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Turkish Spring

halkar

Last few days there have been protests in Istanbul for the development of shopping center on the grounds of park. This has escalated to nationwide protests after police reaction to the protestors. This morning thousands crossed the Bosphorus bridge from Asian Istanbul to European side to support protestors. Right now millions protesting all over Turkey in support of the protestors. What started as to save trees in the park became more political and demands of resignation of prime minister is being chanted along protestors. Protest is also supported across the world.

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The Gezi park is similar to our Phoenix park.
I do not think much will happen with the government as they are still pushing ahead with their agenda about the redevelopment of the park. However this could be beginning of something in Turkey as there are many unhappy people with the recent developments in Turkey.

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Nodin

Indeed. They seem to have gone bananas with the tear gas. Can't imagine that Istanbul is so stuck for shopping it needs to destroy a park for a shopping centre either.

Scofflaw

What looks like very widely supported unrest in Turkey:

Turkey has entered a second day of violent protests, with fresh clashes between police and demonstrators in Istanbul and the capital, Ankara.

The unrest began as a sit-in over plans to redevelop Gezi Park in Istanbul's Taksim Square, but escalated after police used tear gas.

Tear gas was again fired on Saturday at protesters in Istanbul and Ankara.

In a defiant speech, PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan insisted that the park project would go ahead.

He also said that police would remain in Taksim Square to preserve order.

Correspondents say that what began as a local issue has spiralled into more widespread anger at the government and ruling Justice and Development (AK) Party.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22739423

People in the city turning their lights on and off in support: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151685267208245&set=vb.516488244&type=2&theater

Not sure how far this will go - it's being reported in some places as if it's another Arab Spring - but likely to have more political effect than rioting on Portmarnock Beach.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Rightwing

Scofflaw wrote: »

What looks like very widely supported unrest in Turkey:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22739423

People in the city turning their lights on and off in support: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151685267208245&set=vb.516488244&type=2&theater

Not sure how far this will go - it's being reported in some places as if it's another Arab Spring - but likely to have more political effect than rioting on Portmarnock Beach.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I saw this yesterday. It makes for an interesting if dangerous situation. I don't think it can be compared to an arab spring, different reasons, but what are the reasons?

Scofflaw

Rightwing wrote: »

I saw this yesterday. It makes for an interesting if dangerous situation. I don't think it can be compared to an arab spring, different reasons, but what are the reasons?

That's hard to say. The original flashpoint was the digging up of a park in Istanbul to build a mall, which gathered about 50,000 people (compare the 2,500 Blockupy protestors outside the ECB!). However, the Mayor of Istanbul has denied that the park is to be destroyed, but in an extremely weaselly way:

People’s sincere concerns are being “exploited by misinformation” regarding the Taksim Gezi Park demolition, causing “unpleasant reflections” in the city, Istanbul Mayor Kadir Topbaş said May 31.

Speaking at a press conference following a bloody police crackdown on protesters earlier in the day, Topbaş dismissed claims that the park was being demolished to build a mall in its place. “It is simply the mandatory removal and transfer of trees in the area in order to enlarge the pedestrian walk,” he claimed.

“The work that will be done is not on the scale of a shopping mall, and what we see here is the exploitation of our nature-loving citizens with misinformation,” Topbaş said.

"Not on the scale"...is not the same as not. One explanation I've seen is that this is the latest in a long line of something we're very familiar with here - what we might call "crony development". That is, it's not the Islamist nature of the Erdogan government that's the problem, but that they're running roughshod over people's views on their own cities in favour of development opportunities for friends of the governing party.

In Ireland, FF made sure that was spread wide enough to get buy-in from the average voter, but here it seems to be an elite arrangement.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Iwasfrozen

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not sure how far this will go - it's being reported in some places as if it's another Arab Spring - but likely to have more political effect than rioting on

It's not an Arab spring. Turks are not Arabs! :mad:

Rightwing

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's not an Arab spring. Turks are not Arabs! :mad:

He didn't say it was in fairness.

It's a political situation, the Turks aren't happy the way the country is going, any excuse to force change is the way I'm interpretating this. With Syria so close, you don't want Turkey getting out of control.

Cody Pomeray

Surely Arab Spring is more of a geopolitical term than one necessarily incorporating Arab language and racial characteristics.

Early in the Arab Spring, everyone was talking about Iran and whether it would spread there; Iranians aren't arabs either. I don't think it's relevant.

If it is an Arab Spring, and if it has democratising characteristics, such an upheaval might have dramatic consequences for assuaging French and German fears on Turkey's EU membership.

Rightwing

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Surely Arab Spring is more of a geopolitical term than one necessarily incorporating Arab language and racial characteristics.

Early in the Arab Spring, everyone was talking about Iran and whether it would spread there; Iranians aren't arabs either. I don't think it's relevant.

If it is an Arab Spring, and if it has democratising characteristics, such an upheaval might have dramatic consequences for assuaging French and German fears on Turkey's EU membership.

Indeed, also the Arab Spring was against dictators. That's not the case in Turkey, so whatever happens here will be interesting. Now, of course it may just be like the London riots.

hfallada

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's not an Arab spring. Turks are not Arabs! :mad:

Neither are Iranians but the media were calling demonstrations in Iran as Arab spring. I wonder do the Turks agree with the Government trying to make turkey more conservative allowing Haijabs in Universities recently and the new restrictions on the sale of Alcohol.

yara

Scofflaw wrote: »

What looks like very widely supported unrest in Turkey:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22739423

People in the city turning their lights on and off in support: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151685267208245&set=vb.516488244&type=2&theater

Not sure how far this will go - it's being reported in some places as if it's another Arab Spring - but likely to have more political effect than rioting on Portmarnock Beach.

cordially,
Scofflaw

seeing as how the whole arab spring was created by the yanks lets hope it isn't

Le_Dieux

Been following this item on the news today.

Scary stuff if what the media says is to be believed. Apparently ( this how I am readin it anyhow) the Government there want to become more and more radical, and the people are not up for it. Hear hear I say!

Echoes of Tahrir Square all over again. Dangerous precedent if that's the case. Erdogan is playing with fire here imho.

[Deleted User]

I wonder if any sort of political turmoil from 'Spring' style protests would also convince the PKK to abandon it's moves towards peace to take advantage of the situation? That would be a real shame if it happened.

Scofflaw

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Been following this item on the news today.

Scary stuff if what the media says is to be believed. Apparently ( this how I am readin it anyhow) the Government there want to become more and more radical, and the people are not up for it. Hear hear I say!

Echoes of Tahrir Square all over again. Dangerous precedent if that's the case. Erdogan is playing with fire here imho.

That's the bit I'm not sure about - there are going to be people who want to portray it as a backlash against increasing Islamism, or in line with the uprisings around the Middle East, but it could perfectly well be an entirely secular/democratic set of protests against a government unpopular for a variety of reasons.

That's what I meant about the "Arab Spring narrative" - nothing to do with ethnic origin, but the idea of popularly precipitated abrupt regime change - which to me would be based on ignorance of Turkish democracy, and, indeed, a lumping of Muslim regimes together in an entirely inappropriate way. I don't see how this would produce "democratisation" in a country which is already democratic, and for whom most of the blocks to EU membership are to do with geopolitics.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Jonny7

There seems to be a level of frustration with Erdogan, especially among the younger protesters - they don't seem to like the creeping religious aspect, nor his apparent inability to take any criticsm, and the police are being far too heavy handed.. look at this asshole

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rynGYSDvNY

Many in hospital at the moment, 6 have lost eyes due to gas/canisters/water spray

Improbable

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's the bit I'm not sure about - there are going to be people who want to portray it as a backlash against increasing Islamism, or in line with the uprisings around the Middle East, but it could perfectly well be an entirely secular/democratic set of protests against a government unpopular for a variety of reasons.

That's what I meant about the "Arab Spring narrative" - nothing to do with ethnic origin, but the idea of popularly precipitated abrupt regime change - which to me would be based on ignorance of Turkish democracy, and, indeed, a lumping of Muslim regimes together in an entirely inappropriate way. I don't see how this would produce "democratisation" in a country which is already democratic, and for whom most of the blocks to EU membership are to do with geopolitics.

cordially,
Scofflaw

It's a mixture. There is definitely a more generalised dissatisfaction with the government in terms of not listening to the people, the plan to destroy the park to build an "Ottoman era barracks" type building with a mall/museum on the ground floor being a prime example. But there is also definitely increasing tension due to the fact that Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, is more islamic than many of the younger generation are comfortable with. I think this latest incident with the police brutality was the straw that broke the camel's back and acted as the spark that started what we see now. It's not protests over any 1 specific issue anymore, just the outcry of a people who are unhappy.

But to be honest, I don't think this is anything that will result in massive government upheaval. Someone will have to take public responsibility and things will remain, for the most part, as they are.

Source: I'm Turkish

JohnCrichton72

Rightwing wrote: »

I saw this yesterday. It makes for an interesting if dangerous situation. I don't think it can be compared to an arab spring, different reasons, but what are the reasons?

The reasons are that the Arab Spring was a fight to install, democratically, a theocratic dictatorship based on the teachings of Islam. Which means Sharia.

This seems to be what happened in countries after the fact, were the non-Muslims realize Islam is not tolerant and if they allow the rule of law to use the Islamic texts (Quaran and the hadith etc.) as its moral foundation they will suffer dearly.

If you think having a large Muslim demographic in a democracy wont be so bad all you have to do is look at the Arab Spring, the Muslims waited under dictatorships for a long time and first chance they got Sharia was voted in. I think the exception was Tunisia which last I checked, a few months ago, the constitution was being rewritten and an Islamic group called Enhannda? was in charge....... outlook was not good.

It always amazes me that people believe that will never happen here in Europe.

Jonny7

JohnCrichton72 wrote: »

It always amazes me that people believe that will never happen here in Europe.

It already happened Nick Griffin, it's called the catholic church and if you hadn't noticed we're still separating it from the state.

JohnCrichton72

Jonny7 wrote: »

It already happened Nick Griffin, it's called the catholic church and if you hadn't noticed we're still separating it from the state.

Yeah will now you are importing people to fight on their side, just what you need more theocrazies. I'm north of the border, last I heard you were actually loosing (blasphemy law).

I don't know anything about Nick Grffin other than he is a politician, I assume that was an insult though? It's my first post, you are the first person I've met here

AlekSmart

Jonny7 wrote: »

It already happened Nick Griffin, it's called the catholic church and if you hadn't noticed we're still separating it from the state.

Perhaps just a tad sharp a reaction ?

JohnCrichton72 manages to make a reasonable point,for sure worth debating...

This seems to be what happened in countries after the fact, where the non-Muslims realize Islam is not tolerant and if they allow the rule of law to use the Islamic texts (Quaran and the hadith etc.) as its moral foundation they will suffer dearly.

Listening to Anjam Chaudry outlining Islam's preferences and requirements for submission it's a little easier to understand why the Turkish protesters wish to ensure it's attractions are best appreciated from afar ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmaScSqZjrY

Not a problem when this stuff is being peddled by loonies on soap-boxes,however Mr Chaudry is somewhat more highly regarded.

It could equally be argued that whilst Ireland seeks to disentangle itself from Church influence in matters of State,it's far less likely to warn the Anjam's to STFU or they'll be turfed out on their butt ?

There's a bit more to inclusivity than merely freezing out Catholics ?

AlekSmart

halkar wrote: »

.
However this could be beginning of something in Turkey as there are many unhappy people with the recent developments in Turkey.

Indeed,people unhappy about events and policies which some folks here would see as a necessary part of a nation (any Nation) becoming more all-embracing and receptive to other cultures and belief systems.

It really can be a Funny Ol World at times ?

Scofflaw

This thread is not to become yet another opportunity for Islam-bashing by those whose particular soap-box subject that is. You know who you are, and so do I.

[EDIT]Apparently some of you don't. Islam-bashing post deleted, next one wins an infraction or ban. This thread is not just an opportunity to air your prejudices.[/EDIT]

moderately,
Scofflaw

Rightwing

There's a good article on it here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/protesters-defiant-as-turkey-unrest-goes-into-third-day-1.1414796

Seems to me the people are against this chap clamping down on them a bit. One must say he has turned the Turkish economy around very well.

Le_Dieux

Improbable wrote: »

It's a mixture. There is definitely a more generalised dissatisfaction with the government in terms of not listening to the people, the plan to destroy the park to build an "Ottoman era barracks" type building with a mall/museum on the ground floor being a prime example. But there is also definitely increasing tension due to the fact that Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, is more islamic than many of the younger generation are comfortable with. I think this latest incident with the police brutality was the straw that broke the camel's back and acted as the spark that started what we see now. It's not protests over any 1 specific issue anymore, just the outcry of a people who are unhappy.

But to be honest, I don't think this is anything that will result in massive government upheaval. Someone will have to take public responsibility and things will remain, for the most part, as they are.

Source: I'm Turkish

I see on the news this morning that there is now loss of life. I sincerely hope ( assuming You are in Ireland) that Your loved ones are safe and well in Turkey.

Without wanting to tempt faith here ( and hope I'm not stamping on toes) but religion and beliefs are the roots of ALL evil in this mad world.

Rightwing

Le_Dieux wrote: »

I see on the news this morning that there is now loss of life. I sincerely hope ( assuming You are in Ireland) that Your loved ones are safe and well in Turkey.

Without wanting to tempt faith here ( and hope I'm not stamping on toes) but religion and beliefs are the roots of ALL evil in this mad world.

Isn't that why the song Imagine is one of the world's favourites.

Le_Dieux

Rightwing wrote: »

Isn't that why the song Imagine is one of the world's favourites.

Indeed I should think soRW. That and probably any track of music from the late 60's through to at least the mid 80's. Being a Pink Floyd NUT myself, I can name many tracks that fall into the category You refer to above. BUT, now I am deviating, which I don't wish to.

We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
Hey Teacher, leave them Kids alone!!!

Rightwing

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Indeed I should think soRW. That and probably any track of music from the late 60's through to at least the mid 80's. Being a Pink Floyd NUT myself, I can name many tracks that fall into the category You refer to above. BUT, now I am deviating, which I don't wish to.

We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
Hey Teacher, leave them Kids alone!!!

Well I'm not sure about that bit!
In fact that's what I think is holding back those countries in the middle east/N Africa etc, a lack of education, the internet is a great educator though for those people.
But it was a great song

AlekSmart

Rightwing wrote: »

Well I'm not sure about that bit!
In fact that's what I think is holding back those countries in the middle east/N Africa etc, a lack of education, the internet is a great educator though for those people.
But it was a great song .

True,however it's kinda headscratching to me that we in Ireland enjoy pretty widespread access to high-quality education for decades now,yet significant elements of our population appear to thrive on proving their indifference and immunity to it's supposed benefits.

Le_Dieux

Rightwing wrote: »

Well I'm not sure about that bit!
In fact that's what I think is holding back those countries in the middle east/N Africa etc, a lack of education, the internet is a great educator though for those people.
But it was a great song .

Hahah, then let's agree to disagree:)

Rightwing

AlekSmart wrote: »

True,however it's kinda headscratching to me that we in Ireland enjoy pretty widespread access to high-quality education for decades now,yet significant elements of our population appear to thrive on proving their indifference and immunity to it's supposed benefits.

Our education system isn't all it's cracked up to be. Like most countries we concentrate on the wrong areas, for instance, what benefit is Gaeilge to anyone? Areas like economics & ICT should be a must.

AlekSmart

Rightwing wrote: »

There's a good article on it here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/protesters-defiant-as-turkey-unrest-goes-into-third-day-1.1414796

Seems to me the people are against this chap clamping down on them a bit. One must say he has turned the Turkish economy around very well.

Forget about all the oul Islamic shytt,this has just gotten SERIOUS !!!!

A group of soccer fans from fierce rival Istanbul clubs Fenerbache, Besiktas and Galatasaray joined the chant.

If I were Mr Erdogan,I'd be on the next magic-carpet outa there