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Child Item

Homeless man reported dead - Josef Pavelka (RIP).

Niall_G

A man died in Thompson's Lane (behind Supermacs) last night and Clare FM are reporting it is Joseph Pavelka, one of our famous toilet dwellers. A sad end - I passed him and Peter earlier yesterday evening on the way to dinner which puts it in an awful context.

I was sure there was a thread on the Clare forum at the time of their initial court case (about a month ago), but I can't find anything now. Am I just dreaming? May he RIP.

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Lady Chatterton

http://clare.fm/news/gardai-investigate-death-man-ennis

May Josef Pavelka rest in peace.

Precious flower

I use to see him most mornings when I went through town to work, him and a few other men with him. Poor man, awful way to go.

It's such a pity his life had to end that way. R.I.P.

babygirlz

Omg that's awful.
Do they know how he died? So sad, may he rest in peace x

Bench Press

sad end, chronic alcoholic god help him

Lady Chatterton

Obviously we aren't aware of the exact circumstances but it's a terribly sad case.

Only three weeks ago a representative from the 'Homeless Education and Learning Project' in Ennis highlighted Josef and Peter's blight.

“I fear for them. They will die if the rules aren’t changed to allow them avail of statutory services. Josef has health issues and sleeping in a toilet will only make it worse.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/two-homeless-men-living-in-ennis-public-toilet-will-die-without-help-1.1357607

Balagan

May Josef Pavelka rest in peace. Everything seemed to be going from bad to worse and, sadly, the recent publicity brought results that weren't all good.
http://www.clare.fm/news/joseph-pavelka-faces-prospect-prison

Mr. G

The poor guy, may he rest in peace. Podcast of him on clare fm:

http://www.clare.fm/music/Morning%20Focus

Lady Chatterton

Pat Kenny carried a report a few weeks ago on his radio show about Josef and Peter.

This morning, there was a report from Brian O'Connell who met with Peter last night to speak to him about his friends passing

.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/today-with-pat-kenny/podcasts/

Tragic end as homeless man who lived in toilet found dead

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/tragic-end-as-homeless-man-who-lived-in-toilet-found-dead-29244139.html

8mv

Very Sad. I knew Joseph and Peter from being around the town most days and found them to be reletively harmless and in a pitiable situation. I recently had more official dealings with them and they both went up in my estimations. It was obvious that any money given to them was going straight to some off-licence.

Afollower

There is one off licence in Ennis notorious for selling drink to misfortunes such as Joseph and Piotr no matter what state they are in and not always during legal hours either. I wonder if those people will pause for thought now. May his soul be at peace now.

Afollower

There is a vigil of rememberance tonight at the laneway where Joseph died at 7 pm.

jimgoose

The misfortunate man. May God mind him.

Palmach

Why did he stay when he was in such a bad way? I find it hard to drum up much sympathy for the guy because his drinking caused his end. There are more deserving people who received less help and publicity.

Lady Chatterton

Palmach wrote: »

I find it hard to drum up much sympathy for the guy because his drinking caused his end. There are more deserving people who received less help and publicity.

Alcoholism is a pretty deadly disease and it's hard to recover from it without proper intervention. I would imagine if I was homeless, I might drink to kill the pain and to keep warm, it is next to impossible to get a place in hostel accommodation if you drink and without a permanent address you can't avail of any State supports.

'Do not judge a man/woman until you have walked a mile in his/her shoes' as they say

Palmach

MrsD007 wrote: »

Alcoholism is a pretty deadly disease and it's hard to recover from it without proper intervention. I would imagine if I was homeless, I might drink to kill the pain and to keep warm, it is next to impossible to get a place in hostel accommodation if you drink and without a permanent address you can't avail of any State supports.

'Do not judge a man/woman until you have walked a mile in his/her shoes' as they say .

Should we take in everyone who has a drink problem and put them up? We are broke and we need to look after our own first. At the end of the day to drink alcohol is a choice and he made his choices.

Lady Chatterton

Palmach wrote: »

Should we take in everyone who has a drink problem and put them up? We are broke and we need to look after our own first. At the end of the day to drink alcohol is a choice and he made his choices.

No, but we should at least try to provide some basic help. What kind of society would we be if we ignored the weakest and most vulnerable?

I'll be the first admit that I'm not very familiar with Josef's circumstances but his case reminds me a little of the Irish men who went to work in Britain during the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s. Most of them sent money home to Ireland to support their parents or to help educate their siblings. Some of these men fell in to alcoholism (as men went to pubs to source building work and meet fellow Paddies). When they fell on hard times, many were too proud to come home and ended up homeless in Britain. Thankfully, the British for the most part tried to look after them.

Carry

MrsD007 wrote: »

No, but we should at least try to provide some basic help. What kind of society would we be if we ignored the weakest and most vulnerable?

I'll be the first admit that I'm not very familiar with Josef's circumstances but his case reminds me a little of the Irish men who went to work in Britain during the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s. Most of them sent money home to Ireland to support their parents or to help educate their siblings. Some of these men fell in to alcoholism (as men went to pubs to source building work and meet fellow Paddies). When they fell on hard times, many were too proud to come home and ended up homeless in Britain. Thankfully, the British for the most part tried to look after them.

Your are very forgiving, MrsD007, which I appreciate and understand.
But - apart from alcoholism being a disease which is hard to fight - there is no reason to take to the drink even if you are homeless.

As you said above about walking in another man's shoes - try to walk in another woman's high heels: I've been with a (Irish) man who was (and as far as I know still is) an alcoholic without any obvious reason. There is no way to help them, there is only the danger of co-dependency. But that's another story.

Homelessness is often not the cause but the consequence of the drink.
I didn't know this man, so I don't know his story. So I don't judge. But there are winos all over the world and not everyone is a decent person falling on hard times. Some are simply not capable to deal with an increasingly complicated world - or maybe just don't bother and face reality.

Being in a foreign country where you don't know your way around and don't speak the language properly, especially in a country like Ireland where everything revolves around who knows who and what, certainly didn't help.

Dying like this is unmeasurably sad, but in a way consequent. I hope he was at least so spaced out that he didn't feel the loneliness and pain.

Claregirl

I'm surprised no one linked to the previous thread which details a lot of concern for these two men during the previous cold winters and the help extended to them by the people of clare

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055791214&page=5

I too have had experience with an alcoholic and unfortunately it is virtually impossible to help those who won't help themselves while it is very sad that this happened it was also sadly inevitable.

Jim Martin

MrsD007 wrote: »

No, but we should at least try to provide some basic help. What kind of society would we be if we ignored the weakest and most vulnerable?

I'll be the first admit that I'm not very familiar with Josef's circumstances but his case reminds me a little of the Irish men who went to work in Britain during the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s. Most of them sent money home to Ireland to support their parents or to help educate their siblings. Some of these men fell in to alcoholism (as men went to pubs to source building work and meet fellow Paddies). When they fell on hard times, many were too proud to come home and ended up homeless in Britain. Thankfully, the British for the most part tried to look after them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQhXn3I04jc
Mod Edit to embed the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQhXn3I04jc

Lady Chatterton

Men of Arlington is a brilliant documentary Jim, I've seen it before but I'm going to watch it again. Thanks for posting it!

Palmach

MrsD007 wrote: »

No, but we should at least try to provide some basic help. What kind of society would we be if we ignored the weakest and most vulnerable?
.

The most vulnerable is the most over used and hackneyed phrase in this country. We are overly generous with the public purse as it stands. People who come to live in Ireland should be told that they are welcome but there are no free lunches. He made up a cock and bull story about living in a toilet to gain sympathy and no doubt more dosh to drink.

Brennans Row

Palmach wrote: »

The most vulnerable is the most over used and hackneyed phrase in this country. We are overly generous with the public purse as it stands. People who come to live in Ireland should be told that they are welcome but there are no free lunches. He made up a cock and bull story about living in a toilet to gain sympathy and no doubt more dosh to drink.

Those few lines you wrote, express a meanness in human compassion.

Stop hacking on the death of this misfortunate man and let him rest in peace.

Lady Chatterton

Palmach wrote: »

The most vulnerable is the most over used and hackneyed phrase in this country. We are overly generous with the public purse as it stands. People who come to live in Ireland should be told that they are welcome but there are no free lunches. He made up a cock and bull story about living in a toilet to gain sympathy and no doubt more dosh to drink.

"Don’t sneer at the man who’s down today,
Unless you have felt the blow
That caused his fall – or felt the shame
That only the fallen know.
You may be strong – but still the blows
That were his – if dealt to you
In the self same way – at the self same time
Might cause you to stagger too".

Palmach

Brennans Row wrote: »

Those few lines you wrote, express a meanness in human compassion.

Stop hacking on the death of this misfortunate man and let him rest in peace.

If we took in all the drunks from Eastern Europe we'd sink. This guy lied about livelong in a toilet, got lots of help but went on drinking. There are people with sick family members including kids who get less help. A bit of perspective other than maudlin ochón ochón wailing an handwringing would help the issue.

Lady Chatterton

Palmach wrote: »

If we took in all the drunks from Eastern Europe we'd sink. This guy lied about livelong in a toilet, got lots of help but went on drinking. There are people with sick family members including kids who get less help.

I have to disagree, one of the most popular and best supported charitable organisations in Co. Clare, is the Clare Crusaders Clinic, they do wonderful work providing services for children with serious illness, developmental delay, disability etc.

Balagan

There are so many issues thrown up by lack of habitual residency and whether someone who doesn't have it and therefore cannot access basic services (a roof over their head, food, medical care etc.,) should be allowed to stay in the country at all. To deport them may seem like punishment but perhaps it would be the kindest thing to do if the alternative is to remain in some kind of limbo? It is such an emotive subject that it is difficult to have a calm discussion about it.

Those without habitual residency who remain here can end up getting uncoordinated help. Some of it will be helpful and some of it, while definitely kindly intentioned, can be very damaging.

There must hardly be an adult in this country who doesn't know someone with either drug or alcohol addiction but how many of us have the knowledge, skill and clear thinking to steer absolutely clear of being in a codependency situation? It is a tough tough process to encourage someone down the road to rehab and maintain the distance and refuse the pleading. Only very healthy and strong people can do it and often the people closest to alcoholics are, unfortunately, neither, either because they have been worn down by the situation or because they may have similiar difficulties themselves. It takes professionals and when you are outside the system you have no access to professionals. Were such a person to break a leg, it would be unthinkable to let them lay broken without professional medical care and let good intentioned people with little or no medical/surgical knowledge set about treating it. Why would we think it okay to do the same with someone broken by alcoholism?

Without uncoordinated help from government bodies, people who remain here and are outside the system are extremely vulnerable. Organizations/charities should bear that in mind. Judges should bear it in mind. Journalists and photographers should bear it in mind. People who give charity in the form of cash should bear it in mind.

As I said, it is a very difficult subject to discuss, especially at the moment while Mr. Pavelka's body has not been buried. There are real and difficult issues which need to be discussed but perhaps best left until this man has been laid to rest.

Carry

Balagan wrote: »

There are so many issues thrown up by lack of habitual residency and whether someone who doesn't have it and therefore cannot access basic services (a roof over their head, food, medical care etc.,) should be allowed to stay in the country at all. To deport them may seem like punishment but perhaps it would be the kindest thing to do if the alternative is to remain in some kind of limbo? It is such an emotive subject that it is difficult to have a calm discussion about it.

This is the EU. Citizens of the EU are allowed to be homeless wherever they want. That sounds flippant, but it's the law. You can't 'deport' them, a word that has a very bad taste to it anyway.
However, if he wanted to go back to his native country, he should have got all the help he needed.

Balagan wrote: »

As I said, it is a very difficult subject to discuss, especially at the moment while Mr. Pavelka's body has not been buried. There are real and difficult issues which need to be discussed but perhaps best left until this man has been laid to rest.

Why? Where is the difference if this man is buried or not? The issues don't change after a burial, they can and should be discussed anytime, preferably now and by people who are in charge and especially with the intention to find a solution so that these things won't happen again.

Charity as practised in Ireland is not a solution it's just make-up over an inadequate social system which relies on the random goodwill of people. It should be the duty of a government to look after all it's citizens (and yes, I mean non-Irish citizens, too!) - and not only after the fat cats.

maiden

While it is terrible that any person should die alone in a laneway, these guys were a nuisance! <Mod snip>

The pissed up against shop windows while customers were inside, they terrified a lady coming out of a shop demanding money, i could go on and on! They were alcoholics but were <Mod snip > too!

And as far as know every agency in the town has been involved with these guys at some stage and they were living in the hostel but there is only so much anyone can do!