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Child Item

Being forced to use your "Irish" name at school

MadsL

My daughter attends a second-level gaelscoil that insists on calling her by a translation of her actual name that sound similar to her actual name but is in fact a different Irish name. She hates it and has frequently resisted it by saying to her teacher 'that's not my name'. Her teachers continually 'correct' her if she asserts that her name is her name by repeating the translated name back to her.

Should she put up with this? What does AH think?

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Grudaire

MadsL wrote: »

I asked that. Apparently that's done by number.

But, there is every chance at some point that I will have to deal with US immigration. One name on the birth cert, one name on the school records and possibly at that stage a different one on her passport (her Irish surname).

Nightmare.

Ah here now, do you really think US Immigration is going to be a problem? As long as she hasn't been in trouble with the Cops and declares that she has had the names there won't be an issue!

Two points though - this isn't a problem unless you've talked with the school and they are fighting back. Otherwise you don't know both sides of the story - you're just listening to what may be a biased opinion from your daughter (not that your daughter might ever be wrong

)

Secondly the school may have a certain ethos, and way of doing things. This is after all "the best education available to her" so they must be doing something right

The status quo should be questioned, but you may find that they resist. and have an open mind - I mean why have schools got uniforms or the rest of the long list of rules?

Oisinjm

MadsL wrote: »

I love the way when you post a thread on boards people treat your reaction as if you have self-immolated on Tara in protest. I'm posting a thread about it, that's not making a mountain out of anything. Jeez.

I assumed it was a big deal, you've made a thread and debated how you feel on the subject for 14 pages. Don't think that was an outrageous assumption to make.

My location doesn't exactly make popping in an option. She complains about it though, and I don't really get why her wishes are disregarded.

Well you could make an appointment for a time and date that suits, most teachers and principals are very accomodating. However, you're letting your daughter fight her own battles which is a fair stance to take. If they bend the rules to accommodate your daughter, they'll have to do the same for others. Many Gaelgóirs would be proud of this tradition, I assume (It means nothing to me), so if they completely change the rule they could get a backlash from this corner. Then there's also the time consuming aspect of having to change all the records etc for these pupils. A bureaucratic headwreck they could probably do without.

My daughter is not a liar by the way. I didn't appreciate you suggesting that she doesn't tell the truth. That's not me being naive, but she has no reason to lie about this.

Never said she was, but I said it so you'd not assume she's telling the whole truth either. Kids exaggerate and add/drop parts of stories to suit their arguments, well adults to a lot as well actually. I knew of a few lads in my year who would have had tiffs with the school and misled their parents who believed them blindly only to find out the schools side of the story etc. I was just making sure you weren't being naive, which you've stated you aren't. Fair enough.

MadsL

Henlars67 wrote: »

Because the Irish version of someone's name isn't their name.

It's like a girl called Sarah being referred to as Sorcha.

Sorcha is the Irish version of her name, but it is most definitely not her name and she shouldn't be called it, especially if she doesn't like it.

Like eating up all your dinner cus of the black babies, there is this weird notion that this is somehow "good" for you. I'm astonished it seems to have bled into the 21st Century.

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeh, I don't get it.

Your name is your name, regardless of language. Change the language and it's not your name any more.

So, if your name is John, you'd be ok being called these (btw, i realise some of those translations are bollocks, but you get the point). Or maybe even as "hey there YAHWEH is gracious" because that's the original meaning of the name.

I work with foreigners. If a guy is called Johann, i don't call him John because he's in an english speaking country. His name is Johann and if it happens to be a bit harder to pronounce, I'll make the effort. In fact I get a little annoyed with a lot of the asians who decide to adapt a western name. There would be a chinese girl called Mo. But she'd sign off mails as Wendy.

I don't care if it's a gaelscoil. It's not supposed to subvert your identity.

Oisinjm

Cliste wrote: »

Two points though - this isn't a problem unless you've talked with the school and they are fighting back. Otherwise you don't know both sides of the story - you're just listening to what may be a biased opinion from your daughter (not that your daughter might ever be wrong )

This is the point I was trying to make earlier, just worded it poorly. So apologies there.

Grudaire

MadsL wrote: »

I love the way when you post a thread on boards people treat your reaction as if you have self-immolated on Tara in protest. I'm posting a thread about it, that's not making a mountain out of anything. Jeez.

I guess part of the reason haven't brought it up with them is to let her fight her own battles and I think she would be mortified if I did. My location doesn't exactly make popping in an option. She complains about it though, and I don't really get why her wishes are disregarded. Traditions are not rules though. I'd like to think I raised my daughter to both respect and question tradition.

Posting a thread in AH IS making a mountain out of whatever the topic is tbf!

Traditions may be rules! You haven't contacted the school so you don't know!

MadsL wrote: »

My daughter is not a liar by the way. I didn't appreciate you suggesting that she doesn't tell the truth. That's not me being naive, but she has no reason to lie about this.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cPEKu7YgoOg/TpcUv6s2zdI/AAAAAAAAAek/8OyrkoJweik/s1600/teacher%2Blife%2Btoday..2011.JPG
tbf

Seachmall

Cliste wrote: »

Posting a thread in AH IS making a mountain out of whatever the topic is tbf!

Hardly. It's a forum for casual discussion, not Prime Time.

Grudaire

Seachmall wrote: »

Hardly. It's a forum for casual discussion, not Prime Time.

Casual discussion!?

Have you (or your mother) looked at the forum charter recently? Serious business tbf :pac:

elmer

Oisinjm wrote: »

This is the point I was trying to make earlier, just worded it poorly. So apologies there.

grand - i assume your name is oisín?

considering this topic is in english would you be happy for us to change your name to fawn as this would appear to be the closest translation?

MadsL

Oisinjm wrote: »

I assumed it was a big deal, you've made a thread and debated how you feel on the subject for 14 pages. Don't think that was an outrageous assumption to make.

I'm interested to get some viewpoints, and I enjoy boards. How am I making a big deal?? I don't get this idea about how if you discuss something that irks you on boards you are making an "issue" or a "first world problem" of it. Boards is for discussing things, no???

Well you could make an appointment for a time and date that suits, most teachers and principals are very accomodating.

It probably will have to wait until I'm back in Ireland in 2014. I guess you haven't read this bit
<<<<<<<

However, you're letting your daughter fight her own battles which is a fair stance to take. If they bend the rules to accommodate your daughter, they'll have to do the same for others.

You mean others like Esther and Sophie and little Mei-Li. Yes I suppose it is better to treat everyone the same...oh wait.

Many Gaelgóirs would be proud of this tradition, I assume (It means nothing to me), so if they completely change the rule they could get a backlash from this corner.

Nothing stopping little Mary being called Máire if she wishes to keep the tradition. Tell you what though, there would be hell to pay if Vodafone insisted Máire be called Mary when she is in the call centre.

Then there's also the time consuming aspect of having to change all the records etc for these pupils. A bureaucratic headwreck they could probably do without.

Ah yes. Better, the bureaucratic headwreck of making up a name that does not match a birth cert nor the usage of the pupil concerned. That will confuse the hell out of foreign visa officials.

Victor

Scortho wrote: »

And for the record if I go and live in Germany I'd love if they started calling me herr von C!:)

Are you of royal blood that you claim the 'von' bit?

Oisinjm

elmer wrote: »

grand - i assume your name is oisín?

considering this topic is in english would you be happy for us to change your name to fawn as this would appear to be the closest translation?

Well none of us here are translating his daughters name. If I wanted to attend the best school in the area, which happened to be an English speaking school, and it was the done thing in that school to translate names into English I guess I'd deal with it for the education. Or if it was a major deal for me I'd go to another school nearby.

Fawn :cool:

MadsL

Cliste wrote: »

Posting a thread in AH IS making a mountain out of whatever the topic is tbf!

Sure.

Traditions may be rules! You haven't contacted the school so you don't know!

I have read the school policies. Nothing on names.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cPEKu7YgoOg/TpcUv6s2zdI/AAAAAAAAAek/8OyrkoJweik/s1600/teacher%2Blife%2Btoday..2011.JPG
tbf

You might have missed the bit where I said I was a former teacher.

Cavehill Red

As some have already said (and others haven't apparently understood), your name is your name. It doesn't translate. There is no Irish 'version' (or French, Swahili, Latin or Russian version for that matter.) You are entitled to your name. I believe that may even be one of the rights detailed on the UN Charter of Human Rights, actually.

The defence of this practice seems to be tradition - that's what gaelscoilleanna do and that's that. Not good enough in my opinion. The Islamic school in Dublin doesn't 'translate' students' names into Arabic. The German school in Dublin doesn't 'translate' their names into German. The Anglophone schools don't do it either. Only the gaelscoilleanna do this. To me it smacks of a cultural inferiority complex.

The child in the OP has an inalienable right to be addressed by their own given name, or the name that they, their parents and society have agreed is theirs. No school, nor any other entity, has any right to impose another. They are wrong and they will back down once this point is made to them, but I suspect it will have to be made by a parent to be heard.

Cookie_Monster

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

I don't think it's that a big a deal really.

It certainly is. You can't just translate someone's name to another language and call them that as it suits. Our 1st year Irish teacher insisted on it :mad:
You don't expect to call any Europeans (etc) you know by the Irish / English variant of their name do you? I'm sure they would also take offence at that.

Your name is your name and should never be translated, regardless of where you are it should always stay in the language it was given to you in unless you personally choose otherwise.

MadsL

Oisinjm wrote: »

Well none of us here are translating his daughters name. If I wanted to attend the best school in the area, which happened to be an English speaking school, and it was the done thing in that school to translate names into English I guess I'd deal with it for the education. Or if it was a major deal for me I'd go to another school nearby.

Fawn :cool:

Thanks Fawn.

You are not translating my daughters name because I didn't tell you it. :cool:

Would you really go to school in the UK and be called "Fawn"? Oh boy.

Grudaire

MadsL wrote: »

I have read the school policies. Nothing on names.

You might have missed the bit where I said I was a former teacher.

Policies aren't rules!?

Being a teacher doesn't mean your daughter is definitely telling the truth! I'm not saying she's lying - but it's her opinion you're getting.

the_syco

When talking to the teachers, ask what do they call Adolf Hitler when they talk about him in history class, and if not the Irish version, why not?

ballsymchugh

where's that education forum where the teachers and the like who would know more about this hang out??

Cavehill Red

Do they actually teach like this, I wonder?
I mean, are history lessons littered with references to Searlas O' Gaulle, Seosamh Stalineach, Winston Eaglaiscnoc?

MadsL

Cliste wrote: »

Policies aren't rules!?

Is there a hidden rule book somewhere?? Ah, I broke the rule no-one knows about.

Being a teacher doesn't mean your daughter is definitely telling the truth! I'm not saying she's lying - but it's her opinion you're getting.

In reference to your cartoon dig at parents blaming teachers. I'm a former teacher, I don't need to be told how crap some teachers are - I was a crap teacher.

ballsymchugh

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Do they actually teach like this, I wonder?
I mean, are history lessons littered with references to Searlas O' Gaulle, Seosamh Stalineach, Winston Eaglaiscnoc?

well, james the second, who lost to billy oraiste, is fondly remembered here as seamus a chaca, or james the shyte.

MadsL

ballsymchugh wrote: »

where's that education forum where the teachers and the like who would know more about this hang out??

Dunno, drop em a post and send em over...

elmer

Oisinjm wrote: »

Well none of us here are translating his daughters name. If I wanted to attend the best school in the area, which happened to be an English speaking school, and it was the done thing in that school to translate names into English I guess I'd deal with it for the education. Or if it was a major deal for me I'd go to another school nearby.

Fawn :cool:

super - tell everyone who knows you to call you fawn instead of oisín for a week and see if you don't get peeved.

I traveled to india a few years back. Whilst speaking to a local(In english, his probably better than mine

)I found out that in order to get into the best schools there it used to be a requirement to also change your religion as the best schools were run by christian missionaries/orders. It may have been the done thing to do - certainly doesn't make it right.

A good few of these translations were from irish to latin for birth certs and then are now from english derived from the latin to go back to irish which ends up alot like recent chinese translations of brands etc where the names(characters) sound similiar but have no correlated meaning.

Cavehill Red

ballsymchugh wrote: »

well, james the second, who lost to billy oraiste, is fondly remembered here as seamus a chaca, or james the shyte.

Fondly remembered in secondary school history lessons?

Oisinjm

MadsL wrote: »

I'm interested to get some viewpoints, and I enjoy boards. How am I making a big deal?? I don't get this idea about how if you discuss something that irks you on boards you are making an "issue" or a "first world problem" of it. Boards is for discussing things, no???

I'd only every post for 14+ pages on a thread unless I cared about the subject being discussed a great deal. I guess we're just different there. I won't make that assumption again.

It probably will have to wait until I'm back in Ireland in 2014. I guess you haven't read this bit
<<<<<<<

No, I hadn't seen it. Could you have a phone conversation/meeting with someone in charge? I'd say they'd be willing to do that.

You mean others like Esther and Sophie and little Mei-Li. Yes I suppose it is better to treat everyone the same...oh wait.

You daughter is being called a translation. Hypothetically they'd be called completely new/made up names.

Nothing stopping little Mary being called Máire if she wishes to keep the tradition. Tell you what though, there would be hell to pay if Vodafone insisted Máire be called Mary when she is in the call centre.

We're talking about gaelscoils here. You knew this was the case when you sent your daughter here, that's why I don't feel that your daughter can feel annoyed about it. You both knew this was going to be the case from day one, yet still attended the school.

Ah yes. Better, the bureaucratic headwreck of making up a name that does not match a birth cert nor the usage of the pupil concerned. That will confuse the hell out of foreign visa officials.

It's always been done and to do the reverse now would be a headwreck is what I said. Also, as said previously, there should be no issue with foreign visa officials unless there's a criminal record or something along those lines.

Anyway, I'm off to sleep. It was interesting to read your opinion whilst procrastinating in my college work.

Oisinjm

elmer wrote: »

super - tell everyone who knows you to call you fawn instead of oisín for a week and see if you don't get peeved.

I've a few nicknames I'm not 100% fond of, but I don't make a big deal out of them as there's no malice there. Pretty much the same thing. This also happened in primary school for a short time when people realised the translation of Oisín.

ballsymchugh

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Fondly remembered in secondary school history lessons?

our history teacher was one of the finest.

OP do these posts reflect what's going on?

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Half of the posters haven't even read the opening post properly.

They're not calling her by her Irish name, they're calling her by an Irish name which sounds similar to her name! Because there is no Irish version of her name

Ffs, translating is one thing but stop changing names.

If my name was Emmett and I went to an Irish school, I wouldn't tolerate any teachers calling me Éamonn. Why? cos it's not my name, it's not even a translation of my name, it means Edmund.

Hopefully my names are right..

ballsymchugh wrote: »

OP, is the issue the fact that they're translating her name, or that they're giving her the wrong irish name??

take for example, irene, could be mistaken for rionagh, which is irish for regina, but regina is clearly not irene.
took me a long time to think of names along that line!!

Oisinjm

MadsL wrote: »

Thanks Fawn.

You are not translating my daughters name because I didn't tell you it. :cool:

Would you really go to school in the UK and be called "Fawn"? Oh boy.

Sorry last post I didn't see this. If it affected me enough I'd go to a different school.

Cavehill Red

ballsymchugh wrote: »

our history teacher was one of the finest.

And was his penchant of misnaming historical characters school policy? And did it extend to all historical characters? (In which case we're back to the question I posed above, re Winston Eaglaiscnoc.)