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Does Ireland still need an army?

HavingCrack

I'm interested to see what everyone thinks about this. Does Ireland still require a full time standing army or is it an outdated concept? There's zero external threat to our territorial integrity and little internal threat that the guards aren't capable of dealing with. Costa Rica disbanded their armed forces in the 1940's and they exist in a far, far less stable region of the world then we do and it's turned out fine. I think we still need a navy and air corps for fisheries, search and rescue and drug patrols but the actual land army isn't needed in my opinion. So what does everyone think? scrap it complely? just have a reserve forc? etc

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Comments

Azure_sky

I voted yes but lets think about it. Before the 1916 and War of independence their was no Irish Army. It created itself organically due to a need and the will of the people. I'm sure the same would happen again but really who is going to invade us? The Rothschild family (etc)looking for their dosh back if we vote no? Still it gives people jobs and maintains good military training, just in case.

Milk & Honey

Sappa wrote: »

From when I remember he always had a new 5 series BMW,a load of holidays.
Short days starting at 8 finished at 4, got a masters in business plus a degree,everything covered down to a pencil,it's the add on perks they milk.
He was above captain and his pay was not crap,retired on a full pension early 40's and walked into a barristers job.

What do you mean walked into a barrister's job? You mean he applied to the Chief Justice for a call to the bar? Anyone who wants can do that. It doesn't mean they will make a fortune. Far from it.

mattjack

CruelCoin wrote: »

I remember that program on tv showing our "heroes" in green.
A single bullet went past their heads and there was mass panic. I've never seen such a poor reaction before.

"possible hostile contact ahead. 1 maybe 2 men, lets man the barricades with everything we got, and hope they just go away"

Completely ineffectual.

That our largest ship has 2 or 3 pea-shooters is laughable, and the recruiting poster shows them "assaulting" with pistols...

Our air force has nothing but training aircraft...Training for nothing more than to be glorified chauffeurs in the government jets.

,
And don't get me started on the ****ing equestrian division

Were we invaded, i doubt we would have enough stockpiles of ammunition to last more than a few days of hard fighting.

In its current form, the army is pointless, useless and an enormous money suck.

1. 1999
An Air Corps helicopter crashed in dense fog in County Waterford, resulting in the deaths of its four-man crew. The Dauphin helicopter burst into flames, after it crashed down into a large sand dune at Tramore beach. The crew members, who were in their late twenties or early thirties, have been named as Captain Dave O'Flaherty, from Lucan in Dublin; Captain Michael Baker, from Wexford; Sergeant Paddy Mooney, from Meath; and Corporal Niall Byrne, from Dublin.
The four were returning from a successful rescue mission.
[4]

2. On 16 December 1983, Private Patrick Kelly was killed in Derrada Woods, Ballinamore, along with Garda recruit Gary Sheehan. They were attempting to rescue a British businessman, Don Tidey, who had been kidnapped by the IRA.

3. Leading Seaman Michael Quinn, 27, from Drogheda, died in 1990 during an attempt to rescue a Spanish fishing vessel that ran aground in a storm in Bantry Bay ...

All things considered ,I think our Defences Forces do themselves justice.

MRnotlob606

i Think every country needs an Army

oppenheimer1

Three years later, and we still have an army.

doolox

An Army like we have is needed to counter internal as well as external threats. These come in many shapes and forms such as drugs and other goods smuggling, people trafficking, illegal immigrants etc.

There is also the IRA dissidents etc which could cause trouble again for the agents of the State. What would happen to impartial legislation and administration if our TD's and Judges were afraid for their lives in the absence of adequate security?

Other non-human threats come to mind like natural disasters, floods, civil disturbances, last ditch provision of public services such as transport, sanitation etc in the event of a strike etc. Electrical power also come to mind.

Having a separate disciplined body of people to perform essential engineering and sustaining activities for the government and apply physical force, however distasteful this may appear to the ordinary experiences of most people, is necessary. In the past Armies performed essential engineering and information gathering for their Governments. Ordinance Survey Mapping originated in the Army. Many of our roads, bridges etc had military origins.
Our medical, healthcare and policing services have had military origins and the present set up provides a necessary backup in times of emergency.

It is possible that , like Iceland, we could roll the whole lot up into a semi-military police force but this would detract from the unarmed and approacheable image of the present Garda Siochana, unlike the armed and hard exterior image of many continental Police Forces.

honey83

Ireland,please keep your Army especially the soldiers who look good with their shirts off! Thank you!

priorities

stoneill

Ah jasus - the army are great - leave them alone you big bully.

Latchy

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

They're still used for cash transits too.

Was on many of them to .

When I was in the Defence Forces back in the 70s/80 the strength was 15,000 full time PDF and roughly same number FCA , such was the need for the aid to the civil power at the time so it's sad to see the numbers reduced to a few thousand's with battalions disbanded ( 5th ,2nd batts recently ) as well as Barracks closed all over the country .A strong defence force should always be there to aid against subversives as well as aiding in any major natural catastrophe .

MRnotlob606

well they way the government are running the country its like their trying to destroy the army all together with closing all the barrack's ,http://www.thejournal.ie/government-confirms-closure-of-four-military-barracks-280012-Nov2011/

charlemont

You can never tell what the Brits will do in a century or two so its best to keep the Army.

Grayson

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

i Think every country needs an Army

Not really. There's that central american country that has none and it's really peaceful. Once they got rid of the army no-one wanted to invade and there were no more coups.

But in Ireland I think we do. Not a large one. But we still need an army. There are some jobs the army is better at than the police. Plus I wouldn't want the police doing those jobs either.

belcampprisoner

yes if the savage’ Irish peasants rise up against the bank

or gas pipelines or land or water taxes

SeanW

Yes, keep the army. Deploy it to Limerick and Broombridge train station in Dublin (or whats left of it)

Praetorian Saighdiuir

SeanW wrote: »

Yes, keep the army. Deploy it to Limerick and Broombridge train station in Dublin (or whats left of it)

Whoa, whoa, whoa there Nelly!

They are not that well trained!

shankespony

Can we change the thread to do we still need politicians?

Yitzhak Rabin

This question seems to crop up all the time on boards. Disbanding the army would definitely be a very poor decision. Apart from the fact the entire defence budget is only €677m which is a drop in the ocean in terms of spending, particularly when you compare it to say Health which is around 14 billion, or social protection which comes in at over 20 billion.

For that amount I think Ireland gets a good bang for its buck.

Take 2011 for example:

There were 236 Explosive Ordnance Disposal callouts. 54 of those were viable lethal IEDs. That's alot of potential damage to people and property that was prevented. That figure also includes old unexploded munitions, explosives and dangerous chemicals

There was more than 2,000 Cash in Transit operations and 127 high security prisoner escorts.

3,000 soldiers deployed during VIP visits, such as when Queen Elizebeth and Obama came. The army also secures the states Vital Installations 24hrs a day; the central bank, Portloaise prison, government buildings etc.

The navy is constantly conducting fisheries protection, a multi billion euro industry. There was 1,300 boardings in 2011. They've seized 1.7Bn in illegal drugs in the last 5 years.

The DF has deployed to over 70 countries from Afghanistan, to Mali, to Liberia to Kosovo to Chad and Lebanon since 1958. There have been over 63,000 individual tours of duty in the name of peace for this country. People don't realise the importance of these missions and the prestige that it brings the country. Not to mention the 86 soldiers who paid the ultimate price for peace.

The DF also supports the government in crises such as the cold snap and flooding in 2011. Around 3,500 soldiers and 1,100 vehicles deployed providing vital service such as transporting medical personnel and equipment. Clearing roads and helping farmers with livestock. They also regularly deploy to assist in containing wildfires. The air corps dropped 1 and a half million litres of water on gorse fires in Donegal in 2011.

The air corps also conducts regular live-saving air ambulance missions. 71 people can thank the pilots of the DF for getting them to hospitals when they were critically ill. The air corps also provide top security cover for gardai flying the garda helicopter. The air corps also got civilians out of Libya when war broke out there.

I also don't buy the argument that this job should be given to a paramilitary police force. If you look at the cost argument alone, a professionally trained private soldier is a hell of alot cheaper to pay than an armed policeman. The army is also extremely flexible, can be called up at immediate notice and will do what it is told.

So I think providing all that for about 0.5% of the budget is well worth the expense.

Norwesterner

Disband the lot.
Costa Rica borders some of the most dangerous nations on Earth and doesn't have an Army. It's also a major drug-transit country.
We've no need for it.
No threat of any invasion, and even if there was it would be Ra-heads and assorted homegrown militia doing the fighting as it's always been.
The Chief of Staff of our Defence Forces is paid more than the Chief of Staff of the US Army.
(Our Govts way of preventing any military coups), This is morally reprehensible.
It's a huge bloated drain on taxpayers, serves no real purpose (private security guards paid by Banks can guard cash transits).
And a voluntary armed militia (such as Territorial Army) can br trained if any threat arises.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Norwesterner wrote: »

Disband the lot.
Costa Rica borders some of the most dangerous nations on Earth and doesn't have an Army. It's also a major drug-transit country.
We've no need for it.
No threat of any invasion, and even if there was it would be Ra-heads and assorted homegrown militia doing the fighting as it's always been.
The Chief of Staff of our Defence Forces is paid more than the Chief of Staff of the US Army.
(Our Govts way of preventing any military coups), This is morally reprehensible.
It's a huge bloated drain on taxpayers, serves no real purpose (private security guards paid by Banks can guard cash transits).
And a voluntary armed militia (such as Territorial Army) can br trained if any threat arises.

LOL, Norwesterner for El presidente.

clashburke

Norwesterner wrote: »

Disband the lot.
Costa Rica borders some of the most dangerous nations on Earth and doesn't have an Army. It's also a major drug-transit country.
We've no need for it.
No threat of any invasion, and even if there was it would be Ra-heads and assorted homegrown militia doing the fighting as it's always been.
The Chief of Staff of our Defence Forces is paid more than the Chief of Staff of the US Army.
(Our Govts way of preventing any military coups), This is morally reprehensible.
It's a huge bloated drain on taxpayers, serves no real purpose (private security guards paid by Banks can guard cash transits).
And a voluntary armed militia (such as Territorial Army) can br trained if any threat arises.

guard them with what, sticks? we couldn't give private security access to gun like the PDF use during cash in transit!!

Norwesterner

And as regards putting out gorse fires or gritting roads...we have an Army of unemployed doing nothing.
Bring in National Service for the long term unemployed.
But not military....instead environmental, social or community based work for one year in return for dole.
If I was long term I'd jump at the chance.
Keeping a standing Army to put out the odd gorse fire is ludicrous.
For the record, I've no problem with the Air Force and Navy being kept untouched (or even expanded for sea rescue etc)

Norwesterner

clashburke wrote: »

guard them with what, sticks? we couldn't give private security access to gun like the PDF use during cash in transit!!

Armed private security guards, paid for and insured by the Banks.
it's their money ffs.
This is the norm in the majority of countries.
I've seen these armed private guards in all the countries I've visited. Saw some carring M16s in Latin America and the U.S. Pistols and shotguns in Spain.
This is not the taxpayers responsibility to guards the money of private banks.
That should come from their own profits.
Ireland does everything arseways.

tdv123

Wouldn't it save the country a lot of money if they scraped the army & just let illegal paramilitaries protect us if needed?

Yitzhak Rabin

Norwesterner wrote: »

Armed private security guards, paid for and insured by the Banks.
it's their money ffs.
This is the norm in the majority of countries.
I've seen these armed private guards in all the countries I've visited. Saw some carring M16s in Latin America and the U.S. Pistols and shotguns in Spain.
This is not the taxpayers responsibility to guards the money of private banks.
That should come from their own profits.
Ireland does everything arseways.

The banks pay for CITs from the army.

Jawgap

Militaries provide contingency........we're never going to suffer an external attack but you still need a problem solving force to deal with incidents and events that defy regular planning and preparedness processes.

Plus a battalion of peacekeepers does more to enhance the countries rep abroad than any bunch of politicians engaging in plastic paddywhackery in the Oval Office.

Norwesterner

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

The banks pay for CITs from the army.

Good. Then they can pay for private guards instead.
If an IDF soldier is wounded or killed in a transit robbery...who picks up the tab?
Why are soldiers and gardai protecting money for the bank, when they have the money to provide their own security.
Whats next? Soldiers outside nightclubs?

Norwesterner

Countries with no Army that have yet to collapse in anarchy.
Andorra.
CostaRica.
Liechenstein.
Marshall Islands.
Saint Lucia.
Federated States of Micronesia.
Monaco.
Solomon Islands.
Iceland.
and surprisingly......some pretty dangerous spots.
Haiti.
Panama.
Mauritius.

All perfectly able to maintain order, deliver cash transits and even put out the odd gorse fire.

We waste between 1.5 and 2 billion dollars per-annum for vanity basically.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Norwesterner wrote: »

We waste between 1.5 and 2 billion dollars per-annum for vanity basically.

Link to costs please.

bnt

I think Ireland needs a bigger army, but not for the reasons you might think. They need to put together some "press gangs" to patrol the streets of the larger towns and cities, sweeping up the homeless and the skangers, and giving them something to do. Three square meals a day, free healthcare, physical training, and a paycheck - the price of which is serving your country in whatever capacity it needs. It might be civil defence, emergency response, ditch digging, or even as extras in the next epic adventure to be filmed here.

PS: and bring in some American NCOs to run the platoons. Some no-nonsense types with no ambitions towards the Officer class.

You can say what you like about the US military, but it's done a good job of keeping many young people off the streets, out of the gangs, and clear of drugs. (Not perfectly, of course, but pretty well.)

Yitzhak Rabin

Norwesterner wrote: »

Countries with no Army that have yet to collapse in anarchy.
Andorra.
CostaRica.
Liechenstein.
Marshall Islands.
Saint Lucia.
Federated States of Micronesia.
Monaco.
Solomon Islands.
Iceland.
and surprisingly......some pretty dangerous spots.
Haiti.
Panama.
Mauritius.

All perfectly able to maintain order, deliver cash transits and even put out the odd gorse fire.

We waste between 1.5 and 2 billion dollars per-annum for vanity basically.

Where you getting your figures from? The defence budget for 2013 is 677 million.

Also Haiti currently has over 8,000 UN peacekeepers deployed there (including a few from Ireland), so I wouldn't necessarily be using them as an example of stability.

I outlined a raft of additional roles that the DF undertakes in addition to the security of the state, who would you have do them instead, and why considering soldiers are the lowest paid of all public sector employees.