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Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

TheLastMohican

Has the pendulum swung too far? Is dressing provocatively giving the wrong message?

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/nick-ross-triggers-outrage-with-comments-on-rape-29297621.html

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efb

jhegarty wrote: »

Under Irish law , yes you can. It wouldn't be rape.

yes it would

http://www.rcni.ie/the-law.aspx

KKkitty

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

You asked him to stop, he refused. That is clearly rape. I'm sorry you went through it I know it can be confusing though - the human brain is a funny thing. I was a similar age to you when I was raped and it was a very confusing time afterwards.

I'm really sorry you went through it too

For years after it I blamed myself and was self destructive with alcohol and honestly not caring what happened to me.

Links234

NiallSparky wrote: »

just like it would be silly for a person to not take appropriate precautions against being raped.

no, you know what? **** this attitude and **** everything about it

when someone's taking 'precautions against being raped' what they're doing is saying "please rape someone else"

SB2013

efb wrote: »

yes it would

http://www.rcni.ie/the-law.aspx

No it wouldn't. A woman cannot rape a man through sexual intercourse. Section 4 rape covers the use of an object.

leggo

If she says no, it's rape. There's no wiggle room there.

However, indulge me for a second. I remember one girl I knew in school. She was an awful attention seeker; would basically do or say anything to get lads ogling her. She'd even actively encourage people to feel her up at times. (It was around this stage that I got a bit creeped out by that group of friends and moved onto another one)

Once, a lad she didn't like joined in on the action and she flipped at him. Seeing it happen, I couldn't help but feel the lad was a bit hard done by. Of course it should've never been an option for him (or others), but there was no real barrier to entry, no process for her to give or remove consent...since she appeared to pretty much let any lad have a feel (and they did...being horny teenagers, some of whom probably hadn't ever felt a breast for any prolonged period). The situation didn't escalate, quite cruelly the lad was shamed in front of the whole group and thus probably began a long struggle with the opposite sex afterwards.

The reality of the situation was that she should've drawn her own barriers. Her need for attention from the opposite sex was such that sometimes it drew the kind of attention she didn't want. That's the reality, I saw it happen.

So yes, rape is always rape, and there's no excuse for any man who crosses that line. However, I think it's also worth adding to the conversation that women can inadvertently make themselves targets for the attention of these psychopathic creeps.

That isn't to say they 'deserve it' or 'brought it on themselves'...nobody deserves to suffer a crime so grave. And I'd also fully believe that the vast, VAST majority of the time how the woman dressed or acted had nothing to do with what later happened. But there is a small amount of nuance that I think exists within this argument, and we'd be fools not to acknowledge it.

Seanafitz

jhegarty wrote: »

Under Irish law , yes you can. It wouldn't be rape.

Actually I want to delve into this more .. Are you telling me .. I can see a nice looking man in a pair of short wit no tshirts on . Hold him down and force him to have sex wit me and then when he tries to get me charged the Garda are going to tell him he hasn't a case because he was walking around with no top on ??? That Irish laws allow for sexual assaults and rapes on men that have no tshirt ?

*slaps head again in pure desperation at the tought of this ridiculous notion

SB2013

Seanafitz wrote: »

Actually I want to delve into this more .. Are you telling me .. I can see a nice looking man in a pair of short wit no tshirts on . Hold him down and force him to have sex wit me and then when he tries to get me charged the Garda are going to tell him he hasn't a case because he was walking around with no top on ??? That Irish laws allow for sexual assaults and rapes on men that have no tshirt ?

*slaps head again in pure desperation at the tought of this ridiculous notion

It would be a sexual assault only, not a rape.

coolhull

NiallSparky wrote: »

it would be silly for a person to not take appropriate precautions against being raped.

What are ''appropriate precautions'' that women should take against being raped?
And why should they have to?

Amirani

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

More victim blaming. So I shouldn't be allowed to walk down the street in a dress or a skirt? Do I deserve to be raped because I didn't take "all appropriate precautions"?

Here's a suggestion - men and women be allowed wear whatever they want and men (and sometimes women) just stop raping people, hmm?

I haven't done any victim blaming. The post of mine you quoted clarifies that I believe that 100% of the responsibility lies with the perpetrator.

However, people who walk through dangerous areas on their own while drunk or otherwise are extremely foolish. People should consider the threat of being murdered, mugged or raped when making choices. We don't live in a fantasy world where none of these exist. I mentioned nothing about the clothes that people wear, simply that people should be as sensible as possible.

jaffacakesyum

KKkitty wrote: »

I'm really sorry you went through it too For years after it I blamed myself and was self destructive with alcohol and honestly not caring what happened to me.

Have you talked to anyone about it? For years I didn't tell anybody, and I'm a bit of a brick wall when it comes to emotions sometimes so I felt like I didn't need to, but honestly I would recommend talking to a professional or a close friend or family member. You'd be surprised also, when you start talking to friends and family about it, that they will have their own stories to tell. It's saddening but also comforting that you're not alone at all in your experiences. Unfortunately it's very common. That's not to take away what you've gone through though, of course it's an awful thing to happen to anyone.

Hope you're doing better with regards to the alcohol - I'm trying to cut down myself!! Best of luck and pm me if you ever wanna chat!

leggo

coolhull wrote: »

And why should they have to?

I'm not defending the argument you quoted, but I don't like that line of questioning on this issue. I don't think it helps.

In an ideal world, we should be able to leave our doors open for the neighbours to wander in for a chat as they please. But we are forced to lock them and put alarms on for fear of being burgled. We shouldn't have to, but alas, we do.

By that logic, it'd be a fair counterpoint to say that the fact that there are evil scum out there who would commit such crimes, that it's only logical women take the necessary precautions to ensure they don't court their attention. A dangerous rapist may deserve to be told what a horrible person they are in the street, but it also wouldn't be a wise decision for a woman to do so on her own. See what I mean?

SB2013

coolhull wrote: »

What are ''appropriate precautions'' that women should take against being raped?
And why should they have to?

Because unfortunately there are people out there who would think nothin of taking advantage of a vulnerable person. You can call it victim blaming if you want. I call it adapting to a ****ty world.

Amirani

Links234 wrote: »

no, you know what? **** this attitude and **** everything about it

when someone's taking 'precautions against being raped' what they're doing is saying "please rape someone else"

I didn't just refer to rape, I referred to every crime. Don't walk around South London at night with an iPhone hanging around your neck. Don't make racist remarks while walking through Brooklyn. I merely said people should be as sensible as possible, I don't see how you can disagree with that. The World can be a **** place and you have to remember that.

Femme_Fatale

Yeh ok it's unwise for anyone to e.g. walk down a deserted street alone late at night, but if they (female or male) are raped, the blame still overwhelmingly lies with the rapist. Any responsibility the victim has is negligible.

But the provocative clothing thing is a load of tripe: wearing flowing robes doesn't stop women being raped in Sharia-governed countries.

It's a no-no to have sex with someone who is nearly comatose drunk too.

Gin77

Aren't who women coerced into sex also rape victims?
So therefore people who pimp women for sex are rapists.
Are teenage boys who urge girls into having sex rapists?
And also the girl who doesn't want to but feel obliged as shes ends up at some fella's house.
I have daughters I worry about this stuff.

Amirani

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yeh ok it's unwise for anyone to e.g. walk down a deserted street alone late at night, but if they (female or male) are raped, the blame still overwhelmingly lies with the rapist. Any responsibility the victim has is negligible

Not just overwhelmingly in my view, the blame absolutely lies with the rapist, 100%. There's never any leeway in that sense for me.

Seanafitz

SB2013 wrote: »

Because unfortunately there are people out there who would think nothin of taking advantage of a vulnerable person. You can call it victim blaming if you want. I call it adapting to a ****ty world.

So should we cover up and not wer a dress or skirts ? Should we muslimise our country and be uptight just to protect women from rape ? Or to protect rapists from being exposed ?

Because in my opinion nothing gives any other human being the right to have any type of sexual interactions with you without your permission ... I couldn care if you walk around with a sign on your neck saying I like to have sex ... That's not a reasonable excuse for a person to be raped !

ahnowbrowncow

Gin77 wrote: »

Aren't who women coerced into sex also rape victims?
So therefore people who pimp women for sex are rapists.
Are teenage boys who urge girls into having sex rapists?
And also the girl who doesn't want to but feel obliged as shes ends up at some fella's house.
I have daughters I worry about this stuff.

Teach your daughters to say no then, can't go around calling people rapists because a girl has sex because she felt obliged but didn't object in any way.

Gbear

Is there any evidence that rapists are more likely to rape a woman in a dress/skirt/loincloth as opposed to, for example, brown baggy corduroy pants?

It seems reasonable enough to suggest that women should take precautions because everyone should take precautions against everything up to a point.
Would it even make a difference though?

Pokiedots

NiallSparky wrote: »

it would be silly for a person to not take appropriate precautions against being raped.

Sorry?
You take precautions, like using a condom, against getting pregnant because sperm in its natural state is a method of impregnating

You take precautions, like using an umbrella when it rains, to avoid getting wet because rain naturally makes things wet

You don't take precautions against getting raped because it is no ones natural state or primary function to rape another

I find the idea of someone claiming they were provoked into raping someone else or not prevented from raping someone disgusting. If you can't keep your hands to yourself stay at home or talk to a doctor. Why the F should it be anyone else responsibility to have to stop you from doing something so awful?

The only one who can prevent a rape from happening is the rapist

Seanafitz

Pokiedots wrote: »

Sorry?
You take precautions, like using a condom, against getting pregnant because sperm in its natural state is a method of impregnating

You take precautions, like using an umbrella when it rains, to avoid getting wet because rain naturally makes things wet

You don't take precautions against getting raped because it is no ones natural state or primary function to rape another

I find the idea of someone claiming they were provoked into raping someone else or not prevented from raping someone disgusting. If you can't keep your hands to yourself stay at home or talk to a doctor. Why the F should it be anyone else responsibility to have to stop you from doing something so awful?

The only one who can prevent a rape from happening is the rapist

Faith mildly restored in humanity

up for anything

So all that time Nick Ross was presenting Crimewatch and reconstructions he was really thinking things like ah well she was wearing a mini and was therefore asking for it. Cnut. :mad:

Amirani

Pokiedots wrote: »

Sorry?
You take precautions, like using a condom, against getting pregnant because sperm in its natural state is a method of impregnating

You take precautions, like using an umbrella when it rains, to avoid getting wet because rain naturally makes things wet

You don't take precautions against getting raped because it is no ones natural state or primary function to rape another

Do you take precautions against being murdered or robbed? Do you have an alarm on your house or your car?

Esoteric_

Gin77 wrote: »

Aren't who women coerced into sex also rape victims?
So therefore people who pimp women for sex are rapists.
Are teenage boys who urge girls into having sex rapists?
And also the girl who doesn't want to but feel obliged as shes ends up at some fella's house.
I have daughters I worry about this stuff.

It depends on how you define coercion.

Just saying 'Ah feck it,' and giving in to what the other person wants wouldn't generally be considered rape.

Feeling like you've been completely backed into a corner and fear for your safety if you don't have sex, or feeling as though you have absolutely no option but to give in to what the other person wants - yeah, that'd be classed as rape.

leggo

This black-and-white view that so many have of rape leads to a lack of caution being taken in the long run, though, which could ultimately lead to some rapes that could've been prevented. A lot of women that I know, though, are fortunately extremely cautious about this stuff (making sure they stay in a public, well-lit place when leaving a pub, only getting in taxis with known taxi drivers, not winding up or provoking lads who are giving them the creeps etc).

People need to realise that those who urge caution AREN'T blaming the victim, aside from the few radical nutcases out there. It's never their fault that they were so terribly unlucky to encounter someone that depraved. But, please, can we also not let this whole 'people should be allowed do what they want' attitude prevail, either? It's not helpful. They should, but doing so can lead to bad things because the world isn't fair. So urging caution is only a positive.

Amirani

leggo wrote: »

This black-and-white view that so many have of rape leads to a lack of caution being taken in the long run, though, which could ultimately lead to some rapes that could've been prevented. A lot of women that I know, though, are fortunately extremely cautious about this stuff (making sure they stay in a public, well-lit place when leaving a pub, only getting in taxis with known taxi drivers, not winding up or provoking lads who are giving them the creeps etc).

People need to realise that those who urge caution AREN'T blaming the victim, aside from the few radical nutcases out there. It's never their fault that they were so terribly unlucky to encounter someone that depraved. But, please, can we also not let this whole 'people should be allowed do what they want' attitude prevail, either? It's not helpful. They should, but doing so can lead to bad things because the world isn't fair. So urging caution is only a positive.

This is exactly my belief.

Seanafitz

NiallSparky wrote: »

Do you take precautions against being murdered or robbed? Do you have an alarm on your house or your car?

To protect your belongings yes you get an alarm ... But do you take precautions against rape? Why should women when men don't ? Caus it's mainly men who rape women .. And it's not the woman's fault because she can't ask a man to rape her ?? And sometimes she physically can not stop him ?? Tell me that's fair? Tell me she should have took precautions?? I dare you , because there is no precautions to take ?? And if you can come up with a few ill gladly have a read because I'd like to avoid being raped in the future if ye don't mind

Pokiedots

NiallSparky wrote: »

Do you take precautions against being murdered or robbed? Do you have an alarm on your house or your car?

I could lock my car and house and alarm them to the hilt, if that is how I choose to act, but if one day I didn't put the alarm on in my house I am not asking anyone to rob my house, it wouldn't be giving anyone permission to do so and it certainly would be the person who robbed my house's fault that I got robbed

Esoteric_

Tbh I hate when people say that you should take precautions against being raped.

The majority of rape victims know/knew their attacker. It's not the 'man grabbing a woman down a dark alley way' scenario the majority of the time. Men and women are more likely to be raped by somebody they know.

jill_valentine

Look, if what a woman wore was really a deciding factor, Pacific or jungle nations - where women wear little or nothing - would have leagues more rape than Islamic ones, where the whole body is hidden. And since that's not at all the case, it's a moot bloody point.

Unless you earnestly believe that what a woman wears turns an otherwise decent bloke into an instant rapist, then what she was wearing could only possibly have had some bearing on whether or not he raped her or somebody else. In which case, it's still a moot point. There was still a rapist - a rape still happened.

What she was wearing, and what you think of it, is completely irrelevant. That's why we all roll our bloody eyes so hard when it comes up, it's nothing to do with anything in the first place. It's neither here nor there.

The focus of discussion about rape shouldn't CONSTANTLY hover around the woman's behaviour or dress. It's the guy who raped her who created a rape. So how about - just the once - in a conversation about rape, we spend more time talking about the rapist, and his circumstances and choices, rather than the victim and hers?

Let's go mad altogether and give that a try, eh?