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Being forced to use your "Irish" name at school

MadsL

My daughter attends a second-level gaelscoil that insists on calling her by a translation of her actual name that sound similar to her actual name but is in fact a different Irish name. She hates it and has frequently resisted it by saying to her teacher 'that's not my name'. Her teachers continually 'correct' her if she asserts that her name is her name by repeating the translated name back to her.

Should she put up with this? What does AH think?

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Lord TSC

MadsL wrote: »

She's objecting to her given name being changed, not the ethos.

The ethos of Gaelscoils is to translate everything into, and conduct as much of the education as possible, in Irish. You knew that when you signed your kid up for the school.

Again, if it's a problem, go talk to the teacher. With a proper appointment.

Miss Lockhart

MadsL wrote: »

The school has a policy where Irish is medium of teaching. There is no mention of changing names in the school policy.

I think it reasonable that the school respects my child's wishes as to her name. I don't think it should need a parent to fight that battle.

That's very unusual for a gaelscoil or gaelcholaiste not to have specific reference to their policy on names in their documentation.

WayneMolloy

MadsL wrote: »

Come back to me on that one when there is a choice in all areas!!

There are Educate Together schools all over Dublin. They dont produce results like a Catholic gaelscoil, mind.

WoollyRedHat

It's a disgrace Seo.

playedalive

I don't think it's a problem where Irish is concerned. I went to an English medium school and the Irish teacher called me by my Irish name. I had been to the Gaeltacht also, so was used to it.

MadsL

WayneMolloy wrote: »

There are Educate Together schools all over Dublin. They dont produce results like a Catholic gaelscoil, mind.

That's is not the reason she attends the school. Her background is very much steeped in the Irish language, I don't speak it (Spanish is a lot more useful to me) but it is spoken at home and she attends through family tradition not the "piggybacking" on results you are trying to make out.

So you can stop with the snide digs thanks.

MadsL

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

That's very unusual for a gaelscoil or gaelcholaiste not to have specific reference to their policy on names in their documentation.

They don't. I have read (a google translation mind, as it is not available in English) the Irish Policy. It doesn't mention names.

Wonder what they call Adolf Hitler when teaching History? That Seosamh Stalin was a one, eh?

Paramite Pie

major bill wrote: »

I have a very Unionist sounding name tbh i never stood a chance in school but it always puzzled me where exactly they got the translation of my name into Irish in Primary school, Ive never been able to find it on Google convinced it was made up on the spot,

You could try asking on these forums, there's a section for Irish speakers who should know their stuff. Many Plantation names were Scottish but I doubt they used Scots Gaelic. Probably did just make it up..:p

bodice ripper wrote: »

When I went to primary school in the 80s tried to make me use an Irish translation of my name. It was humiliating, in part because I had a hard time pronouncing it, and in part because it wasn't my name.I was made a show of in front of the class on more than one occasion.

That's horrible! If your name has an actual Irish translation then I can understand making you aware of it out of curiosity but forcing you to use it is just wrong. It's not an easy language to pronounce if your not used to it.

My sister has a Greek name and was told in primary school (late 80s) that there's no translation for it. Depends on your teacher I suppose.

MadsL wrote: »

She uses the Irish version of her surname herself regularly and is proud of it!

I think you (or your wife) should step in on your daughters behalf. The school with not listen to a student and the parents will always have the last say until she's 18. Sad but true.

MadsL wrote: »

Wonder what they call Adolf Hitler when teaching History? That Seosamh Stalin was a one, eh?

His name was Josef (as in Yo-seff) Stalin (Sta-Linn not Stal-lin) actually. English schools changed his first name and mispronounces his last name!! :P

Oisinjm

I really don't understand the issue. Yes, they've translated your daughter's name. They've translated everyone's name. It's what gaelscoils do. Irrespective of whether or not French schools or English schools would do the reverse, gaelscoils translate your name. You've sent your daughter here, she was obviously ok with being sent here. This is one of the rules of the school. She's not being singled out, she's not being unfairly treated. Everyone is treated the same way. If this was such a big issue for your daughter or for you at the start, why did you send her to this school? Everyone knows that your name gets translated when you attend and Irish school. It's not right or wrong, it's just what's done and what has always been done.

If from day one you had told your daughter, "sorry, but that's just the done thing in gaelscoils. You're going to have to accept it and just move on. Everyone else has", there would have been zero issue. Instead you've facilitated her strop and she's letting it get to her.

I don't see the issue at all, it's not affecting her identity. If it affected the pupils identities you'd have 600 shy, cowardly, odd children in a school

Boo2112

I really don't see the problem here but then I wouldn't see my name as being a huge part of my identity. At the end of the day I didn't get to choose it, my parents did so I wouldn't feel too much of a connection with it as if it was something I picked myself based on my personality or traits.

My Dad also insisted that we were all called Irish names so that if we ever travel we'll be recognised as Irish and be treated nicer or some crazy sh1t like that, I'd take that with a hefty pinch of salt but apparently it's why some people choose/convert to Irish names.

If it's a variation of the same name I don't see the problem. One of my neighbours wasn't allowed to be called by her anglican name 'Pearl' and was instead called Bridget for her school years. That is oppression and loss of identity but IMHO this is not.

WayneMolloy

MadsL wrote: »

That Seosamh Stalin was a one, eh?

Lenins English teacher was rumoured* to be from Ireland. I wonder what he called the bould Vlad. Hitlers half brother studied here too.

I apologise if my posts were snide btw. My snide remarks werent aimed at you - just the sort I mentioned.

* http://comeheretome.com/2012/02/03/vladimir-lenin-and-the-rathmines-accent/

Victor

Jamey wrote: »

Ha, I'm exact same. English first name and Scottish second name.

In primary school my teachers would put an Ó' in front of my second name. Then in secondary school the teachers scrapped the Ó' and replaced an "f" with a "bh" and stuck in a pointless "ú" for good measure. Every teacher had a different take on what my Irish name should be.

Although Irish wasn't as bad as Spanish in primary school for being rechristened. We did it in 5th and 6th class and were basically all given random Spanish names that had no connection whatsoever to our real names. One lad called David even got to choose his, and chose Raúl after the famous footballer.

This goes on a lot in Asia when children are learning English in primary school apparently. Some friends who have come back from teaching English in Korea have taught students named "Wayne Rooney". One particular boy who was very interested in technology called himself "Samsung Jobs"!

There is a big difference between picking a pseudonym voluntarily and having (the wrong) one imposed. One is somewhere between 'fitting-in' and peer pressure, the other cultural imperialism.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Why is she in a Gaelscoil at all then? Im not on for them, but that seems part and parcel of the "deal". She/You should also find out what your actual Irish name is and not some reverse Anglicisation "sounds like" nonsense.

You condemn English-language cultural imperialism, but then approve of Irish-language cultural imperialism.

happywithlife

Oisinjm wrote: »

I really don't understand the issue. Yes, they've translated your daughter's name. They've translated everyone's name. It's what gaelscoils do. Irrespective of whether or not French schools or English schools would do the reverse, gaelscoils translate your name. You've sent your daughter here, she was obviously ok with being sent here. This is one of the rules of the school. She's not being singled out, she's not being unfairly treated. Everyone is treated the same way. If this was such a big issue for your daughter or for you at the start, why did you send her to this school? Everyone knows that your name gets translated when you attend and Irish school. It's not right or wrong, it's just what's done and what has always been done.

If from day one you had told your daughter, "sorry, but that's just the done thing in gaelscoils. You're going to have to accept it and just move on. Everyone else has", there would have been zero issue. Instead you've facilitated her strop and she's letting it get to her.

I don't see the issue at all, it's not affecting her identity. If it affected the pupils identities you'd have 600 shy, cowardly, odd children in a school

Hear hear
Completely agree with you.

MadsL

Oisinjm wrote: »

I really don't understand the issue.

No, you don't. You are right there.

Yes, they've translated your daughter's name.

Dubiously.

They've translated everyone's name.

Sophie?? Emma?? Frederick? Mei-li?

It's what gaelscoils do. Irrespective of whether or not French schools or English schools would do the reverse, gaelscoils translate your name.

Why? How does it improve teaching through irish?

You've sent your daughter here, she was obviously ok with being sent here.

Yes, she is. Entirely deliriously happy with every aspect of the school except this.

This is one of the rules of the school.

It isn't. At least not in anything written as far as I can see.

She's not being singled out, she's not being unfairly treated. Everyone is treated the same way.

But they are not. I've already shown that.

If this was such a big issue for your daughter or for you at the start, why did you send her to this school?

Because I would be an idiot not to send her here. Where did i suggest pulling her out of the school over the issue - its a good school.

Everyone knows that your name gets translated when you attend and Irish school. It's not right or wrong, it's just what's done and what has always been done.

Like the cane and the slipper and child sexual abuse?

If from day one you had told your daughter, "sorry, but that's just the done thing in gaelscoils. You're going to have to accept it and just move on. Everyone else has", there would have been zero issue.

Except some pupils refuse, and they are not called by their Irish names. Other pupils with 'foreign' names do not get re-christened on enrollment.

Instead you've facilitated her strop and she's letting it get to her.

Strop? Only strop I can see is the one I use on my razors. She's politely asked her teachers not to do it. And goes grrr!! in her head when they don't. Where are you getting this "strop" from???

I don't see the issue at all, it's not affecting her identity. If it affected the pupils identities you'd have 600 shy, cowardly, odd children in a school

You don't see an issue because you don't actually understand it.

Mr. G

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeh, I don't get it.

Your name is your name, regardless of language. Change the language and it's not your name any more.

I second this. Your name is your name. I get why they're doing it but it may cause problems down the line on Leaving Certs and so on.

MadsL

Mr. G wrote: »

I second this. Your name is your name. I get why they're doing it but it may cause problems down the line on Leaving Certs and so on.

I asked that. Apparently that's done by number.

But, there is every chance at some point that I will have to deal with US immigration. One name on the birth cert, one name on the school records and possibly at that stage a different one on her passport (her Irish surname).

Nightmare.

Oisinjm

MadsL wrote: »

Dubiously.

If it's an incorrect translation, then there is an issue and it should be rectified. I have no issue with that. Most schools will only deal with complaints properly when they're made by the parent. At least that's how I remember it.

Sophie?? Emma?? Frederick? Mei-li?

There aren't translations for these names and they don't invent or pick new ones in these cases. I think that's fair enough.

Why? How does it improve teaching through irish?

I never said it did. I said it's what's done in these schools and you and your daughter would have known this from the outset.

It isn't. At least not in anything written as far as I can see.

Ok it's an unwritten rule then? What difference does it make if it's written down or not. It's what they do in gaelscoils.

But they are not. I've already shown that.

Anyone who's name has a direct translation is translated. Those that don't, aren't.

Because I would be an idiot not to send her here. Where did i suggest pulling her out of the school over the issue - its a good school.

It's a good school, they do a good job, the teachers are clearly good teachers and it's a good system they have in place. This is a very very minor issue a mountain is being made from a mole hill. If it's really that big an issue why have you let it go on for two years and why haven't you made an appointment with her dean/year head or principal?

Like the cane and the slipper and child sexual abuse?

Please don't compare physical and sexual abuses to this. It's in bad taste.

Except some pupils refuse, and they are not called by their Irish names.

Then make an appointment with with the year head or principal if your daughter is actually being unfairly treated. However, if your daughter is the source of this knowledge it may not actually be the case.

Strop? Only strop I can see is the one I use on my razors. She's politely asked her teachers not to do it. And goes grrr!! in her head when they don't. Where are you getting this "strop" from???

Ok, point taken. Strop was an exaggeration.

You don't see an issue because you don't actually understand it.

I do, I just disagree with you on some points.

Mr. G

MadsL wrote: »

I asked that. Apparently that's done by number.

But, there is every chance at some point that I will have to deal with US immigration. One name on the birth cert, one name on the school records and possibly at that stage a different one on her passport (her Irish surname).

Nightmare.

Actually, yes each person gets an examination number alright. If the the name is in irish on examination registration it may cause an issue though.

Another thing about this in Ireland is the birthcerts. I have no second name on mine. Names are a nightmare believe me!. Particularly getting visas and jobs abroad.

elmer

I was always very happy that my name couldn't be directly translated to some made up irish version. I pose this question:

Bilingual children who are exposed to irish tend do very well with it. These children, may in turn, have names that have absolutely nothing to do with the irish language.

should their names be translated also?

a Tomasz is not a thomas, a tomás or a seamus

what shall we translate naseem to?

When i was in college there were a certain group who went around plastering english only signs into irish only versions for a week every year. It always made me think how narrow this view was. If they spent 5 seconds longer and adapted the brainwave of plastering the signs in a bilingual version their point might have had some impact instead of them being no better than the official sign makers

Paramite Pie

Slightly off-topic here, but I was told by my Irish teacher that if your ever arrested, you should give your name in Irish (as is your right to do so).

So when your name appears in the local newspapers, people wont recognise it was you.:D

How effective this may be depends on your name. If your name is, say for example John Walsh then you'll appear in the newspapers as Eoin Breathnach.

So your boss/workmates will never know.;)

Mr. G

^ That's actually really good advice.

(If your insane)

MadsL

Oisinjm wrote: »

If it's an incorrect translation, then there is an issue and it should be rectified. I have no issue with that. Most schools will only deal with complaints properly when they're made by the parent. At least that's how I remember it.There aren't translations for these names and they don't invent or pick new ones in these cases. I think that's fair enough.I never said it did. I said it's what's done in these schools and you and your daughter would have known this from the outset. Ok it's an unwritten rule then? What difference does it make if it's written down or not. It's what they do in gaelscoils. Anyone who's name has a direct translation is translated. Those that don't, aren't. It's a good school, they do a good job, the teachers are clearly good teachers and it's a good system they have in place. This is a very very minor issue a mountain is being made from a mole hill. If it's really that big an issue why have you let it go on for two years and why haven't you made an appointment with her dean/year head or principal? Please don't compare physical and sexual abuses to this. It's in bad taste. Then make an appointment with with the year head or principal if your daughter is actually being unfairly treated. However, if your daughter is the source of this knowledge it may not actually be the case. Ok, point taken. Strop was an exaggeration. I do, I just disagree with you on some points.

I love the way when you post a thread on boards people treat your reaction as if you have self-immolated on Tara in protest. I'm posting a thread about it, that's not making a mountain out of anything. Jeez.

I guess part of the reason haven't brought it up with them is to let her fight her own battles and I think she would be mortified if I did. My location doesn't exactly make popping in an option. She complains about it though, and I don't really get why her wishes are disregarded. Traditions are not rules though. I'd like to think I raised my daughter to both respect and question tradition.

My daughter is not a liar by the way. I didn't appreciate you suggesting that she doesn't tell the truth. That's not me being naive, but she has no reason to lie about this.

Mr. G

Slightly OT, but it must be really hard on the post though!

elmer

i like that - so naseem would be gaoithe milis

MadsL

elmer wrote: »

i like that - so naseem would be gaoithe milis

NO! :mad: Naseem would be Naseem. If Naseem would like to be called gaoithe milis, fine. If not then don't do it.

Seachmall

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Slightly off-topic here, but I was told by my Irish teacher that if your ever arrested, you should give your name in Irish (as is your right to do so).

So when your name appears in the local newspapers, people wont recognise it was you.:D

How effective this may be depends on your name. If your name is, say for example John Walsh then you'll appear in the newspapers as Eoin Breathnach.

So your boss/workmates will never know.;)

Unfortunately the Gardaí will take your name directly from any ID you have on you at the time.

As has been my experience

Henlars67

HondaSami wrote: »

What is the Irish for John? Is this what the problem is, they are calling her the Irish version of her name?

Because the Irish version of someone's name isn't their name.

It's like a girl called Sarah being referred to as Sorcha.

Sorcha is the Irish version of her name, but it is most definitely not her name and she shouldn't be called it, especially if she doesn't like it.

JohnMoncton

When I was at a French school, we all used French names, and it helped with the immersion experience, and helped drive the point home that in this environment, we speak French. If there were kids who insisted on being different and going by their English names, it would have undermined the immersion in a tiny way. I would advise your daughter to play by the rules to help the other kids, who might need a little help with pronunciation or whatnot.

elmer

MadsL wrote: »

NO! :mad: Naseem would be Naseem. If Naseem would like to be called gaoithe milis, fine. If not then don't do it.

a couple of replies popped in while i was replying. I was refering to Paramite Pie's reply about telling the guards(gards/gardaí) your irish name and trying to highlight the sillyness of trying to translate a name for the sake of translating it.

Paramite Pie

Mr. G wrote: »

^ That's actually really good advice.

(If your insane)

Well my Irish teacher was....:cool: he told us all kinds of stories of his exploits/adventures in traveling.... sometimes more than actual teaching! He never gave homework either and yet my Irish was at it's best when I had him...