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Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

TheLastMohican

Has the pendulum swung too far? Is dressing provocatively giving the wrong message?

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/nick-ross-triggers-outrage-with-comments-on-rape-29297621.html

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Smidge

Gbear wrote: »

Is there any evidence that rapists are more likely to rape a woman in a dress/skirt/loincloth as opposed to, for example, brown baggy corduroy pants?

It seems reasonable enough to suggest that women should take precautions because everyone should take precautions against everything up to a point.
Would it even make a difference though?

Wouldn't make any difference whatsoever.

Rape is not about sex...
It's about power.
It's about taking something very intrinsic to the victim, away from them.

Amirani

Seanafitz wrote: »

To protect your belongings yes you get an alarm ... But do you take precautions against rape? Why should women when men don't ?

I'm a man and I do take precautions against being raped, just like I take precautions against being killed or robbed. Unfortunately, the precautions one can take are limited. If any of those things happen to me, it's not my fault. That doesn't mean I'm not going to try and prevent them.

I don't walk on my own in unsafe areas when I can avoid it, I'd recommend others do the same. I think you should generally let a family member/friend know if you do have to put yourself in such a position. Carrying a phone is always a good idea.

Do you not think people should do these things?

Amirani

Pokiedots wrote: »

I could lock my car and house and alarm them to the hilt, if that is how I choose to act, but if one day I didn't put the alarm on in my house I am not asking anyone to rob my house, it wouldn't be giving anyone permission to do so and it certainly would be the person who robbed my house's fault that I got robbed

I agree 100%, I've never claimed otherwise.

charlemont

The Backwards Man wrote: »

If I go into the bank tomorrow and there is a bag of money on the floor, I still know it is wrong to take it. Simple as.

Well the bag of money isn't going to say No..

Amirani

jill_valentine wrote: »

The focus of discussion about rape shouldn't CONSTANTLY hover around the woman's behaviour or dress. It's the guy who raped her who made it a rape. So how about - just the once - in a conversation about rape, we spend more time talking about the rapist, and his circumstances and choices, rather than the victim and hers?

Let's go mad altogether and give that a try, eh?

What's there to talk about? There's no justifying or redeeming features that make it worth talking about rapists.

Femme_Fatale

jill_valentine wrote: »

Look, if what a woman wore was really a deciding factor, Pacific nations - where women wear little or nothing - would have leagues more rape than Islamic ones, where the whole body is hidden. And since that's clearly not the case, it's a moot bloody point.

Unless you earnestly believe that what a woman wears turns an otherwise decent bloke into an instant rapist, then what the woman was wearing could only possibly have some bearing on whether or not he raped her instead of somebody else. In which case, it's still a moot point.

The focus of discussion about rape shouldn't CONSTANTLY hover around the woman's behaviour or dress. It's the guy who raped her who made it a rape. So how about - just the once - in a conversation about rape, we spend more time talking about the rapist, and his circumstances and choices, rather than the victim and hers?

Let's go mad altogether and give that a try, eh?

Yeh, the rape victim being foolish to walk alone down a deserted side street late at night seems to get far more focus on the person who decided to hang around that deserted street in the hope of snaring a lone person to rape.

The above isn't the only scenario in which rape can occur anyway. There are lots of situations, and plenty of them are not ones for which a person can prepare.

Amirani

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

The above isn't the only scenario in which rape can occur anyway. There are lots of situations, and plenty of them are not ones for which a person can prepare.

That's a very fair point. But in situations where they can prepare, do you think they should? Would you?

leggo

Esoteric_ wrote: »

Tbh I hate when people say that you should take precautions against being raped.

The majority of rape victims know/knew their attacker. It's not the 'man grabbing a woman down a dark alley way' scenario the majority of the time. Men and women are more likely to be raped by somebody they know.

What exactly is wrong with being cautious, though?

Again, nobody that I've seen post here so far (outside of the link in the OP) is blaming women for being raped. It's plain naive to think that because we shouldn't have to fear burglary, assault, rape etc...that we shouldn't take precautions against it. Will they always be 100% safe? No. But you'll be safer!

Amirani

Smidge wrote: »

Wouldn't make any difference whatsoever.

Rape is not about sex...
It's about power.
It's about taking something very intrinsic to the victim, away from them.

I do think the clothes thing gets more attention than it deserves. I don't think it's really a factor in causing rapes. It's generally down to the attitude of the aggressor and some degree of opportunism.

Femme_Fatale

NiallSparky wrote: »

That's a very fair point. But in situations where they can prepare, do you think they should? Would you?

Yeh I wouldn't walk around a deserted area late at night alone. I think it's fair to warn against doing same. It's not victim-blaming, in my opinion.

But I wouldn't be going on about it if someone was raped in such a situation. Nobody knows why they were walking there in the first place anyway - it's not always done because of drunkenness/wrecklessness.

That's about the only precaution I can think of when it comes to rape. I already said I think clothing is irrelevant. I think drunkenness is irrelevant too - ok it's not advisable to get comatose drunk for a number of reasons, but it is not an invitation to be raped whatsoever.

The Backwards Man

charlemont wrote: »

Well the bag of money isn't going to say No..

Being incapable of giving consent is the same as not giving consent, I would have thought.

starling

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Teach your daughters to say no then, can't go around calling people rapists because a girl has sex because she felt obliged but didn't object in any way.

Yes. We need to be talking to our kids about consent. I know my parents didn't feel comfortable talking about sex to me when I was young, but we need to get past that discomfort and talk about how nobody has the right to force sex on anyone else.
IMO it's better to teach them what "yes" looks like. That is, it's not enough to tell our sons "If she says no, you stop." We should be telling them to ask for definite consent. To say "Are you sure?" or "Do you want this?"

Esoteric_

leggo wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with being cautious, though?

Again, nobody that I've seen post here so far (outside of the link in the OP) is blaming women for being raped. It's plain naive to think that because we shouldn't have to fear burglary, assault, rape etc...that we shouldn't take precautions against it. Will they always be 100% safe? No. But you'll be safer!

Nothing is wrong with being cautious. However, there's something seriously wrong if you feel the need to think 'Right, I need to take precautions against being raped.' Shows how shít some aspects of living on this planet are tbh.

But like I said, MOST rape victims aren't raped on their way home from a club, walking alone. They're raped by people who know them.

If I were to take precautions against being raped, based on what happened to me in the past, I'd have to never have another boyfriend, never go to a party, never wear pyjamas after the party was over, never refuse to share a room with the boyfriend, etc etc.

being raped on your way home from a night out is a very, VERY rare thing to happen. It's much more likely that you'll be raped by a friend, a partner, a family member, etc. So in reality, there are feck all precautions you can take specifically against being raped. Loads you can take against being robbed/mugged, very few against being raped.

kingcobra

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yeh, the rape victim being foolish to walk alone down a deserted side street late at night seems to get far more focus on the person who decided to hang around that deserted street in the hope of snaring a lone person to rape.

The above isn't the only scenario in which rape can occur anyway. There are lots of situations, and plenty of them are not ones for which a person can prepare.

But it still is not wise for the rape victim not to walk down a deserted side street in the first place anyway. As a male, I wouldn't even do that and I'm sure the majority of other males wouldn't do that either or fear of being burgled or beaten up. It's unfortunate that we can't do as we please but it's the fact of life - there will always be scummy low life people who prey on vulnerable people.

Of course there are different ways a rape can occur, but it's still worth trying to take measures against as many of these ways as possible, and that's for your own well-being. Choosing these preventative measures isn't for the good of others, it's for the good of yourself.

jill_valentine

NiallSparky wrote: »

What's there to talk about? There's no justifying or redeeming features that make it worth talking about rapists.

Rapists don't materialise out of a clear blue sky, they don't beam down to earth from a spaceship. They live in the same societies, countries and justice systems than the rest of us. They go to the same schools, watch the same TV, hear the same news stories.

But since not every country or society or culture has identical occurrence of rape, clearly, some of those variables have an effect. Most rapists aren't insane - so what cultural or societal differences made the rapist think it was a course of action they could consider, or that they'd get away with it?

If one country had a high rate of murder, and another one didn't, people would talk about what the first country was doing right and the second doing wrong in their efforts to prevent murder.

We would not be sitting around discussing what the victims might have done differently.

Smidge

NiallSparky wrote: »

I do think the clothes thing gets more attention than it deserves. I don't think it's really a factor in causing rapes. It's generally down to the attitude of the aggressor and some degree of opportunism.

I've always found the "clothes thing" very interesting when its wheeled out in relation to rape.

Like the only women(and I use the example of a woman rape victim as its not used so much in male rape cases)who are raped are young, slender, scantly clad women who are flaunting their assests.

No, there have never been cases of rape against older, fatter, less glamourous, middle aged women.
Or there has never been a pensioner lady raped.
:rolleyes:

It(clothing)seems to be a mitigating factor against young female rape victims though and I have always wondered how on earth it is ever even allowed to be brought up in the defence

efb

http://www.independent.ie/woman/celeb-news/polanski-feminism-is-a-bitter-pill-29297022.html

Esoteric_

efb wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/woman/celeb-news/polanski-feminism-is-a-bitter-pill-29297022.html

What has Roman Polanski's view on 'feminism' got to do with this thread?

jesus_thats_gre

The desire to express outrage and refusal to engage in rational debate is somewhat strange on this thread. Leggo, albeit more coherently, and NiallySparky are making fairly reasonable points and advocating reasaonble caution to avoid what is a terrible event.

starling

NiallSparky wrote: »

Do you take precautions against being murdered or robbed? Do you have an alarm on your house or your car?

When you get murdered nobody says "well he was asking for it, wearing that outfit." When your car gets stolen the defence counsel doesn't try to imply that it was your fault because you didn't lock your car.

Most people who give out advice about "how to avoid being raped" are genuinely well-meaning. The problem is that once you start talking about the things one should do, or not do, to avoid being raped, when someone gets raped the media and the barristers all start examining the victim's life and actions with a view to picking out the things they did wrong.
Any evidence that the victim did not follow the usual "advice" is then used against her. This does not generally happen with other crimes. It shifts at least some of the blame from the rapist to the victim.

When people say "We spend all this time telling women how not to get raped, why don't we teach men not to rape?" they're not just being flippant. The number of times a woman hears "do this, don't do that, etc." is enormous compared to the number of times anyone seriously talks to a man about the issue of consent.
Obviously just telling men "Hey lads - don't rape women, yeah?" is pointless. But you'd be surprised how many people don't actually realise that a rape has happened, or who are unclear about consent in certain circumstances. If we really spent as much time discussing these things - ideally as part of sex ed in schools - as we do telling women what not to do, we would definitely reduce the number of rapes. That's how I see it, anyway.

The unpleasant truth is that you can do all the things you're "supposed" to do and it won't really protect you in the end. The various pieces of "advice" we spread around are part of a comforting lie we tell ourselves so we can go on with our lives: if I do all these things right, I won't get raped.... It's not true.

Repeating these things doesn't actually protect us. What it does do is make it harder for rape victims to come forward ("No-one will believe me, I was drunk") and harder to prosecute a rape if they do come forward ("She got into a taxi with him, she obviously wanted it").

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

No means no. If at any point someone says no and the act continues then it's rape. It doesn't matter if she's walking down the street in a bra and crotchless knickers, if a woman tells a man no, he needs to back off.

efb

Esoteric_ wrote: »

What has Roman Polanski's view on 'feminism' got to do with this thread?

his conviction

jill_valentine

kingcobra wrote: »

Of course there are different ways a rape can occur, but it's still worth trying to take measures against as many of these ways as possible, and that's for your own well-being. Choosing these preventative measures isn't for the good of others, it's for the good of yourself.

Read this out loud as if it's been addressed to you, and see if you can hear how incredibly patronising this sentiment is to my ear.

Good little gartlas, we're only telling you this stuff for your own good. We only always fixate on what she was wearing or doing during these attacks to an absurdly disproportionate extent in your best interest.

Her choices were immaterial - it was his choice to rape her. He did not have a sudden, spontaneous attack of rape-capability that would not have otherwise existed just because she walked home alone.

When some unfortunate non-criminal randomer is shot or stabbed, what they did or where they were at the time never monopolises the discourse anything like as totally and comparably.

So why is it always the dominant theme of discussion when it comes to rape?

Smidge

^
+1

It's like the phrase "Wrong place, wrong time" is used sympathetically when an innocent victim is murdered.

But when it's a rape..............

"Shure what could you expect, walking down that way by herself"

kerry4sam

TheLastMohican wrote: »

Has the pendulum swung too far? Is dressing provocatively giving the wrong message?

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/nick-ross-triggers-outrage-with-comments-on-rape-29297621.html

Any man who refuses to take no for an answer deserves everything thrown at them; be it refusal to take no to sex and it resulting in rape or even refusal to take no and it leading to harassment.

Don't understand myself how some men have serious difficulty understanding the word no or refuse to take no for an answer.

It is disgusting to say the least when someone says they were provoked in to raping someone, however, it is not always easy for some people to keep their hands to themselves when they reach a certain point! It is difficult for some to back down as it effects their esteem; their sense of power; their sense of control and therefore they continue even when 'no' has been spoken.

Others can prevent a rape from occurring if they are near or overhear or are a first-hand witness as happens in gang-bang rape scenarios.

Unfortunately though, this is not a world where when someone says no, it is always taken as go no further. This is not a world where when everyone can suddenly stop from having sex when 'No' is spoken and thus it continues under duress as I said previous, it effects their own sense of power and need for control.

Are men always to blame? I don't know. I find it best to take each situation on its own merits and identify the facts of each case first before throwing out an answer to that question op.

I would advocate all who would be considered a weaker build to take some self-defence classes and build up some strength and moves to assist with defending oneself. It is not always women who get raped; which is why I suggested those of a weaker build. Strength and control are big issues in rape cases and being able to take control yourself or get the upper hand in a serious; frightening situation can assist you no end.

/I've only ever found myself in one really difficult situation with a few others whilst travelling in Prague and we'd a very close encounter with two men with guns in their possession. I was thankful for the self-defence classes I'd attended in recent years; the experience I'd encountered first-hand with one particular voluntary work and the mind-set I have developed. Being able to re-gain control of the situation yourself is of paramount importance.

Thanks,
kerry4sam

KKkitty

Just going by what happened to me here. I was 16 and it was my first time. At no stage did I think I was in harms way til I decided I didn't like it and after many attempts at saying no and him still going through with it telling me it was ok and me practically frozen with fear at that point. Some lads obviously experience some kind of power trip over girls as regards sex.

starling

There's a girl in America who was featured in the news a bit because she named her rapist publicly. She was raped at college and she has a taped confession from the guy. He also confessed in front of witnesses - mediators from the college - on another occasion. IIRC his exact words were "I was horny, I wanted to f*ck, so I f*cked."

The thing is that he was her boyfriend at the time. They'd been going out a few weeks and they got on really well. She trusted him. They "fooled around" as the yanks say, but they talked about sex, and she said that she wanted to wait. Not for marriage, just wanted to know him better, before they did it. He said he understood and was fine with it.

He got really drunk one night and he was so pissed she felt she should get him into a taxi and take him home before he hurt himself or got into some kind of trouble. They went to her dorm because she thought he was in for a massive hangover and maybe if she fed him and got some aspirin into him he might avoid the worst of it.

He ate some soup I think, had an aspirin and then they went to bed and he raped her.

I was in a similar position with a boyfriend I had in college. I'd stay over at his place on the weekend, and we'd mess around but I told him I needed time before we actually had sex (I was only 17). He told me that he understood and he was fine with that. We both got drunk regularly.

The only difference between me and this American girl is that my boyfriend wasn't a rapist. That's it.

The reason I'm telling this story is that on every website that featured her story, the comments were full of people saying "she shouldn't have gone to bed with him WTF did she expect" and even "she shouldn't have let him in to her dorm room alone that's just common sense."

That is what happens when we focus on "precautions". People end up telling the victim she is responsible for what happened to her because she was alone in her room with her boyfriend.:(

starling

KKkitty wrote: »

Just going by what happened to me here. I was 16 and it was my first time. At no stage did I think I was in harms way til I decided I didn't like it and after many attempts at saying no and him still going through with it telling me it was ok and me practically frozen with fear at that point. Some lads obviously experience some kind of power trip over girls as regards sex.

That's horrible kitty I'm sorry that happened to you. The awful thing is that so many girls in that situation think they can't really do anything about it because it was "too late" when they said Stop.

starling

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

The desire to express outrage and refusal to engage in rational debate is somewhat strange on this thread. Leggo, albeit more coherently, and NiallySparky are making fairly reasonable points and advocating reasaonble caution to avoid what is a terrible event.

I don't see anyone who has disagreed with Leggo or NiallySparky being irrational.

IM0

you should probably read this for the FULL version of the article, and not the FLAMING one in the OP

and yes its from the dailymail of all places *gulp* :eek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330934/Its-heresy-I-know-But-women-victims-And-rape-rape-Crimewatch-creator-risks-backlash-outrageous-views-sex-crimes.html