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Child Item

Being forced to use your "Irish" name at school

MadsL

My daughter attends a second-level gaelscoil that insists on calling her by a translation of her actual name that sound similar to her actual name but is in fact a different Irish name. She hates it and has frequently resisted it by saying to her teacher 'that's not my name'. Her teachers continually 'correct' her if she asserts that her name is her name by repeating the translated name back to her.

Should she put up with this? What does AH think?

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oldyouth

ballsymchugh wrote: »

teachers insist on a lot of things when you're in school, such as staying quiet, doing homework etc.

So being asked to do your homework is the same as taking a beating for refusing to be addressed by some name a teacher has decided to call you by?

Goodnight

ballsymchugh

oldyouth wrote: »

So being asked to do your homework is the same as taking a beating for refusing to be addressed by some name a teacher has decided to call you by?

Goodnight

yeah that's exactly what i said, nice mincing of the words there. :rolleyes:

seeya.

OP, is the issue the fact that they're translating her name, or that they're giving her the wrong irish name??

take for example, irene, could be mistaken for rionagh, which is irish for regina, but regina is clearly not irene.
took me a long time to think of names along that line!!

Miss Lockhart

The only thing that matters is what the school policy is. If this is policy then the school will not entertain objections from the student. The parents signed up to those policies and the student does not have the authority to exempt herself from them. If the parents object then they need to examine why they signed up to it and challenge it through official channels if it really bothers them.

oldyouth

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Forgive me for making assumptions, but it seems like more of an attempt to exclude someone who's clearly being disruptive in Class. The last thing most Teachers would want to deal with is a Pupil who refuses to participate in an admittedly trivial Class exercise.

So you mean to say that you honestly couldn't sit in a Classroom for half an hour and respond to a Gaelicised version of your name without coming into conflict with a Teacher?

It seems to me that if your entire faculty were in fact pedophiles, as you say, then this admittedly small concession in your Irish Class would be the least of your problems.

Wasn't being disruptive, I stated that I didn't want to be addressed by an Irish translation that other people used, I took a few clatters, wouldn't back down and was immediately excluded from class. The teacher even wrote to my mother about the incident and addressed the letter to her in an Irish version of the name

MadsL

McLoughlin wrote: »

Whats the name of the kid and Whats the name the school is using ?

Now why would I post that on the internet?

Capercaille wrote: »

OP should have given the child a proper Irish name to begin with not an English name. There would have been no problem then.

Obviously. Sure I should dye her hair too in case she looks too English.

Alaia Whining Army wrote: »

This and only this, tbh. I have an Irish first name in real life, live outside of Ireland and I barely a week goes by where I don't have to explain very slowly how to pronounce my name or which is my surname when I present my ID. It's a small price to pay, though, for keeping my own name.

Saying that, though, the OP is totally making a mountain out of a molehill with this. Just go in and explain your grievance. If they don't change their attitude after that, go ahead and cause a stink.

Errmm. I'm not. I posted a thread for debate and interest. Personally, I'd like to think that teachers have enough respect for the pupils that after being asked to do something by a pupil as a personal preference, they would do so. Or should we get kids to shut up and do as they are told or off to the Principal with you for a beating? I'm not going to go in and fight her battles for her, that's up to her and a good life lesson. However, I am disappointed that despite her standing up for herself, her teachers don't respect that.

Elessar wrote: »

Do you live in the gaeltacht?

If not why did you send your daughter to an irish speaking school in the first place?

I don't know. I was high on crack that day I guess :rolleyes:

username123 wrote: »

If I had come home from school with this complaint I would have been told to stop back cheeking teachers and focus on my education, followed by a long lecture telling me how I was lucky to be getting a good education, how when I was 18 I could decide to be called whatever I liked, and how this kind of carry on made my parents wonder why they bothered sending me to a good school seeing as I was such an ungrateful child.

Thus chastised I would have gone back in and accepted being called any name the teacher chose.

I am from an era where my parents considered the teachers authority to be of far more importance than my whinging about my identity.

In saying all that, I couldn't care less what people call me so long as I know I am being referred to.

Wow. The 1890s? As a former teacher I really hope you don't become one.

true-or-false wrote: »

No, her education can either start with her being taught that her identity is more than her name and that she needs to follow the rules of her school, or it can start with being taught that any time she has a tiny problem with an authority figure she should get her parent(s) to cause a fuss because her identity is entirely dependent on her name and authority figures are the enemy.
Great start for adulthood and learning how to get along in life.

See my comment above. I'm not going to fight that battle for her. I am however pretty disgusted that the school feel that they are the ones to make that choice. I have to say it is not all the teachers, some of them use her name correctly.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's a case that the child is the only one who has objected to the teachers. In which case, the teachers are addressing students in the manner they've been instructed to and are dealing with a disobedient student in the usual way.

She's not. One pupil refuses point blank to answer to her name translated to Irish as it is ugly sounding. She will not listen to any instruction aimed at her Irish name.

OP, the teachers aren't doing anything wrong by following the school policies. If you disagree with the policies they're following, speak to the principal about it and get him/her to instruct all the teachers that your daughter needs special treatment. But there's no need to see this as a you vs. them situation. They're not trying to insult your daughter or destroy her sense of identity.

"special treatment" ???

Miss Lockhart

As a former teacher you should know that teachers cannot ignore school policy on the say so of a student. Talking about standing up for herself and not fighting her battles is a cop out. Schools deal with parents when it comes to policy enforcement as that is who they are answerable to, as you already know as a former teacher.

The student does not have the authority to exempt herself from school policy and the school does not have the authority to exempt her without dealing with her parents.

opti0nal

If it were an English-medium school and a child had an Irish-language name, would the school be allowed to impose an anglicised version?

If they tried, I bet the Irish Language law enforcement office would be very excited.

[Deleted User]

opti0nal wrote: »

If it were an English-medium school and a child had an Irish-language name, would the school be allowed to impose an anglicised version?

If they tried, I bet the Irish Language law enforcement office would be very excited.

Exactly.

I fail to see how going to an Irish speaking school means you have to translate your name into Irish. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. If I call my kid John, his name is John. Not Eoin or Sean or whatever else some arrogant teacher decides to brand my child. Not wanting your kid's name translated doesn't mean you don't respect the language!

DarkJager

Ridiculous practice regardless of the school. You should attend the parent teacher meetings OP and translate each teachers name to Asshole. If there's any opposition, you can simply claim that's the name you'd like to call them by even if it isn't their actual name. Same game, same rules as they seem to be playing to at.

Paramite Pie

MadsL wrote: »

Does John not get to be called John if that is what is on his birth cert? If John's parents want to call him Eoin, they would have called him Eoin, no???

Different languages have different versions of the same names, John, Jean, Sean, Jón, Juan, Gianni, João, Jan ect...

Historically Eoin was the same name as John, taken from the bible and pronounced in differently as it spread from country to country. Sean varientcomes from the French Jean while Eoin comes from the Welsh Ioan (Yo-an).

Although it should be optional, and not forced as they can be considered separate names today.

The_Nipper_One wrote: »

Do they translate all the names of cities all over the planet into an Irish form as well?

Just translate the major ones into Irish I think. All languages do this. When I was in Korea they often add a 'uh' sound to the end of Western names/cities/countries.

Ireland became A-il-lan-duh. Names like David were pronounced Dae-bid-uh while Jack became Jekeu. This had something to do with a grammar/speech rule where certain consonants cannot end a word without a vowel (n, m, r,l) while others don't exist (f, tg v, z).

In Irish, letters like J are nor native to the language so there is no appropriate pronunciation for them. Of course we're all native English speakers as well so it's not an issue for modern Irish speakers.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Proper nouns like names don't translate. If I was in France my name wouldn't be translated.

I had a friend who's name Michael was pronounced 'Michelle' by the French. Alot....:P:D

(it's a guys name over there!)

[Deleted User]

Elessar wrote: »

Do you live in the gaeltacht?

If not why did you send your daughter to an irish speaking school in the first place?

Why shouldn't she?

awec

This seems the height of stupidity. A name has no real "language", your name is exactly the same in every language so this concept of having an "Irish version" of your name is flawed. The same applies if you have an Irish name.

MadsL

DarkJager wrote: »

Ridiculous practice regardless of the school. You should attend the parent teacher meetings OP and translate each teachers name to Asshole. If there's any opposition, you can simply claim that's the name you'd like to call them by even if it isn't their actual name. Same game, same rules as they seem to be playing to at.

I have attended parent teacher meetings where despite me apologising for not speaking Irish, one teacher continued in Irish until I stopped again, apologised repeated that I didn't speak Irish.

Bubosw

Haven't read all the replies but, in my case I had 1 child in a Gael scoil with an English name, they changed it to Gaeilge , then her sister started with the same name as Gaeilge. They then changed the elder child's name back to English. I love Gaeilge but, I also love the names I picked for my children and would expect them to be used accordingly:)The fourth youngest child is called by her English name with no hassle:) And, before anyone says I wasn't adventurous in the choosing of their names, I loved both names in English and Irish and they're both a variation of my name.

MadsL

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

As a former teacher you should know that teachers cannot ignore school policy on the say so of a student. Talking about standing up for herself and not fighting her battles is a cop out. Schools deal with parents when it comes to policy enforcement as that is who they are answerable to, as you already know as a former teacher.

The student does not have the authority to exempt herself from school policy and the school does not have the authority to exempt her without dealing with her parents.

The school has a policy where Irish is medium of teaching. There is no mention of changing names in the school policy.

I think it reasonable that the school respects my child's wishes as to her name. I don't think it should need a parent to fight that battle.

WayneMolloy

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

Why shouldn't she?

Places are very limited. Gaelscoils have a great reputation in this country, so getting your child into one is pretty difficult. Children, whose parents love the language, are being turned down by middle class types who couldnt give a fiddlers about it. Its funny asking these types of people as to their rational behind sending their kids to an Irish speaking school. They squirm like f*ck. Its just a coincidence that these schools experienced a massive revival at the same time as we started getting immigrants from the four corners!

Anyway, it is part of their ethos to teach everything through the language. They will translate your address, name and everything else into Irish. This is what the parents signed up for. The school should not budge on this imho.

endacl

MadsL wrote: »

I think it reasonable that the school respects my child's wishes as to her name. I don't think it should need a parent to fight that battle.

With all due respect, it may only need a parent to make it a battle.

major bill

I have a very Unionist sounding name tbh i never stood a chance in school but it always puzzled me where exactly they got the translation of my name into Irish in Primary school, Ive never been able to find it on Google convinced it was made up on the spot,

Lord TSC

I'm usually all gung-ho to have a good debate about the Irish language, but this seems to be OTT, even for me :pac:

I got called my "Irish" name in school when I was younger and never really thought all that much about it tbh. Looking back, it being an English school, it probably was silly, but then we had some mad Irish enthusiasts as teachers.

That said, if you send your kid to an Irish school, then chances are that's going to happen. The entire point of the Irish schools is that they try and conduct everything possible in the Irish language.

If it's really an issue, then it's up to the parent to ring the school and ask for an appointment to discuss it with the teacher. If it's really such a major issue, then ask the teacher and the school to call your kid the "proper" name. I'd imagine if you, as a parent, go in and ask for that, they'll oblige, however grudgingly.

But it's up to the parent to speak up for their child in this case. To be blunt, I hate this notion of "kids need to fight their own battles", especially when the battle is with a teacher and a school's ethos. A child has zero power in that situation, and encouraging them to fight their own battle will likely just have the teacher thinking they are a problem-kid. This is your child. If it's an issue, back her up.

Artful_Badger

Take the kid out of pretend backwards school and send them somewhere more concerned with education than dead old bollox languages.

WayneMolloy

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Take the kid out of pretend backwards school and send them somewhere more concerned with education than dead old bollox languages.

The thing is, these pretend backward schools are leaving the rest in the halfpenny place when it comes to results.

That is why people who dislike the language send their kids there.

bodice ripper

When I went to primary school in the 80s tried to make me use an Irish translation of my name. It was humiliating, in part because I had a hard time pronouncing it, and in part because it wasn't my name.I was made a show of in front of the class on more than one occasion.

Thankfully my parents were having none of it. To be honest the whole thing was pure xenophobic bull**** that was seeming just fine since I was born in the US.

Doublelime

I used to go to a "wannabe" Irish secondary school and if your name was Mohammad or Tyrone the teachers would just call you your normal name. They would call people by their Irish name if it was actually and Irish name in the 1st place. Ain't nobody got time to learn to respond to an inaccurate Irish name.

Gatling

Most people here seem to have no actual experience of a Irish school ,
Fight the power attitude's wonder why teenagers demand they be feared oh I mean respected ,

Don't get why send a child to a school and demand the school bends to a child's demand ,
Its the same as sending kids to Catholic schools and demand there excluded from religion

MadsL

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Places are very limited. Gaelscoils have a great reputation in this country, so getting your child into one is pretty difficult. Children, whose parents love the language, are being turned down by middle class types who couldnt give a fiddlers about it. Its funny asking these types of people as to their rational behind sending their kids to an Irish speaking school. They squirm like f*ck. Its just a coincidence that these schools experienced a massive revival at the same time as we started getting immigrants from the four corners!

Anyway, it is part of their ethos to teach everything through the language. They will translate your address, name and everything else into Irish. This is what the parents signed up for. The school should not budge on this imho.

I am not going to reveal details of family history on this thread but there is a huge Irish literary tradition in my daughters family background, and fluent irish speakers stretching back generations.

Take your assumptions elsewhere please. She's objecting to her given name being changed, not the ethos. If changing names is part of some ethos in your view then the school must have some inferiority complex.

She uses the Irish version of her surname herself regularly and is proud of it!

Paramite Pie

awec wrote: »

This seems the height of stupidity. A name has no real "language", your name is exactly the same in every language so this concept of having an "Irish version" of your name is flawed. The same applies if you have an Irish name.

That's not enirely true. If that's the case the why is my mother named Mary, should we use the Aramaic form (Maryām) instead? It is the original version after all...

People have been translating names across Europe for hundreds of years. I do agree that it shouldn't be forced but many names like John have dozens of variants as certain languages don't have certain 'sounds' in them.

Pick up any medieval text (like the bible) in any language, and all the names are different in each one.

[Deleted User]

MadsL wrote: »

She's not. One pupil refuses point blank to answer to her name translated to Irish as it is ugly sounding. She will not listen to any instruction aimed at her Irish name.

If you look at the post I quoted, I wasn't referring to other students, I meant you. As in the school doesn't yet know that you disagree with it, so as far as they know they're following your wishes.

"special treatment" ???

Well having all the students' names translated into/replaced by something Irish, except for certain students, is exactly that. A parent's note asking that one child be exempt from the usual treatment is special treatment. I don't mean anything by use of the term; if an asthmatic student needs to be allowed to step out of class to use their inhaler, that's special treatment - it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.

MadsL

Gatling wrote: »

Most people here seem to have no actual experience of a Irish school ,
Fight the power attitude's wonder why teenagers demand they be feared oh I mean respected ,

Don't get why send a child to a school and demand the school bends to a child's demand ,
Its the same as sending kids to Catholic schools and demand there excluded from religion

Come back to me on that one when there is a choice in all areas!!

Solair

I'd just call all of her teachers Peig or Gobnait regardless of what their name actually is and see how they like it.

MadsL

true-or-false wrote: »

If you look at the post I quoted, I wasn't referring to other students, I meant you. As in the school doesn't yet know that you disagree with it, so as far as they know they're following your wishes.

If we had wanted a girl with an Irish name, would we have not given her one??
Her name has Hebrew, Romanian and Irish root forms.

Well having all the students' names translated into/replaced by something Irish, except for certain students, is exactly that. A parent's note asking that one child be exempt from the usual treatment is special treatment. I don't mean anything by use of the term; if an asthmatic student needs to be allowed to step out of class to use their inhaler, that's special treatment - it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.

Does a girl called Esther get special treatment then? or Sophie?