCD? (Hint hint)

diverboy83

My tuppence to this thread: on the QS University rankings, whilst RCSI and UCD are in the same bracket, UCD Med School actually outranks RCSI.
Here are the links:

RCSI: http://www.topuniversities.com/node/4823/ranking-details/university-subject-rankings/2013

UCD: http://www.topuniversities.com/node/2318/ranking-details/university-subject-rankings/2013/medicine

WoolahUrma

I found this a couple of weeks ago, its the latest ranking which place ucc above ucd or rcsi. Trinity is consistantly first but after that from what I've seen they vary too much to take too much notice of.

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2013/medicine?loc=Ireland&=Apply&field_ranking_scores_888906=0.4&field_ranking_scores_888911=0.1&field_ranking_scores_888916=0.25&field_ranking_scores_888921=0.25&custom_ranking=&save_my_rankings_data_sort=2%2Casc%2C0&save_my_rankings_data_limit=50&save_my_rankings_data_search=&save_my_rankings_data_start=0

diverboy83

Another quick question: what's the situation regarding 3th and 4th year clinical placements etc? I seem to recall that during the RCSI open day, they mentioned that accommodation is sometimes covered by the University/Hospitals. Anyone know more about this?

nomoreexams

i've heard that too, hopefully a current student can confirm? Also do UCD have the same policy (edit: in terms of helping with travel expenses)?

iscr

nomoreexams wrote: »

i've heard that too, hopefully a current student can confirm? Also do UCD have the same policy (edit: in terms of helping with travel expenses)?

The RCSI put you up or pay you travel expenses if you just want to drive. They own a lot of property around the country such as "Ardkeen" appartments which is just a stone's throw away from waterford regional and you tend to get your own room with study facilities (desk etc).

If you want to learn medicine in RCSI pray they stick you as far away from Dublin/Beaumont as possible as the atmosphere is much more pro-learning in the peripheral hospitals

nsa75

During clinical years at RCSI students on peripheral hospital rotations were always offered the choice between paid accomodation or travel allowance. Accomodation provided is in the form of student apartments or B&B (breakfast sorted each morning which is a bonus and helps reduce living expenses for the week). The travel allowance is E100 per week and geared towards covering petrol or public transport costs for commuting to and from the hospital daily - this is obviously very possible for the likes of Drogheda but not so practical for Waterford/Kilkenny etc. Some students get lucky and end up on a peripheral rotation close to their family home and so often elect for the travel allowance option whilst moving home for the 4-6 weeks......this allows them to pocket the leftovers as travel costs are greatly reduced. Similarly, some will carpool and all claim the allowance thereby diluting out their travel costs and saving overall.

In addition to the above, students on peripheral clinical attachments can avail of internet USB sticks from the college library for a deposit of E15. Granted it's probably not a huge saving in the grand scheme of things but it's nice not to have to fork out monthly to O2/Vodafone for data.

While the student accomodation is very basic I never had any serious issues with regards safety or the apartments themselves. The organisation from the college was consistent and very straight forward - there were never any issues when claiming the travel allowance at the end of each rotation.

pc11

nomoreexams wrote: »

i've heard that too, hopefully a current student can confirm? Also do UCD have the same policy (edit: in terms of helping with travel expenses)?

I asked UCD about this and yes, it's paid for.

diverboy83

That's that then - decision made!!

nomoreexams

Another question to try and distinguish between the two: I know in RCSI the undergrads and gems merge in third year, is it the same in UCD?

nomoreexams

Just after I asked I found the answer in the frequently asked questions section on the UCD website- in the first 2 years gem and undergrads share 30% of lectures together. Do they graduate as one class though?

pc11

diverboy83 wrote: »

That's that then - decision made!!

Elaborate?

pc11

iscr wrote: »

The RCSI put you up or pay you travel expenses if you just want to drive. They own a lot of property around the country such as "Ardkeen" appartments which is just a stone's throw away from waterford regional and you tend to get your own room with study facilities (desk etc).

If you want to learn medicine in RCSI pray they stick you as far away from Dublin/Beaumont as possible as the atmosphere is much more pro-learning in the peripheral hospitals

Can you expand on that last bit? Is Beaumont that bad? How much choice do you have in the placements?

diverboy83

pc11 wrote: »

Elaborate?

This is what it is coming down to for me (obviously this is all heavily influenced by my own preferences and circumstances) - UCD over RCSI for the following reasons (in no particular order; I also want to point out that I would be delighted to go to either and believe that the quality of the education would be exceptional in both. However, there has to be a first preference and thus every aspect of the Colleges/courses was taken into consideration. I'm posting this in case there are points some people haven't considered or points which folk think ought to be factored in):

1. It's significantly cheaper per year.
2. More affordable on-campus accommodation.
3. Size and quality of facilities incl. the sports centre.
4. On campus for the first two years.
5. 'Molecules in Science' module.
6. First two years do not count towards GPA.
7. RCSI is 30 EU, 30 non EU. This means that half of the class will emigrate on graduation.
8. Affiliated with Vincent's, the Mater and Midlands Regional.
9. The bigger class size (77) means that there is likely to be a greater spread of backgrounds and age range.
10. More of a chance to mix with non medicine students from clubs and societies.
11. Ranks above RCSI on the international university ranking scale.
12. Seems more organised.
13. Also covers accommodation for peripheral clinical placements.
14. Longer summer break.

WoolahUrma

Last year rcsi ranked higher as a med school on qs. That's the 2013 ranking

Biologic

I was just sent a link to this video, which may be of help to anyone who missed the RCSI open day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbNzfsHtA2A

concerted

Just thought I'd chime in with the fact that in RCSI you get a laptop that is connected to their local servers. On which all your notes for each class is uploaded to along with a lot of other study material which I think (although haven't used it myself) would be a very neat way of keeping track of notes and subjects. I had the idea that in UCD you'd be hauling around books and books of notes

But i'm still very torn aswell between them. I'm somewhat leaning towards UCD given the size of the place and its training faculties.

iscr

One thing I never imagined going into GEP programme and it really only hits you when you join up with the undergrads is the whole issue of respect and "self respect". GEPS tend to be treated like little gods in Sandyford and even more so in Blanchardstown because the 2 profs are very nice and very professional. One of them even posts on the boards.ie thread.The undergrads have a much rougher ride, a more "old school" type of teaching and when you enter 3rd year you get an awful let down because now they treat you like dirt. Here is an example of some of the student concerns- read it and judge yourself if you think you are tough enough to hack it. It's very easy to get yourself in trouble, if some tutor etc takes a disliking to you and by third year you are 51 K + interest in debt........ Just see what you think but don't be foolish and think "That will never happen to me":
To: All Fourth Medical
Subject: SC committee meeting update!

Hi guys!

Apologies in the delay for sending out this email, just wanted to update you on what went on in the meeting. I know a lot of you were in touch with various issues, we tried to discuss everything, however if you found that you haven't found an answer to your query don't hesitate to drop us an email and we'll try our best to help out!

1- When are retakes:
Retakes will definitely be in August, exact dates will be published in the next few weeks

2- More guidance on SSCA/Subi/final med in general:
Subis/SSCAs can be taken abroad however must be approved beforehand, a link will be provided soon by SARA that goes through criteria, and a form that needs to be filled out. Further information on final med will be provided as well.

3- Why can't we find out if OBGYN end of rotation was passed/failed + can we get feedback:
Prof

shared that the reason he can't tell us if we passed or failed is because they wait for all the results from all the rotations and decide then where the curve lies on pass/fail. In terms of end of rotation feedback he says that the end of course OSCE is entirely unrelated to the long case format of end of year, so would not be useful. Feedback is however provided for case uploads, and students need to approach tutors at bedside tutorials and ask how their technique is etc. which would be more beneficial for long case exam.

4- Concerns over the pediatrics exam not being standardized/harder in some rotations than others:
Prof :)said that careful consideration is taken when picking exam topics, however he is happy to take our concerns on board and look into this.

5- Asking for our true marks for resit examinations even though they are capped at 50:
Students raised concerns that knowing true marks of resits will help us know how well we did. They agreed that this may be done and looked into as long as students realize that 50 will be on their transcript, and that the mark will be purely for feedback for students.

6- For the psych end of rotation exam feedback can be provided if students ask. however the grade, info whether passed or failed will not. Just general feedback on performance.

7- Info on end of year exams, what to expect in terms of Med/surge/gp osces/ data paper etc will be provided in terms of an examination QnA session where all of this will be addressed/answered. This will be set up shortly by admins

8- Concerns about students being bullied by consultants on rotations:
students should contact student welfare officers or SARA, and can choose to keep their concerns completely confidential. In the case of this happening on OBGYN, Prof :)shared that for this reason end of year exams are not done where you attended your rotation, So if you were in :rolleyes: your end of year will be in :rolleyes: Street/ :rolleyes: if you were in :rolleyes:s street you'd be in either Rotunda NMH etc, to avoid any student feeling victimized or 'hard done by' as a result of bad blood with certain consultants.

Finding out whether easter break will be given to us, need for more updated pastpapers, sharing concerns that the past psych osces were unfair will be pursued by us separately, and we'll be in touch with SARA/Prof

separately and have an answer to you very soon.

On a final note, thanks to everyone who already signed up for paintball, if you haven't already please do! it'll be a lot of fun and you'll get 1000 free paintballs, all your gear etc provided, sooo email me and get yourself signed uup!

Aaaaaand sorry for sending out this email so late!

Your Class Reps,

House_QC

iscr wrote: »

One thing I never imagined going into GEP programme and it really only hits you when you join up with the undergrads is the whole issue of respect and "self respect". GEPS tend to be treated like little gods in Sandyford and even more so in Blanchardstown because the 2 profs are very nice and very professional. One of them even posts on the boards.ie thread.The undergrads have a much rougher ride, a more "old school" type of teaching and when you enter 3rd year you get an awful let down because now they treat you like dirt. Here is an example of some of the student concerns- read it and judge yourself if you think you are tough enough to hack it. It's very easy to get yourself in trouble, if some tutor etc takes a disliking to you and by third year you are 51 K + interest in debt........ Just see what you think but don't be foolish and think "That will never happen to me":
To: All Fourth Medical
Subject: SC committee meeting update!

Hi guys!

Apologies in the delay for sending out this email, just wanted to update you on what went on in the meeting. I know a lot of you were in touch with various issues, we tried to discuss everything, however if you found that you haven't found an answer to your query don't hesitate to drop us an email and we'll try our best to help out!

1- When are retakes:
Retakes will definitely be in August, exact dates will be published in the next few weeks

2- More guidance on SSCA/Subi/final med in general:
Subis/SSCAs can be taken abroad however must be approved beforehand, a link will be provided soon by SARA that goes through criteria, and a form that needs to be filled out. Further information on final med will be provided as well.

3- Why can't we find out if OBGYN end of rotation was passed/failed + can we get feedback:
Prof shared that the reason he can't tell us if we passed or failed is because they wait for all the results from all the rotations and decide then where the curve lies on pass/fail. In terms of end of rotation feedback he says that the end of course OSCE is entirely unrelated to the long case format of end of year, so would not be useful. Feedback is however provided for case uploads, and students need to approach tutors at bedside tutorials and ask how their technique is etc. which would be more beneficial for long case exam.

4- Concerns over the pediatrics exam not being standardized/harder in some rotations than others:
Prof :)said that careful consideration is taken when picking exam topics, however he is happy to take our concerns on board and look into this.

5- Asking for our true marks for resit examinations even though they are capped at 50:
Students raised concerns that knowing true marks of resits will help us know how well we did. They agreed that this may be done and looked into as long as students realize that 50 will be on their transcript, and that the mark will be purely for feedback for students.

6- For the psych end of rotation exam feedback can be provided if students ask. however the grade, info whether passed or failed will not. Just general feedback on performance.

7- Info on end of year exams, what to expect in terms of Med/surge/gp osces/ data paper etc will be provided in terms of an examination QnA session where all of this will be addressed/answered. This will be set up shortly by admins

8- Concerns about students being bullied by consultants on rotations:
students should contact student welfare officers or SARA, and can choose to keep their concerns completely confidential. In the case of this happening on OBGYN, Prof :)shared that for this reason end of year exams are not done where you attended your rotation, So if you were in :rolleyes: your end of year will be in :rolleyes: Street/ :rolleyes: if you were in :rolleyes:s street you'd be in either Rotunda NMH etc, to avoid any student feeling victimized or 'hard done by' as a result of bad blood with certain consultants.

Finding out whether easter break will be given to us, need for more updated pastpapers, sharing concerns that the past psych osces were unfair will be pursued by us separately, and we'll be in touch with SARA/Prof separately and have an answer to you very soon.

On a final note, thanks to everyone who already signed up for paintball, if you haven't already please do! it'll be a lot of fun and you'll get 1000 free paintballs, all your gear etc provided, sooo email me and get yourself signed uup!

Aaaaaand sorry for sending out this email so late!

Your Class Reps,

What is your point, please, iscr?

House_QC

I read on one of the other forums that at RCSI, there was a problem in the organisation of the surgical rotation in year 3 or 4 GEM, i.e. you were not assigned to anyone in particular and effectively had to use your own initiative to get the appropriate training. It was mentioned that this was because RCSI had not paid for this service??

RCSI folk - is this in any way true?

I still cannot decide between UCD or RCSI as my first preference. I have analysed their websites in depth, read all the necessary literature, watched all the videos, trawled all the forums, blogs, etc.

I think RCSI's website is a lot more informative, sophisticated and impressive than UCD's website. I won't be able to visit either institution before I commence the GEM course. So I'm relying on other evidence to guide my decision.

At the moment, UCD is listed as my first preference. For simplicity, I might just leave it at that. I'm sure wherever I go, I'll be fine.

Vorsprung

WoolahUrma wrote: »

I found this a couple of weeks ago, its the latest ranking which place ucc above ucd or rcsi. Trinity is consistantly first but after that from what I've seen they vary too much to take too much notice of.

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2013/medicine?loc=Ireland&=Apply&field_ranking_scores_888906=0.4&field_ranking_scores_888911=0.1&field_ranking_scores_888916=0.25&field_ranking_scores_888921=0.25&custom_ranking=&save_my_rankings_data_sort=2%2Casc%2C0&save_my_rankings_data_limit=50&save_my_rankings_data_search=&save_my_rankings_data_start=0

diverboy83 wrote: »

This is what it is coming down to for me (obviously this is all heavily influenced by my own preferences and circumstances) - UCD over RCSI for the following reasons (in no particular order; I also want to point out that I would be delighted to go to either and believe that the quality of the education would be exceptional in both. However, there has to be a first preference and thus every aspect of the Colleges/courses was taken into consideration. I'm posting this in case there are points some people haven't considered or points which folk think ought to be factored in):

.....
11. Ranks above RCSI on the international university ranking scale.
....

Lads international rankings don't matter when it comes to your careers. Posts further down the line will depend on the grade you got in your finals, research as a student/doctor in a subject related to your chosen field of interest, post grad exams etc. The colleges might spout out rankings to attract applicants but if they do try not to pay much attention to them.

iscr

Oh, I have no point and the RCSI can not accuse me of having a "point" but focus on point 8 perhaps and have a think. It seems people feel they are bullied in the RCSI during their training. Would you be disappointed after you have spent 51 K on your education in the RCSI, the most expensive Graduate Entry course to discover you are being bullied for the pleasure? Don't be fools. Go for UCD. I'm sticking my neck out "whistleblowing" here guys!

If you read the SU letter too you'll detect subtle problems in administration- like they couldn't tell you if you were off for the break or not until the break was upon us. Or the way they do things like schedule an exam on the exam timetable and tell you the day before it's now a 1 1/2 hours longer than the timetable says as happened in our Med/Surg/ GP exam. A lot of people are employed in administration and a lot of your huge GEP fees is consumed by administration (probably why RCSI is so expensive) but what benefit do you get for all the people employed who cannot schedule final exam until the last second?

The exam timetable (up to the day before):
SC1
MEDICINE/SURGERY & GENERAL PRACTICE WRITTEN
21/05/2013
Tuesday
09:30 - 13:00
Exams Hall
Written

This is a letter from the class reps on Monday 20th about the Med/Surg/ GP final next day. Judge for yourself the respect the RCSI admin has for students:
Hey class,

I didn't see there was a change in our timetabling for tomorrow until Facebook. But we are trying to sort it out the best we can. Will keep everyone updated if anything changes or happens.

Cheers.
Your Class Reps

Almost comical? Almost like a scene from "Fawlty Towers"- "Ah Major, we have a bit of a problem. It seems that exam tomorrow is a bit longer than we thought...by 90 minutes only " "What Fawlty?".

The RCSI GEP program is a lousy deal after 2nd year and the GEP directors wash their hands of your care after that. Shame on them. The GEP fees generate almost 9 million per year in revenue for the college........and this is the value for money you get?

House_QC

iscr wrote: »

Oh, I have no point and the RCSI can not accuse me of having a "point" but focus on point 8 perhaps and have a think. It seems people feel they are bullied in the RCSI during their training. Would you be disappointed after you have spent 51 K on your education in the RCSI, the most expensive Graduate Entry course to discover you are being bullied for the pleasure? Don't be fools. Go for UCD. I'm sticking my neck out "whistleblowing" here guys!

If you read the SU letter too you'll detect subtle problems in administration- like they couldn't tell you if you were off for the break or not until the break was upon us. Or the way they do things like schedule an exam on the exam timetable and tell you the day before it's now a 1 1/2 hours longer than the timetable says as happened in our Med/Surg/ GP exam. A lot of people are employed in administration and a lot of your huge GEP fees is consumed by administration (probably why RCSI is so expensive) but what benefit do you get for all the people employed who cannot schedule final exam until the last second?

The exam timetable (up to the day before):
SC1
MEDICINE/SURGERY & GENERAL PRACTICE WRITTEN
21/05/2013
Tuesday
09:30 - 13:00
Exams Hall
Written

This is a letter from the class reps on Monday 20th about the Med/Surg/ GP final next day. Judge for yourself the respect the RCSI admin has for students:
Hey class,

I didn't see there was a change in our timetabling for tomorrow until Facebook. But we are trying to sort it out the best we can. Will keep everyone updated if anything changes or happens.

Cheers.
Your Class Reps

Almost comical? Almost like a scene from "Fawlty Towers"- "Ah Major, we have a bit of a problem. It seems that exam tomorrow is a bit longer than we thought...by 90 minutes only " "What Fawlty?".

The RCSI GEP program is a lousy deal after 2nd year and the GEP directors wash their hands of your care after that. Shame on them. The GEP fees generate almost 9 million per year in revenue for the college........and this is the value for money you get?

Well, thanks for information and good luck with your exams.

I've been reading the blog by an RCSI student: http://doc2be.ie/
It's quite informative but unfortunately, she disappears after second year of the GEM program. So what happens in year 3 and 4 of GEM at RCSI, please?

Years 1 and 2 at RCSI sound marvellous. But there is less concrete information about years 3 and 4. It does make me wonder...

iscr

Oh she's still there. She's going to be a great doc 2. She is a very good and kind person in real life and the type of Doctor you want to treat you. She has won prizes!

What happens in 3rd and 4th year is you basically teach yourself. Psychiatry puts in a great effort to teach you, in fairness, because they are interested in developing doctors and psychiatrists. But, and this is pure speculation, I think the RCSI problem lies in the fact that they don't pay the docs who train you. One of our profs was very honest and told us: "I'm getting well paid to teach you but by and large the people who train you do so for free"....the impression I get is that they teach you out of "Professionalism" and career enhancement rather than getting a monetary reward. That is a ludicrous situation as many of these docs have had their incomes cut in the economic crisis and yet the universities run businesses out of our public hospitals. You really learn from what the year ahead of you passes back on how to pass an exam. But every now and then you meet some Reg or SHO who gives a damn and sees the connection between the generations and the need to take you under their wing although they are tired to the bone. One lady in the Rotunda was very kind to me like that.

It's fairly stupid that James Reilly does not seek payment from the colleges for training the students. Who gets the money ? The RCSI claims its a "Not for profit" organisation...does that mean all the money that comes in gets converted to wages while their students train each other helped by a kindly SHO every now and then ??????
What makes me think UCD is a good choice was when we were in loughlinstown we were allowed join their teaching. Prof. O'shea personally taught us clinical skills and history taking. Their GEM students were excellent but seemed to have a gripe about not getting into RCSI (the points thing). There I was wishing I knew as much as they did!!!:)

nomoreexams

It's good to hear some of the bad stuff, everyone generally seems to sugarcoat their college, out of pride or for whatever reason. I want to hear the bad and the good so thanks ISCR. I'm leaning more towards UCD these days, not that I don't doubt that it has it's own faults too.

Flange/Flanders

Woah im gonna have to pull you up on the dig at ul there. The thumb print is true but a rep of ul told me that that's to ensure your attendance is above a certain percent. Many courses have a minimum percentage attendance.