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THC has been legalised in Ireland Fri 12th Apr 2013

G Power

GW Pharmacy have been granted a licence to rip the Irish people by selling them THC extract from the female cannabis plant!!

Cannabis has no recorded deaths attributable to it but Sativex and Marinol do and our "government" are happy to sidestep the testing of this "new" drug and just bring it straight to shelf!! How much does that cost a huge UK pharma lobbyist these days I wonder??

Any self respecting recreational or medical user of cannabis or extract will have extremely little regard for the laws or lawmakers who after lying to us for over 50 years want to continue lying to us by "trying" to say GW pharmacies 100% THC is ok but what we can all grow for ourselves is not!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYsTmIzjkw

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G Power

IM0 wrote: »

do you usually posttabloid type headlines without giving any kind of source

no, it has been legalised, albeit for GW pharmacy only at this point.

I await how you keep it illegal while a pharma company can charge crazy prices for extracting what we can all extract at home for a fraction of the price.

Lenin Skynard

Here's another one for the googley-challenged.

http://www.thejournal.ie/cannabis-spray-ireland-865790-Apr2013/

Sergeant

G Power wrote: »

no, it has been legalised, albeit for GW pharmacy only at this point.

I await how you keep it illegal while a pharma company can charge crazy prices for extracting what we can all extract at home for a fraction of the price.

You can produce laboratory standard medication at home?

G Power

OldGoat wrote: »

Did you report a post? No? Their godlike power of peception must be having an offkilter day so.

I'd be more impressed if Jacobs got the right to produce THC laced biscuits, can't stand smoking the stuff anymore.

don't smoke it so, many many other ways of gettin it into ya like

Truncheon Rouge

ScumLord wrote: »

Its a step in the right direction anyway. If this drug proves successful it will be harder for the government to label cannabis as dangerous.

hmmm don't know about that.
if legalization is your goal then this could be quite the opposite.
.
IF it is the case as suggested above that the product is on the shelf due to lobbying and big bags of munnay then Im sure one of the terms of the contract was to keep the real stuff unavailable.

My name is URL

G Power wrote: »

no, it has been legalised, albeit for GW pharmacy only at this point.

I await how you keep it illegal while a pharma company can charge crazy prices for extracting what we can all extract at home for a fraction of the price.

Where are you getting that from? It hasn't been legalised, for anyone.

It has only been preliminarily approved for use by the Irish Medicines Board. They have nothing to do with deciding on changes to legislation.

mikom

Sergeant wrote: »

A pharmaceutical company producing a drug, paying researchers, carrying out trials and marketing the product isn't the same as some stoner rolling a spliff and listening to Pink Floyd.

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

Write that post while toking on one of your reefers did ya pal? :rolleyes:

*Blows cloud of vapor in posters general direction.
.
.

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

Fact is that the MS sufferer will be paying hundreds if not thousands to GW Pharma when they could grow the same thing at home on their windowbox for free.

Some MS sufferers will be paying, and some taxpayers will be helping out the MS sufferers who will be unable to pay.

From the UK..........

The spray is being sold to the NHS at the agreed price of £175 per 10ml bottle.
Where for the same amount of chemicals cannabis can be bought on the street for roughly £20-30, and grown at home by an individual for a couple of pounds.

In the US, where some states have medical marijuana dispensaries, dispensing high quality cannabis and some cannabis spray. The spray costs around $20 for 50ml, quite a large price differential.

So as you can see sativex in the UK is going to cost the tax payer vastly more than it should, thanks to monopoly rights. The extortionate price of sativex is going to deter health authorities from prescribing the much-needed drug to severely ill patients, and total use of the drug, that can have a huge benefit to patients, is going to be significantly reduced.

Is it any wonder the GW Pharmaceuticals are already turning over £30m and in profit despite large research and development costs and sales nowhere near potential?

The men in suits...........they steal your dreams and sell them back to you.

Sativex is super strong, concentrated cannabis. Nothing more, nothing less.

GW Pharmaceuticals would have you believe that it’s a “pharmaceutical” product because according to its research that’s what patients prefer. As the GW spokesman puts it, “It’s a pharmaceutical solution, formulated with the ability to deliver a precise dose and with stringent standards of quality, safety and efficacy”.

In fact, what GW does is grow high quality cannabis under pretty much the same conditions as most illegal growers. It uses clonal propagation to ensure consistent levels of cannabinoids. Lighting and hydroponic nutrition is computer controlled with automatic ventilation. It really is no different from the most sophisticated and efficient illegal cannabis farms.

The difference between these crops from legal and illegal growers is insignificant. It’s similar to buying your tomatoes from the supermarket or the farm shop.

GW takes its high quality cannabis, chops it up and makes a tincture by heating it under pressure with CO2 and then adding ethanol to precipitate an oil. Then, with the addition of a little peppermint oil to mask the taste and some preservative, the filtered liquid is packaged into tiny little aerosol bottles. Each spray delivers 2.7mg of THC and 2.5mg of CBD. What GW doesn’t tell you that it also contains all the other 100+ cannabinoids found in the plant, each of which has its own mechanism of action and effect. It also contains flavonoids, terpines and other compounds. Everything that is found in the plant.

It would be a mistake though to think that Sativex is anything different from the plant itself. It’s just been wrapped up in a marketing and physical package which has enabled stupid and cowardly politicians to accept it.

There is no honest or accurate way to describe Sativex except to say that it is cannabis. The Home Office is on the record as saying that “the future scheduling of this medicinal product will not affect the classification of cannabis” which is unambiguous evidence of an intention to deceive.
http://www.clear-uk.org/the-truth-about-sativex/

pastorbarrett

A move motivated by monetary gain for the parties concerned, but nonetheless one that implicitly concedes that the plant is of some medical value. A move in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

Decriminalize, regulate, make the necessary information widely available- enough of the nanny-state mentality.

G Power

Sergeant wrote: »

You can produce laboratory standard medication at home?

if you watch this 5 minute video of GW pharmacy producing hemp oil

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un5JSkNX5oQ

you may be interested in watching this 10 minute video showing how to do that same at home with the same techniques, chemical processes etc, not lab spec but provided you use clean utensils in a clean area it will be a damn sight cheaper to make your own

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv91dll4wS4

G Power

Truncheon Rouge wrote: »

hmmm don't know about that.
if legalization is your goal then this could be quite the opposite.
.
IF it is the case as suggested above that the product is on the shelf due to lobbying and big bags of munnay then Im sure one of the terms of the contract was to keep the real stuff unavailable.

if that was the case then some countries that have already licensed it wouldn't allow their people to grow between 2 - 5 plants per person

ScumLord

G Power wrote: »

the very fact they're bringing it in but insisting they're going to write the law so it's only ok for GW pharmacy to have anything to do with THC and continue to try criminalise people for growing or possession of what is now deemed a beneficial medicine will be enough for most people to go ahead and grow their own.

Just look at the amount of grows in Ireland since the head shop and now imagine what this move will do

Like it's already been pointed out, medical cannabis needs to come from a regulated source so there can be a guarantee of consistent strength. Growing in your back garden isn't really an option for some of the patients this drug will help either due to chronic pain or immobility.

This is a stepping stone, first stage will be the people that need the drug getting the relief they need. Stage two will be them giving out their being overcharged maybe forcing some relaxing of the restrictions on suppliers. Stage 3 will be the decimation of the anti cannabis argument that cannabis is dangerous because for the first time we'll have clear recorded evidence of hundreds if not thousands of people using it on a daily basis with minimal harmful side effects.

I would love to see Ireland get the jump on the rest of the world when it comes to legalisation. It's a real chance for us to get in first with hemp, medical and recreational production but it's not going to happen. Ireland will miss the boat on this one and instead of being a brand for high quality cannabis production we'll end up importing it when legalisation finally happens.

G Power

ScumLord wrote: »

Like it's already been pointed out, medical cannabis needs to come from a regulated source so there can be a guarantee of consistent strength. Growing in your back garden isn't really an option for some of the patients this drug will help either due to chronic pain or immobility.

This is a stepping stone, first stage will be the people that need the drug getting the relief they need. Stage two will be them giving out their being overcharged maybe forcing some relaxing of the restrictions on suppliers. Stage 3 will be the decimation of the anti cannabis argument that cannabis is dangerous because for the first time we'll have clear recorded evidence of hundreds if not thousands of people using it on a daily basis with minimal harmful side effects.

I would love to see Ireland get the jump on the rest of the world when it comes to legalisation. It's a real chance for us to get in first with hemp, medical and recreational production but it's not going to happen. Ireland will miss the boat on this one and instead of being a brand for high quality cannabis production we'll end up importing it when legalisation finally happens.

and like it's already been pointed out the cannabis GW pharmacy uses to produce their oil is for all intents and purposes the same as what can be grown at home. I myself have witnessed very recently someone growing 1 plant in a wardrobe with 7 x 20watt tesco CFL bulbs and getting 90grams of absolutely top quality bud from that one plant.

Admittedly it could take 5 - 10 plants every 3 weeks to produce enough oil to keep one or 2 people in good health. some people might see the licencing of a company to sell us what we can grow for ourselves as being enough of a reason to plant seeds themselves fcuk the begrudging government, big pharma, her majesty and uncle sam!!

Mr. CooL ICE

Sooo... when should I stick my balls in a microwave?

Kurtosis

I'd have thought some posters with such a keen interest in the topic would be able to get the facts straight.

It is not 100% THC, or the same as cannabis, it's a mix of two cannabis extracts, one high THC and one high CBD strain. I would doubt anyone is growing or using such a mix for recreational purposes.

THC has not been legalised (even this mix of THC and CBD has not been legalised), the Irish Medicines Board has given preliminary approval for a licence for a cannabis-based medicinal product. Cannabis and cannabis-based products are still effectively illegal under the Misuse of Drugs Act.

People are fooling themselves if they think this is an incremental step on the road to decriminalisation/legalisation of cannabis. This is not the same as cannabis, it is produced according to tight quality specifications and will be prescribed for very specific medical indications/conditions. There are other examples of medicines based on recreational drugs that have been around for years and yet they are still illegal for recreational use.

ScumLord

G Power wrote: »

and like it's already been pointed out the cannabis GW pharmacy uses to produce their oil is for all intents and purposes the same as what can be grown at home. I myself have witnessed very recently someone growing 1 plant in a wardrobe with 7 x 20watt tesco CFL bulbs and getting 90grams of absolutely top quality bud from that one plant.

You're still comparing apples and oranges. I've seen the set up in that place that produces the cannabis spray and it's a proper medical setup. They use a particular strain of the plant that they developed to be high in CBD and not high in THC like most recreational weed. You're paying for a guaranteed strain and have your consumer rights protected by going through legal channels.

some people might see the licencing of a company to sell us what we can grow for ourselves as being enough of a reason to plant seeds themselves fcuk the begrudging government, big pharma, her majesty and uncle sam!!

I can grow my own veg but I've no intention of doing so, there is a sizeable investment in growing your own not to mention the risk of prosecution.

Like with any new product, especially one where one company has cornered the market the product is going to be expensive. Once this has been proven to work more licenses can be granted and price will come down.

You're not not going to go from illegal to legal overnight, there's too much resistance there. It has to be done in small steps so as not to bring about panic in those that have had the evil drugs propaganda forced down their throats.

G Power

ScumLord wrote: »

You're still comparing apples and oranges. I've seen the set up in that place that produces the cannabis spray and it's a proper medical setup. They use a particular strain of the plant that they developed to be high in CBD and not high in THC like most recreational weed. You're paying for a guaranteed strain and have your consumer rights protected by going through legal channels.

I can grow my own veg but I've no intention of doing so, there is a sizeable investment in growing your own not to mention the risk of prosecution.

Like with any new product, especially one where one company has cornered the market the product is going to be expensive. Once this has been proven to work more licenses can be granted and price will come down.

You're not not going to go from illegal to legal overnight, there's too much resistance there. It has to be done in small steps so as not to bring about panic in those that have had the evil drugs propaganda forced down their throats.

they use a particular strain yes, a strain with a "fingerprint" in case they're stolen but this certainly puts an interesting spin on what you're trying to suggest

http://www.belowthelion.co.za/sativex-cannabis-mouth-spray/

The medicine is comprised of the two main chemicals found in the cannabis plant: delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and cannabidiol (CBD). It is distributed in a 10ml bottle (90 sprays) and one dosage (~0.11 ml) contains 2.7 mg of THC and 2.5 mg of CBD. According to GW Pharmateuticals, the engineered balance of cannabinoids, coupled with the fact that ingested cannabis is absorbed slower than when it is smoked, ensures that patients will not get high from Sativex.

so why not allow people to grow it themselves and bake with it, it's been well proven that eating it slows down the absorption rate and both heightens and extends the desired effect on the body and mind

The following is quoted from the Sativex website, describing the drug’s side effects:

“The most common side effects with Sativex are dizziness and tiredness.Some people may also feel depressed or confused, may feel over-excited or lose touch with reality, may have difficulties with memory or trouble concentrating and may feel sleepy or giddy. For most people taking Sativex, these side effects are mild to moderate, last only a few hours and can be managed by changing the number of sprays or taking a short break from using the medicine. Side effects are most likely to happen when you start treatment and will often decrease as you become more used to Sativex.”

enough said

as far as the huge investment in growing goes my mate grew 90 grams of large quality buds off 1 plant in a wardrobe in 2.5 months with on 7 x 20watt tesco cfls, where's the investment in that or are you talking time wise??

oh and there is absolutely nothing new about cannabis or it's oil derivative. GW pharmacy would love you to think there is but this is all possible already very simply for people who don't have the money or inclination to line the pockets of thief's and conmen who have lied to us for over 50 years.

Big Davey

I wonder how long it will take for the stuff to start being stolen from chemists and the lab ? There might be a huge black market for this stuff like Viagra in the noughties.......................

Playboy

G Power wrote: »

25 tokes a day ahahahahahahahaha

quick lock that dangerous criminal up immediately ahahahahahahaha

what a fantastic advertisement for regular consumption of cannabis you are.

G Power

Big Davey wrote: »

I wonder how long it will take for the stuff to start being stolen from chemists and the lab ? There might be a huge black market for this stuff like Viagra in the noughties.......................

cannabis is already on the black market since the day they made it illegal over 50 years ago :pac:

Big Davey

G Power wrote: »

cannabis is already on the black market since the day they made it illegal over 50 years ago :pac:

I know ! My point was the medical stuff on the black market.

Kurtosis

G Power wrote: »

our "government" are happy to sidestep the testing of this "new" drug and just bring it straight to shelf!! How much does that cost a huge UK pharma lobbyist these days I wonder??

Do you have any understanding of clinical trials and the process of licensing a medicinal product?

G Power

luckily there are a lot of people active and very much awake surrounding this oxymoron

http://www.clear-uk.org/the-sativex-scam-becomes-a-scandal/

Laurel Bush, a CLEAR member, is working diligently and courageously on exposing the truth about Sativex and the dishonest and corrupt relationship between GW Pharmaceuticals and the Home Office. Now it seems that the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) is becoming a co-conspirator.

Having previously recognised Sativex as cannabis and therefore a schedule 1 drug “with no medicinal value”, it has now decided that Sativex isn’t cannabis at all! See here for Laurel’s work with Freedom of Information requests which has exposed the dishonesty at the heart of government. His tenacity is magnificent and he is owed a huge debt of gratitude from all those who need cannabis as medicine.

What brings this issue to the fore again is the pressing need for the Home Office to re-schedule Sativex (also known by the non-proprietary name of Nabiximols) under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (MoDA). Professor Les Iversen, chair of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD), wrote to the Home Office in January 2011 advising that it be placed into schedule 4. This hasn’t happened yet because the Home Office is desperately seeking a way falsely to distinguish Sativex from cannabis. Now it seems it’s trying to inveigle more people into its deception.

I have written to Professor Sir Kent Woods, chief executive of the MHRA, asking him to take action to protect the integrity of the agency and to ensure the truth about Sativex is made clear.

Prof. Sir Kent Woods
Dear Sir Kent,

Sativex (Nabiximols)

I am the elected leader of Cannabis Law Reform (CLEAR), a registered UK political party that seeks an end to the prohibition of cannabis, most urgently for those who need it as medicine.

I am extremely concerned at the response by Sue Jones, your corporate policy official on 15th March 2012 to an FOI request concerning the ingredients of Sativex (your reference 12-065).

Ms Jones wrote:

“…the active elements of this drug are not cannabis, but two constituents found in the cannabis plant that have been found to have pharmacological properties for treating these specific indications. An “active constituent” means it has the pharmacological activity to treat the proposed indications. Since the product is derived from elements in the cannabis plant, rather than the cannabis plant itself, it should be clear therefore that Sativex is not “cannabis”.

This is entirely false. It is nonsense.

It is within the public domain that Sativex is an whole plant extract manufactured by blending two strains of herbal cannabis and using a CO2 extraction process to produce a tincture which also contains ethanol, propylene glycol and peppermint oil. Sativex is cannabis and contains all the cannabinoids, terpines and flavonoids present in the plants from which it is made.

Dr David Potter
David Potter, Director of Botanical Research and Cultivation at GW Pharmaceuticals, explains why the minor ingredients of cannabis are so important to the efficacy of Sativex in his thesis: http://www.gwpharm.com/uploads/phd_david_potter_jp.pdf

Dr Geoffrey Guy
Dr Geoffrey Guy, founder and executive chairman of GW, is on the record saying:

“Most people in our industry said it was impossible to turn cannabis into a prescription medicine. We had to rewrite the rule book. We have the first approval of a plant extract drug in modern history. It has 420 molecules, whereas every other drug has just one.”

GW Pharmaceuticals and the Home Office are presently engaged in an unlawful conspiracy falsely to distinguish Sativex from cannabis in order that the tincture can be re-scheduled into schedule 4 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 leaving herbal cannabis in schedule 1. This is dishonest and corrupt.

Please can you reassure me that the MHRA is not party to this attempted deception?

I would ask that you issue a correction to Ms Jones’ response. The truth about Sativex and cannabis is of far more importance than any attempt at disinformation in order to support the government’s failed and dishonest policy of prohibition.

The Home Office position that “there is no medicinal value in cannabis” is a lie and I call on you to ensure that the MHRA deals only in the truth.

Kind regards,

Yours sincerely,

Peter Reynolds

G Power

penguin88 wrote: »

Do you have any understanding of clinical trials and the process of licensing a medicinal product?

I understand that the very people who convinced and bribed everyone into prohibiting cannabis, the american government, are the same crowd that have the patent on THC and CBD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid#US_patent_on_cannabinoids

US patent number 6,630,507, "Cannabinoids as antioxidants and neuroprotectants", was filed in 2001 and was granted in 2003. The patent, assigned to the United States Department of Health and Human Services, states:
"Cannabinoids have been found to have antioxidant properties, unrelated to NMDA receptor antagonism. This new found property makes cannabinoids useful in the treatment and prophylaxis of wide variety of oxidation associated diseases, such as ischemic, age-related, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases. The cannabinoids are found to have particular application as neuroprotectants, for example in limiting neurological damage following ischemic insults, such as stroke and trauma, or in the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease and HIV dementia.”
The patent asserts cannabinoids are shown to help in treating stroke, heart attack, inflammation, and autoimmune disorders.

I also understand that GW pharmacy just extracts THC and CBD and the many other chemicals that go to giving THC and CBD's their medical and recreational qualities, produce an oil that can be made at home simply enough and the fact they put it in a spray bottle they expect the Irish/UK market to pay 4 times more for 1/5 of the product that our yanky brothers and sisters pay for.

I undertand that this whole issue has been fubar for so long now that some people still think the governments and big pharma are working with us and for us.

If the government cared about any of us including those suffering with MS that have been medicating themselves quite successfully from indoor grows they'd have done so much more than they've done up til now. It's extremely condescending to try tell people only GW pharmacies medical cannabis is legal as soon as we wrote the aw in such a fantastical way so as to keep any cannabis produced by anyone other than GW pharmacy illegal!!

Kurtosis

penguin88 wrote: »

Do you have any understanding of clinical trials and the process of licensing a medicinal product?

G Power wrote: »

I understand that the very people who convinced and bribed everyone into prohibiting cannabis, the american government, are the same crowd that have the patent on THC and CBD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid#US_patent_on_cannabinoids

US patent number 6,630,507, "Cannabinoids as antioxidants and neuroprotectants", was filed in 2001 and was granted in 2003. The patent, assigned to the United States Department of Health and Human Services, states:
"Cannabinoids have been found to have antioxidant properties, unrelated to NMDA receptor antagonism. This new found property makes cannabinoids useful in the treatment and prophylaxis of wide variety of oxidation associated diseases, such as ischemic, age-related, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases. The cannabinoids are found to have particular application as neuroprotectants, for example in limiting neurological damage following ischemic insults, such as stroke and trauma, or in the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease and HIV dementia.”
The patent asserts cannabinoids are shown to help in treating stroke, heart attack, inflammation, and autoimmune disorders.

I also understand that GW pharmacy just extracts THC and CBD and the many other chemicals that go to giving THC and CBD's their medical and recreational qualities, produce an oil that can be made at home simply enough and the fact they put it in a spray bottle they expect the Irish/UK market to pay 4 times more for 1/5 of the product that our yanky brothers and sisters pay for.

I undertand that this whole issue has been fubar for so long now that some people still think the governments and big pharma are working with us and for us.

If the government cared about any of us including those suffering with MS that have been medicating themselves quite successfully from indoor grows they'd have done so much more than they've done up til now. It's extremely condescending to try tell people only GW pharmacies medical cannabis is legal as soon as we wrote the aw in such a fantastical way so as to keep any cannabis produced by anyone other than GW pharmacy illegal!!

Yeh, that's not really the answer to the question I asked. You suggested testing had been sidestepped and the product had been brought straight to the shelf, which demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how new medications are trialed and licensed, regardless of the legal status of the drug.

This is actually a really interesting topic for discussion but the spouting of ridiculous statements really detracts from the important issues.

Mr Benevolent

penguin88 wrote: »

Yeh, that's not really the answer to the question I asked. You suggested testing had been sidestepped and the product had been brought straight to the shelf, which demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how new medications are trialed and licensed, regardless of the legal status of the drug.

This is actually a really interesting topic for discussion but the spouting of ridiculous statements really detracts from the important issues.

There'll be a lot of interest when Sativex goes generic...

G Power

Playboy wrote: »

what a fantastic advertisement for regular consumption of cannabis you are.

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

christ!!

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

G Power

penguin88 wrote: »

Yeh, that's not really the answer to the question I asked. You suggested testing had been sidestepped and the product had been brought straight to the shelf, which demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how new medications are trialed and licensed, regardless of the legal status of the drug.

This is actually a really interesting topic for discussion but the spouting of ridiculous statements really detracts from the important issues.

I'm only going by what said through official channels a couple of months back. I nearly choked when i heard it myself but I heard what I heard.

the fact there's an illegal narcotic drug being introduced onto the Irish market and all involved with it are doing their best to call it something other than what they've said has no medical benefits for over 50 years should ring alarm bells with you!!

There's blatant lying and downright profiteering going on here and brown envelopes will smooth out any issues such as needing to test this psychoactive drug in Ireland before being approved and go straight to market as soon as we write the law in such a way the only THC/CBD legal in Ireland is GW pharmacies THC/CBD!!

G Power

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

There'll be a lot of interest when Sativex goes generic...

there's already huge interest in circles that don't wait to be told something is good for them or not

http://goo.gl/5cau0

Playboy

G Power wrote: »

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

christ!!

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

And you continue to do yourself proud!

There is more to life than getting stoned you know. Why dont you put your energy into something a little more worthwhile?

Snake Pliisken

Playboy wrote: »

And you continue to do yourself proud!

There is more to life than getting stoned you know. Why dont you put your energy into something a little more worthwhile?

He's trolling you hard.

And

You're on a forum tooting your own horn to other self-important people, there's pretty much nothing that's more of a waste of time that this, so you can get off your high-horse now please.