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Child Item

Being forced to use your "Irish" name at school

MadsL

My daughter attends a second-level gaelscoil that insists on calling her by a translation of her actual name that sound similar to her actual name but is in fact a different Irish name. She hates it and has frequently resisted it by saying to her teacher 'that's not my name'. Her teachers continually 'correct' her if she asserts that her name is her name by repeating the translated name back to her.

Should she put up with this? What does AH think?

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Paramite Pie

MadsL wrote: »

I hope the smiley face means that you are joking, because otherwise that is the most rabid 'purist' argument I have ever heard.

I fail to see the racism? If my name was 아리영 or عايشة would it be racist to translate it into Western letters? That's all he's saying. (i think?)

Certain sounds are not well represented by our Roman alphabet. Everyone will have their own interpretation, depending on their accent.

The previous poster simply expressed the idea of not using letters like J, X, Z etc since their traditionally not used in Irish and to spell them using the following letters

a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, l, m, n, o, p, r, s, t, u
á, é, í, ó,ú
(those letters are pronounced differently in Irish than in English)

For example, when I was in Korea, my name Brian became Beulaieon (브라이언). I never considered that racist.

Míshásta

I apologise if I'm repeating any points made by others as I haven't managed to get through all the pages on this subject.

But a little historical background may shed some light. (or perhaps not

)

People keep reiterating that one's name remains the same regardless of what language is spoken - but this is a very modern concept. There have always been different versions of names in different tongues and people have used different versions of their names depending on context.

For instance, a native Czech speaker of the nobility in the 16th century would have used his Czech name for ordinary purposes, but would have used a Latinised version of his name if writing a scholarly thesis and a German name when appearing at Court. Even the English spelling "Czech" we use is influenced by foreign spelling - would you know how "Cz" was pronounced if you hadn't heard it.

In this country there is a long history going back to the Norman era of people using different versions of names. Norman-French names have been anglicised, then Gaelicised and often anglicised again. Many present day anglicised surnames have little logical connection with the original version but people still accept them as is.

There is nothing new or 'wrong' about creating Irish versions of foreign names - this is just a process that is as old a language itself.

With the rise of nationalism in Europe in the nineteenth century and the renaissance of native languages all over the continent many people took up native versions of their names. This also happened in Ireland with the Gaelic revival.

I think people should use what name they like - but I'm a little perplexed by somebody objecting to an Irish version of names being used in a Gael-scoil.

MadsL

Míshásta wrote: »

I apologise if I'm repeating any points made by others as I haven't managed to get through all the pages on this subject.

But a little historical background may shed some light. (or perhaps not )

People keep reiterating that one's name remains the same regardless of what language is spoken - but this is a very modern concept. There have always been different versions of names in different tongues and people have used different versions of their names depending on context.

For instance, a native Czech speaker of the nobility in the 16th century would have used his Czech name for ordinary purposes, but would have used a Latinised version of his name if writing a scholarly thesis and a German name when appearing at Court. Even the English spelling "Czech" we use is influenced by foreign spelling - would you know how "Cz" was pronounced if you hadn't heard it.

In this country there is a long history going back to the Norman era of people using different versions of names. Norman-French names have been anglicised, then Gaelicised and often anglicised again. Many present day anglicised surnames have little logical connection with the original version but people still accept them as is.

There is nothing new or 'wrong' about creating Irish versions of foreign names - this is just a process that is as old a language itself.

With the rise of nationalism in Europe in the nineteenth century and the renaissance of native languages all over the continent many people took up native versions of their names. This also happened in Ireland with the Gaelic revival.

I think people should use what name they like - but I'm a little perplexed by somebody objecting to an Irish version of names being used in a Gael-scoil.

Could she choose her name do you think if it is so important?

By the way, your Czech noble would have been speaking German through military oppression. The Czech language has many political parallels with Irish, except that they managed to resurrect it at Independence from Austrio-Hungarian rule and keep it through Communism.

Míshásta

Dan_Solo wrote: »

OK so, I can ask yet again.
Is it OK to refuse Irish names in an English speaking school and to assign random English names if there is no possible equivalent?
And do Poles, Nigerians and Malaysians get completely new Irish names in Gaelscoils when there isn't any Irish names that conveniently sound a bit like them?
(don't bother, I know for a fact they don't)

Well, most schools whether in Irish speaking regions or not prior to independence refused Irish names and insisted on anglicised versions and yes they were unfortunately often "random"

The convention in the Irish language nowadays afaik is to leave foreign names in the "English" version. However there is nothing wrong with someone using a gaelicised version of their name if they so wish.

A gaelicised version of a non-English personal name is no more irrational than an anglicised version. Do you think the ordinary Chinese citizen uses or would even recognise Mao Tse Tung / Mao Zedung.

Míshásta

MadsL wrote: »

Could she choose her name do you think if it is so important?

Well, most kids don't choose their name, it's given to them by their parents.
I'm not sure I'd agree to calling my young daughter by the name of a member of an exotic pop group. When she'd reach a certain age, I suppose I'd have to capitulate.

There has been a tradition in most schools in this part of the country to use Irish versions of names in Irish classes. That was not an issue when I was at school. Fadó, fadó, unfortunately.

Fwiw, I use the English version of my name when speaking Irish - I just prefer to stick to one name. Some people address me by the Irish version when speaking the language. It doesn't bother me though.

MadsL

Míshásta wrote: »

Well, most kids don't choose their name, it's given to them by their parents.
I'm not sure I'd agree to calling my young daughter by the name of a member of an exotic pop group. When she'd reach a certain age, I suppose I'd have to capitulate.

There has been a tradition in most schools in this part of the country to use Irish versions of names in Irish classes. That was not an issue when I was at school. Fadó, fadó, unfortunately.

Fwiw, I use the English version of my name when speaking Irish - I just prefer to stick to one name. Some people address me by the Irish version when speaking the language. It doesn't bother me though.

I meant this temporary non-legal pseudonym she is supposed to adopt when attending a gaelscoil? Could she chose what name to use then?

Iwasfrozen

Míshásta wrote: »

Well, most kids don't choose their name, it's given to them by their parents.
I'm not sure I'd agree to calling my young daughter by the name of a member of an exotic pop group. When she'd reach a certain age, I suppose I'd have to capitulate.

There has been a tradition in most schools in this part of the country to use Irish versions of names in Irish classes. That was not an issue when I was at school. Fadó, fadó, unfortunately.

Fwiw, I use the English version of my name when speaking Irish - I just prefer to stick to one name. Some people address me by the Irish version when speaking the language. It doesn't bother me though.

You're missing the point. No one has a right to rename someone else or call them something they don't want to be called.

clairefontaine

I know in any foreign language class I have taken, we were forced to use the releveant language forms of our names. So Michaels were called Michels, or Johns were called Jean or Juan, etc.

Saying that, I have a foreign name myself and went to an English speaking school and was not forced to anglicise it, it was just treated as my name and that was that.

That she is forced to use her Irish name, just as we were forced to use the foreign versions of our names in foreign language classes, would suggest to me that at the bottom line, the teachers too see Irish as a foreign language. If she had an Irish name, no English speaking school would force her to anglicise it.

Personally, I think it's obnoxious, and have taught English to foreigners and never had the arrogance to try and rename them.

Kiwi in IE

I wouldn't imagine that in a school where English is the first language that staff would insist on calling a child named Pierre 'Peter'. If your daughter has asked that they use her given name and they have refused, I would make a formal complaint. Regardless of the language of the school, her name is her name.

Taco Chips

MadsL wrote: »

Could she choose her name do you think if it is so important?

You're still missing the point in all of this. You chose to send her to a Gaelscoil. This is how they operate. Why are you acting like this is new and surprising? If you don't like it send her to the local comp.

Iwasfrozen

Taco Chips wrote: »

You're still missing the point in all of this. You chose to send her to a Gaelscoil. This is how they operate. Why are you acting like this is new and surprising? If you don't like it send her to the local comp.

How they operate isn't set in stone. We aren't missing the point, you are. You can't just say "well it's their policy" when they don't have the right to make the policy in the first place.

Taco Chips

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How they operate isn't set in stone. We aren't missing the point, you are. You can't just say "well it's their policy" when they don't have the right to make the policy in the first place.

Of course they have the right to make the policy. Why on earth wouldn't they?

Kiwi in IE

Míshásta wrote: »

The convention in the Irish language nowadays afaik is to leave foreign names in the "English" version. However there is nothing wrong with someone using a gaelicised version of their name if they so wish.

I absolutely agree. The issue here though is that this child does not so wish!

MadsL

Taco Chips wrote: »

You're still missing the point in all of this. You chose to send her to a Gaelscoil. This is how they operate. Why are you acting like this is new and surprising? If you don't like it send her to the local comp.

The name thing isn't in any policies and it is inconsistently applied by teacher and by pupil.

Taco Chips

MadsL wrote: »

The name thing isn't in any policies and it is inconsistently applied by teacher and by pupil.

So some people are called in their Irish name and some aren't? Big deal? It's such a minor issue in the wider scheme of school. Has she got exams she should be getting ready for instead of being preoccupied over this? Also if you have such an objection to the Irish language why is she going to a Gaelscoil?

Kiwi in IE

Taco Chips wrote: »

You're still missing the point in all of this. You chose to send her to a Gaelscoil. This is how they operate. Why are you acting like this is new and surprising? If you don't like it send her to the local comp.

I think you might be missing the point. Sending her to a Gaelscoil and wanting her to be taught in the Irish language does not mean her family want her name changed to the Irish version of whatever it is. If they had wanted her to be called the Irish version of the name they would have named her that at birth. The child and her family might not like the sound of the translated name at all. A lovely name in one language may sound horrible when translated to another. My child has an Irish name, and if when I send him to the English speaking school he will be going to next year, they translate it to the English version because it is an English speaking school, I just won't be having it!

Taco Chips

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I think you might be missing the point. Sending her to a Gaelscoil and wanting her to be taught in the Irish language does not mean her family want her name changed to the Irish version of whatever it is. If they had wanted her to be called the Irish version of the name they would have named her that at birth. The child and her family might not like the sound of the translated name at all. A lovely name in one language may sound horrible when translated to another. My child has an Irish name, and if when I send him to the English speaking school he will be going to next year, they translate it to the English version because it is an English speaking school, I just won't be having it!

No I understand what the OP is saying I just don't understand why it's an issue. It happenened to everyone I knew in primary school anyway, and we all liked hearing our Irish names.

It's the school's MO to provide an Irish education in an Irish environment and total immersion is part of that. Tradition in these schools has always had this come to pass. Everyone knows that.

MadsL

Taco Chips wrote: »

So some people are called in their Irish name and some aren't? Big deal? It's such a minor issue in the wider scheme of school. Has she got exams she should be getting ready for instead of being preoccupied over this? Also if you have such an objection to the Irish language why is she going to a Gaelscoil?

I appear doomed to repeat myself ad nauseam in this thread.

1. Yes, it is a minor issue. I have said so repeatedly. It is a small irritant. Still irritating and rude.
2. She's not "preoccupied" nor upset nor having a strop. She's irritated by it. You would think adults could drop making "corrections" to her name in an exam year but that's some teachers for you.
3. I have no objection to the Irish language. Never had. Kid is fluent, and has a long Irish tradition in the family.

Now before you make up any more things that AREN'T happening - could you read my posts in this thread before jumping in any further,

HondaSami

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

My child has an Irish name, and if when I send him to the English speaking school he will be going to next year, they translate it to the English version because it is an English speaking school, I just won't be having it!

This does not happen, in Gaelscoil it's common practice to speak only Irish.

MadsL

Taco Chips wrote: »

No I understand what the OP is saying I just don't understand why it's an issue. It happenened to everyone I knew in primary school anyway, and we all liked hearing our Irish names.

Several have posted to say they didn't.

It's the school's MO to provide an Irish education in an Irish environment and total immersion is part of that.

But she's not Helga and Michelle in the relevant other language classes.

Tradition in these schools has always had this come to pass. Everyone knows that.

Jeez, everyone eh?

MadsL

HondaSami wrote: »

This does not happen, in Gaelscoil it's common practice to speak only Irish.

In Béarla classes too?

Iwasfrozen

Taco Chips wrote: »

Of course they have the right to make the policy. Why on earth wouldn't they?

Because you don't have the right to impose a name on someone.

4zn76tysfajdxp

I still don't understand why the OP just won't ring the school and tell them to stop calling her by her "Irish name." Doesn't he know how to use a phone?

Oranage2

MadsL wrote: »

Several have posted to say they didn't.

But she's not Helga and Michelle in the relevant other language classes.

Jeez, everyone eh?

I still don't know why you didn't go to the school and sorted this when she first started and I still don't know why you don't sort it now.

A mountain out of a mole hill, though like father like daughter :pac:

Oranage2

Alaia Whining Army wrote: »

I still don't understand why the OP just won't ring the school and tell them to stop calling her by her "Irish name." Doesn't he know how to use a phone?

Because he's liking all the internet attention too much.

Kiwi in IE

Taco Chips wrote: »

No I understand what the OP is saying I just don't understand why it's an issue. It happenened to everyone I knew in primary school anyway, and we all liked hearing our Irish names.

It's the school's MO to provide an Irish education in an Irish environment and total immersion is part of that. Tradition in these schools has always had this come to pass. Everyone knows that.

I understand that the schools have a policy of total immersion, but providing an Irish education in an Irish environment does not have to extend to changing a child's non Irish given name to an Irish one. Perhaps most students in this situation who have non Irish names have no problem and enjoy being addressed by the translation, but for whatever reason this child does not like it, has explained this, and staff have ignored her request that her given name be used. I find this highly obnoxious and if it were my child I would go in and formally complain.

MadsL

Alaia Whining Army wrote: »

I still don't understand why the OP just won't ring the school and tell them to stop calling her by her "Irish name." Doesn't he know how to use a phone?

I refer the gentleman to the answer I gave some time ago - checking with other authorities on documentation they require. Plus my daughter has not asked me to intervene as this is a minor issue as everyone keeps reminding me.

Oranage2 wrote: »

I still don't know why you didn't go to the school and sorted this when she first started and I still don't know why you don't sort it now.

A mountain out of a mole hill, though like father like daughter :pac:

You know nothing about either of us frankly.

Oranage2 wrote: »

Because he's liking all the internet attention too much.

(Checks hair)
*blows kiss to the audience*

Kiwi in IE

HondaSami wrote: »

This does not happen, in Gaelscoil it's common practice to speak only Irish.

Well it is unreasonable to include given names if the child is opposed to it. If they have a policy of speaking only Irish at all times what do they do when they get a child with a name that does not translate? It is up to parents to name their children not schools, regardless of language spoken.

Oranage2

MadsL wrote: »

I refer the gentleman to the answer I gave some time ago - checking with other authorities on documentation they require. Plus my daughter has not asked me to intervene as this is a minor issue as everyone keeps reminding me.

You know nothing about either of us frankly.

(Checks hair)
*blows kiss to the audience*

After reading 5 odd pages of this thread I know know quite a bit now and don't call me frankly!

DyldeBrill

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Many of our names come from Hebrew because of the bible. Mary/Maire or John/Sean are all translations from Hebrew names in English/Irish respectively. If it's in the Bible then there is an Irish version of it.

I know that, hence why I said if any name has a significance in history then there will be Irish for it.

Sure a lot of Irish is based around the Irish language.

Dia dhuit(god be with you)

Dia Is muire dhuit etc etc..