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The sex myth

Three Seasons

The sex myth is a book written by Doctor Brook Magnanti. In it she details numerous myths related to sex. One of them being that the number of women who are "trafficked" into sex work is grossly over estimated. Only a handful of cases of "trafficking" we're found to be taking place in Britain and Germany after large scale operations by police forces were instigated. This is something I've intuitively felt for a long time now.

What sex myths do you believe are propagated by the media and various organisations?

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Henlars67

I was in a pub once where a hen party had scorecards and would hold up a rating for each man who walked passed their table, which was every man in the pub at some stage as they were next the toilets.

Most men got groped or had their arse slapped.

I suppose most people would class it as innocent fun but imagine it was a group of lads on a stag night doing the same to every woman who passed by.

tritium

Rosy Posy wrote: »

This attitude makes my blood boil. It is precisely this line of thinking that creates a rape culture in our society that manifests in teenage rapists posting photos of their crimes on Facebook, and rape victims taking their own lives because of the stigma attached to them.

How about this for a sex myth- the myth of the rapist hiding down an alley with a knife. Most rapists are known to their victims. Sexual assault does not have to be violent. Having sex with someone who is unconcious or too drunk to give consent is rape. Just because someone has slept with you before or has consented at an earlier time does not give you carte blanche to have sex with them again without obtaining their consent.

The reason that rape and sexual assault is so shockingly underreported is because of the societal attitude that casts aspersions on the victim, as well as the social stigma that comes attached, which filters down through the system to result in the abysmally low conviction rate for rapists.

Like another poster here, I find the one in four statistic low. I would have put it closer to three in four, especially if you take war zones into account. What makes you so sure of yourself as to presume to question the statistic? Most rape survivors don't advertise the fact. Many will only share their story with a handful of trusted confidants. Many more will tell no one. Due in part to having to come up against the kind of attitude displayed by you. Fwiw, I don't think you are a rapist, misogynist or monster, merely a product of our society. I hope that you can be open enough to do a little research in this area, adjust your attitude, then try to change someone else's.

Wow, where to start. Maybe by pointing out the irony of attacking a poster with a stream of unsubstantiated assertions and then suggesting they do some research. Tell us, why do you think your three in four assertion has any more credibility then the less than one in four the poster implied?

I don't mean this as a dig at you, but the biggest problem in debating issues like this is everyone want their opinion to be fact, and shouts down any dissent. The reality is there are complex reasons for the type of society we have today, and to simplistically throw out terms like rape culture goes nowhere to understanding them!

IM0

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I think trivialising sexual assault is rape culture.

Exactly what can be done to my body against my will before you'd consider it sexual assault?

nothing after you say no, simple.

IM0

saying 1 in 4 means precisely fuck all if you dont say where the sample data was taken. for example, taking it during a war somewhere in a third world country = very high number no doubt, taking your data in the middle of dublin will probably show something else, and like wise somewhere in India probably different again.

stats like this are pretty much useless, and are only collected to further an ajenda :rolleyes:

the ajenda being if it can be 'shown' by stats that sexual assault is so high, then the people making the stats [the organisations which have a part to play in 'fixing' the 'victims'] use this to lobby for more funding to keep themselves in a job and getting funding. apply the same logic to most chariatible 'NGO's too.

--Kaiser--

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I think trivialising sexual assault is rape culture.

Exactly what can be done to my body against my will before you'd consider it sexual assault?

You are the one trivialising sexual assault by saying that a pinch in the ass qualifies. I think it's an insult to woman who have been sexually assaulted.

I've been groped, had my ass pinched and slapped by women, I've had all the buttons ripped off my shirt by a hen party. Would you say that hen nights are part of a rape culture? Or that they are just drunk, rowdy women being idiots?

Henlars67

Rosy Posy wrote: »

This attitude makes my blood boil. It is precisely this line of thinking that creates a rape culture in our society that manifests in teenage rapists posting photos of their crimes on Facebook, and rape victims taking their own lives because of the stigma attached to them.

How about this for a sex myth- the myth of the rapist hiding down an alley with a knife. Most rapists are known to their victims. Sexual assault does not have to be violent. Having sex with someone who is unconcious or too drunk to give consent is rape. Just because someone has slept with you before or has consented at an earlier time does not give you carte blanche to have sex with them again without obtaining their consent.

The reason that rape and sexual assault is so shockingly underreported is because of the societal attitude that casts aspersions on the victim, as well as the social stigma that comes attached, which filters down through the system to result in the abysmally low conviction rate for rapists.

Like another poster here, I find the one in four statistic low. I would have put it closer to three in four, especially if you take war zones into account. What makes you so sure of yourself as to presume to question the statistic? Most rape survivors don't advertise the fact. Many will only share their story with a handful of trusted confidants. Many more will tell no one. Due in part to having to come up against the kind of attitude displayed by you. Fwiw, I don't think you are a rapist, misogynist or monster, merely a product of our society. I hope that you can be open enough to do a little research in this area, adjust your attitude, then try to change someone else's.

what attitude? said that I find it absurdly high, if it's accurate then it's absolutely shocking, that is why I question it.

I didn't state it as a fact.

cheers for the reply though.

It's much better than any reply I've gotten when I previously asked it.

Three Seasons

Czarcasm wrote: »

The fact that most of her blog (which I've followed for a number of years, and read her books, and watched her interviews), is mostly based around promoting herself and her "sex sells" stories rather than any peer reviewed papers published in any scientific journals. She's peddling myth and personal opinion as if it were scientific fact, mixed in with a few salacious details of her previous sexual history, mixed in with pure myth and fantasy.

She no doubt is highly educated, but a good education doesn't correlate with being a good scientist. There are god botherers who call themselves scientists too, and would be far more qualified than Ms. Magnati. Does that mean we should take their word over Ms. Magnati? Of course not, not without a healthy dose of scepticism, which is why you have to delve further into the background of any research, do your own research so to speak before you form an opinion one way or the other, not just take the first opinion that comes to hand because it agrees with yours.

Who says I agree with everything she says???

Czarcasm

Three Seasons wrote: »

She's highly accomplished in numerous disciplines. What reason do you have to doubt her scientific competence other than her choice of swear words?

The fact that most of her blog (which I've followed for a number of years, and read her books, and watched her interviews), is mostly based around promoting herself and her "sex sells" stories rather than any peer reviewed papers published in any scientific journals. She's peddling myth and personal opinion as if it were scientific fact, mixed in with a few salacious details of her previous sexual history, mixed in with pure myth and fantasy.

She no doubt is highly educated, but a good education doesn't correlate with being a good scientist. There are god botherers who call themselves scientists too, and would be far more qualified than Ms. Magnati. Does that mean we should take their word over Ms. Magnati? Of course not, not without a healthy dose of scepticism, which is why you have to delve further into the background of any research, do your own research so to speak before you form an opinion one way or the other, not just take the first opinion that comes to hand because it agrees with yours.

Lingua Franca

I think trivialising sexual assault is rape culture.

Exactly what can be done to my body against my will before you'd consider it sexual assault?

smash

Lingua Franca wrote: »

From the same guy who objected to the term rape culture, ladies and gentlemen! :rolleyes:

What's your point here?

You think a pinch on the ass is 'rape culture'?

Lingua Franca

smash wrote: »

I don't condone this kind of activity but those who consider it a sexual assault need their head checked to be honest. It's just someone acting the dick.

From the same guy who objected to the term rape culture, ladies and gentlemen! :rolleyes:

trickymicky

antodeco wrote: »

That an empty packet of crisps and a hair bobbin is perfect contraception

So when is she due ???:)

smash

sbsquarepants wrote: »

But that being said, it very much weakens the case of those who carry on like an slap on the ass is every bit as serious as a gang rape.

I don't condone this kind of activity but those who consider it a sexual assault need their head checked to be honest. It's just someone acting the dick.

And hen parties... yea, a million times worse than a group of lads!

tritium

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's like saying a doctor doesn't know anything about a particular illness when they would have far more experience and knowledge about the illness than the person who suffers from it. The person who suffers from it only knows what it's like for them, the doctor will have seen far more patients present with the illness and have a much wider background knowledge of the illness.

that's a fairly poor analogy though- a doctor will spend years in dedicated study of their particular field as a scientific discipline, applying established analytical standards of proof. That's very different to what we see in this context. A doctor will also use the information provided by their patients to derive a diagnosis and treatment- again very different to the scenario here, where the 'patient' is often selectively ignored or dismissed.

There's too many links I could put here about her agenda, but let me at least present to you an article from thejournal.ie in which she puts forward her agenda-

http://www.thejournal.ie/former-belle-de-jour-concerned-about-irish-sex-workers-legislation-777305-Feb2013/

I'm unclear what this is meant to show? Basically she says that sex workers should have an input into hearings that will directly impact them. What's the issue? She actually specifically says that it would be preferable to get the view of Irish sex workers rather than her own non-local perspective. I don't really see much of an agenda at work here tbh. I dunno, I'm no expert on the woman so maybe you can give a better link...,

Quite ironic that you should put it that way when Ms. Magnati's career not only depends on people buying into her point of view, but also buying her books that ironically enough are based on bad science, personal opinion, and shìtty statistics while she tries to pass herself off nowadays as a scientist.

As I understand it she has a msc in epidemiology and a phd in forensic science. In those circumstances I think she's entitled to describe herself as a scientist!

Again im not a reader of her work but given the reputation she seems to have garnered with her initial literary work I suspect she could write about poo on a stick for a couple of books and still sell a healthy number of copies.

sbsquarepants

Three Seasons wrote: »

I've certainly had my ass and balls groped on countless occasions.

That's not including the number of times women have reversed their ass into my crotch to seduce me or glanced the back of their hand off my crotch.

Go on you irresistible divil you!:D

In my own personal experience women can be very touchy feely especially after a few drinks or when in a group. Take hen parties, i've been "assaulted" countless times by them, from just something like having my ass pinched to being seriously groped and stripped. I'd say practically every man above 20 or so has been at some stage. It is very much a double standard. If the genders were reversed you could easily be talking serious criminal charges.
But i suppose it's a lot less intimidating than the reverse ie a goup of drunken men all pawing at some girl. But that being said, it very much weakens the case of those who carry on like an slap on the ass is every bit as serious as a gang rape.

Three Seasons

Czarcasm wrote: »

To quote Helen Lewis, in her book review of "The Sex Myth" in The New Statesman-

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2012/04/review-sex-myth-brooke-magnanti

And check out Ms. Magnati's reply to an e-mail sent to her by another book reviewer here-

http://quietgirlriot.wordpress.com/2012/05/13/bad-science-a-review-of-the-sex-myth-by-brooke-magnanti/

Her "buy into my bullshìt, or go fcuk yourself" attitude to a critique of her work doesn't exactly bode well for her reputation as a "scientist" now, does it?

Scientist my àrse! :pac:

She's highly accomplished in numerous disciplines. What reason do you have to doubt her scientific competence other than her choice of swear words?

Czarcasm

Three Seasons wrote: »

Well according to doctor Brook Magnanti te evidence points strongly to the fact that 15 % of prostitutes are street walkers yet the only ones who seem to be questioned in so many "studies" are the street walkers and prostitutes in drug clinics. This makes the so called studies ridiculously biased and unscientific and not representative of the real world of prostitution.

To quote Helen Lewis, in her book review of "The Sex Myth" in The New Statesman-

If you’re going to be a smart arse – and she is, relentlessly – make sure you’re right.

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2012/04/review-sex-myth-brooke-magnanti

And check out Ms. Magnati's reply to an e-mail sent to her by another book reviewer here-

http://quietgirlriot.wordpress.com/2012/05/13/bad-science-a-review-of-the-sex-myth-by-brooke-magnanti/

Her "buy into my bullshìt, or go fcuk yourself" attitude to a critique of her work doesn't exactly bode well for her reputation as a "scientist" now, does it?

Scientist my àrse! :pac:

Lingua Franca

I would agree that's likely that the majority of sex workers work from home and advertise discreetly, and of course street workers and drugs clinics would be easiest for researchers to get to speak to prostitutes but if all the so called studies are ridiculously biased and unscientific and not representative of the real world of prostitution, where is she getting this figure of 15% from?

smash

Rosy Posy wrote: »

This attitude makes my blood boil. It is precisely this line of thinking that creates a rape culture in our society

This phrase makes my blood boil :rolleyes:

Three Seasons

Well according to doctor Brook Magnanti te evidence points strongly to the fact that 15 % of prostitutes are street walkers yet the only ones who seem to be questioned in so many "studies" are the street walkers and prostitutes in drug clinics. This makes the so called studies ridiculously biased and unscientific and not representative of the real world of prostitution.

Lingua Franca

tritium wrote: »

Like most things the myths heavily depend on interpretation. Depending on what agenda is being pursued the most favourable interpretation will be used. The sexual assault comments earlier in this thread is a good example- is a grope in a night club sexual assault? Possibly, possibly not depending on your view, but the interpretation will radically change the figures.

Indeed. I don't go to nightclubs, myself. Any time I've been groped it has been in public (extra humiliation on top of the invasion of my body). I was groped at the age of 14 by two grown men in a crowd at a concert. I was groped on the stree at the age of 30 by a teenager who ran up behind me and assaulted me.

People may have their own personal interpretations but the law is clear - sexual assault is touching someone in a sexual manner without their consent. My own interpretation matches the law.

I teach my children that no one is allowed to touch any part of their body without their consent. I'm not going to add the caveat "unless it's for a laugh, in which case brush it off as no big thing".

jaffacakesyum

Rosy Posy wrote: »

This attitude makes my blood boil. It is precisely this line of thinking that creates a rape culture in our society that manifests in teenage rapists posting photos of their crimes on Facebook, and rape victims taking their own lives because of the stigma attached to them.

How about this for a sex myth- the myth of the rapist hiding down an alley with a knife. Most rapists are known to their victims. Sexual assault does not have to be violent. Having sex with someone who is unconcious or too drunk to give consent is rape. Just because someone has slept with you before or has consented at an earlier time does not give you carte blanche to have sex with them again without obtaining their consent.

The reason that rape and sexual assault is so shockingly underreported is because of the societal attitude that casts aspersions on the victim, as well as the social stigma that comes attached, which filters down through the system to result in the abysmally low conviction rate for rapists.

Like another poster here, I find the one in four statistic low. I would have put it closer to three in four, especially if you take war zones into account. What makes you so sure of yourself as to presume to question the statistic? Most rape survivors don't advertise the fact. Many will only share their story with a handful of trusted confidants. Many more will tell no one. Due in part to having to come up against the kind of attitude displayed by you. Fwiw, I don't think you are a rapist, misogynist or monster, merely a product of our society. I hope that you can be open enough to do a little research in this area, adjust your attitude, then try to change someone else's.

Sadly, I fear raising the awareness of rape on this thread won't get you much agreement. I wonder if this will get much thanks..

folan

rainbow parties.

and those bracelets.

teenagers were apparently very sexually active back in my day.

wish one of them would have at least called me.

Czarcasm

tritium wrote: »

Like most things the myths heavily depend on interpretation. Depending on what agenda is being pursued the most favourable interpretation will be used. The sexual assault comments earlier in this thread is a good example- is a grope in a night club sexual assault? Possibly, possibly not depending on your view, but the interpretation will radically change the figures. Domestic violence is another example- is shouting at a partner domestic violence? Again it heavily changes the statistics depending on interpretation.

Where it becomes depressing is when groups pick and choose which interpretation they'll use this week. For example shouting may be domestic violence if it's a man shouting but not a woman 'being assertive'

I was right with you up until this bit-

In terms of the source I'm not sure why anyone would dismiss magniani out of hand. The fact she's a former sex worker should I'd imagine give her a far better insight than the many pious souls who bleat on about this issue without anything other than second hand knowledge.

It's like saying a doctor doesn't know anything about a particular illness when they would have far more experience and knowledge about the illness than the person who suffers from it. The person who suffers from it only knows what it's like for them, the doctor will have seen far more patients present with the illness and have a much wider background knowledge of the illness.

I'm also unaware (but open to correction) of any obvious wider agenda she's signed up to-

There's too many links I could put here about her agenda, but let me at least present to you an article from thejournal.ie in which she puts forward her agenda-

http://www.thejournal.ie/former-belle-de-jour-concerned-about-irish-sex-workers-legislation-777305-Feb2013/

to put it simply should a believe someone who's going to get paid for writing this stuff anyway, or someone with no relevant experience whose career depends on sustaining a particular view?

Quite ironic that you should put it that way when Ms. Magnati's career not only depends on people buying into her point of view, but also buying her books that ironically enough are based on bad science, personal opinion, and shìtty statistics while she tries to pass herself off nowadays as a scientist.

She's nothing but a snake oil saleswoman who makes Fifty Shades of Grey read like the National Geographic.

Rosy Posy

Henlars67 wrote: »

I find the 'stat' that 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted in some way to be absurdly high.

I once questioned it on twitter though and a few retweets later I had women from all over calling me a rapist, a rape apologist, a misogynist etc.

Surely that figure is untrue?

This attitude makes my blood boil. It is precisely this line of thinking that creates a rape culture in our society that manifests in teenage rapists posting photos of their crimes on Facebook, and rape victims taking their own lives because of the stigma attached to them.

How about this for a sex myth- the myth of the rapist hiding down an alley with a knife. Most rapists are known to their victims. Sexual assault does not have to be violent. Having sex with someone who is unconcious or too drunk to give consent is rape. Just because someone has slept with you before or has consented at an earlier time does not give you carte blanche to have sex with them again without obtaining their consent.

The reason that rape and sexual assault is so shockingly underreported is because of the societal attitude that casts aspersions on the victim, as well as the social stigma that comes attached, which filters down through the system to result in the abysmally low conviction rate for rapists.

Like another poster here, I find the one in four statistic low. I would have put it closer to three in four, especially if you take war zones into account. What makes you so sure of yourself as to presume to question the statistic? Most rape survivors don't advertise the fact. Many will only share their story with a handful of trusted confidants. Many more will tell no one. Due in part to having to come up against the kind of attitude displayed by you. Fwiw, I don't think you are a rapist, misogynist or monster, merely a product of our society. I hope that you can be open enough to do a little research in this area, adjust your attitude, then try to change someone else's.

[Deleted User]

Teenagers are at it like rabbit since the age of 13

Or

13year old girls are getting drunk and giving blow jobs all round and their doing it every weekend shock!!!! ( added interest if they are posh and from south Dublin, with naive parents.)

Three Seasons

I've certainly had my ass and balls groped on countless occasions.

That's not including the number of times women have reversed their ass into my crotch to seduce me or glanced the back of their hand off my crotch.

smcgiff

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Yes.

I'd say most people have been gropped at some stage - male and female.

When men get gropped by women it's probably not considered as offensive. I remember being more taken aback than outraged.

--Kaiser--

Merkin wrote: »

I think one of the most damaging sex myths that was propogated by religious institutions back in the day was that sex was somehow dirty or impure.

Sex is dirty.........if done right

tritium

Like most things the myths heavily depend on interpretation. Depending on what agenda is being pursued the most favourable interpretation will be used. The sexual assault comments earlier in this thread is a good example- is a grope in a night club sexual assault? Possibly, possibly not depending on your view, but the interpretation will radically change the figures. Domestic violence is another example- is shouting at a partner domestic violence? Again it heavily changes the statistics depending on interpretation.

Where it becomes depressing is when groups pick and choose which interpretation they'll use this week. For example shouting may be domestic violence if it's a man shouting but not a woman 'being assertive'

In terms of the source I'm not sure why anyone would dismiss magniani out of hand. The fact she's a former sex worker should I'd imagine give her a far better insight than the many pious souls who bleat on about this issue without anything other than second hand knowledge.

I'm also unaware (but open to correction) of any obvious wider agenda she's signed up to- to put it simply should a believe someone who's going to get paid for writing this stuff anyway, or someone with no relevant experience whose career depends on sustaining a particular view?