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am i suited to a career in computer programming?

jsmit

Let me apologise immediately, I will say things here which I would be ashamed to say to someone's face, what I do say is only because it has been bothering me nearly constantly for years now and I think not saying them is a large part of the reason I have this problem. I know its far far too long so any answer to any part is appreciated.

I finished college 2 years ago. I don't want to be too specific but I did a catch up post graduate IT course. I have applied for some jobs, got one interview, think my doubt about the career was the reason I didn't get it and my 2.2 is the reason I didn't get any other interviews. I would say 98% of the reason I did the post grad was because I heard there were plentiful jobs but two weeks into it all the doubts outlined below started knawing at me and they haven't stopped since. I don't know if I did poorly in it because I'm unsuited or because I was unsure about it.

On the positive side.

I always had an interest and a decent but not exceptional aptitude for maths.

I enjoy solving problems.

I like the idea of the independent creative aspect. What I mean by that is that I like the idea of being given a task and being creative to fulfill that task.

I don't like to interact with people unless they're already a friend. Just the way I've always been.

I find the science behind computers fascinating ie the history of the development, turing machines ,ai , evolutionary computation etc.

I would love to work at home

Negatives.

I find programming languages very boring. I know 5 and I find learning them to be extremely dull. I hated human languages at school because it was just dull rote learning and I see computer languages as no different.

I find it frustrating. I have spent many angry hours starring at code looking for a poorly placed punctuation mark while my blood pressure rose. I find little satisfaction when I figure it out, just a sense of wasted time.

I'm not terrible but I'm certainly not good. I got Cs in everything except ai and a basic algorithm design class.

I will never dedicate my spare time to it. I refuse to spend my precious weekends and personal time on something that I'm not naturally interested in. Again I apologise for this, I know this sounds petulant but I would be lying if I didn't say this was an issue

I don't think it pays very well for the massive effort involved. To me it seems like a job where you work ten times harder than the others in the same pay bracket. I especially apologise for this.

I think it may actually involve more interaction with people than I would be comfortable with. I keep reading that it involves working in a close knit team with constant interaction within the team. I know this is an unavoidable part of life but since I got into the area to avoid this nonsense it drains a lot of the good out of it for me.

I think it's unlikely I'll get a job working at home. From what I've read only the very talented get that freedom and even then after a decade or more in the office.

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razor2013

jsmit wrote: »

I find programming languages very boring. I know 5 and I find learning them to be extremely dull. I hated human languages at school because it was just dull rote learning and I see computer languages as no different.

I find it frustrating. I have spent many angry hours starring at code looking for a poorly placed punctuation mark while my blood pressure rose. I find little satisfaction when I figure it out, just a sense of wasted time.

I'm not terrible but I'm certainly not good. I got Cs in everything except ai and a basic algorithm design class.

I will never dedicate my spare time to it. I refuse to spend my precious weekends and personal time on something that I'm not naturally interested in. Again I apologise for this, I know this sounds petulant but I would be lying if I didn't say this was an issue
.

You sound like you don't want to do programming. I think you should try something else. If you want to stay in the IT world, you could try web design (with something like Dreameaver/Illustrator you can worry more about design and less about code. Also there's the freelance option that means you can be your own boss), or maybe become an IT manager.

Programming takes a lot of practice to get to grips with. It requires a lot of extra reading and effort. There are probably less (intellectually) intensive careers out there that are more financially rewarding. However programming is class! I find it very logical and straightforward.

Smoggy

razor2013 wrote: »

or maybe become an IT manager.

This sounds like an awful idea for someone who isnt comfortable with social circumstances and wants to work at home.

Smoggy

jsmit wrote: »

I always had an interest and a decent but not exceptional aptitude for maths.

I enjoy solving problems.

I like the idea of the independent creative aspect. What I mean by that is that I like the idea of being given a task and being creative to fulfill that task.

I don't like to interact with people unless they're already a friend. Just the way I've always been.

I find the science behind computers fascinating ie the history of the development, turing machines ,ai , evolutionary computation etc.

Maybe IT support. In many jobs support will be by the phone and then by remote PC access. Working from home is highly unlikely though. Not many jobs will let you work from home straight off. It takes a lot of trust for the employer to do this.

Feathers

jsmit wrote: »

I find programming languages very boring. I know 5 and I find learning them to be extremely dull. I hated human languages at school because it was just dull rote learning and I see computer languages as no different.

I find it frustrating. I have spent many angry hours starring at code looking for a poorly placed punctuation mark while my blood pressure rose. I find little satisfaction when I figure it out, just a sense of wasted time.

I'm not terrible but I'm certainly not good. I got Cs in everything except ai and a basic algorithm design class.

I will never dedicate my spare time to it. I refuse to spend my precious weekends and personal time on something that I'm not naturally interested in. Again I apologise for this, I know this sounds petulant but I would be lying if I didn't say this was an issue

I don't think it pays very well for the massive effort involved. To me it seems like a job where you work ten times harder than the others in the same pay bracket. I especially apologise for this.

I think it may actually involve more interaction with people than I would be comfortable with. I keep reading that it involves working in a close knit team with constant interaction within the team. I know this is an unavoidable part of life but since I got into the area to avoid this nonsense it drains a lot of the good out of it for me.

I think it's unlikely I'll get a job working at home. From what I've read only the very talented get that freedom and even then after a decade or more in the office.

You find it boring, unrewarding when you solve a problem, you don't have a natural interest in it & think it pays too little. So far, there's little that would be swaying me towards applying.

With your positives, I'd say that while there may be some truth to the socially awkward developer stereotype (as in, most I know wouldn't be good in roles in contract negotiation or used-car saleman), you still have to talk to each other — collaboration is a huge part of the business. Without it, you'll get stuck in projects that are too small for more than one developer (i.e. the boring projects). Same goes for working from home in a lot of agencies IMO.

jsmit

I just want to clarify some things.

I don't think it's badly paid but I do think the pay to pain ratio is bad. I know people in jobs with similar pay or higher who don't seem to work nearly as hard. If programmers were paid as much as they work I wouldn't be making this point.

I like solving problems but hate correcting code syntax, I think most people would agree it's mind numbing.

I could be deluding myself but I don't think my issue is with the intellectual challenge, I think a different set of problems would be unleashed if I operated dream weaver for a living.

I'm unqualified for support, the course I did only covered software design and I'm glad of it because as I think is clear from above I'm not comfortable with human interaction.

I can manage social interaction but would rather avoid it. I think i could handle hello and what do i do next but the issue for me is when it gets to office politics and superficial friendships with people you would never chose to be around, would I be left alone the majority of the time? Is there any realistically attainable job where you'll be left alone?

Is it absolutely essential in this career that it eats your free time? I want to have fun in my life and programming will always feel like work.

Do you guys have people who work with you who hate it?

BrokenArrows

Unfortunatly as a programmer you need to interact with people.
Whether it be directly with the customer to find out what they need or the person who is managing the project.

Its very rare to be given a project and deliver it exactly as the spec is defined. As a programmer (well in my case anyway) i constantly get specs for work and it looks fine on paper but when it comes to actually developing it you may realise that a certain feature just doesnt make sense. So you need to go back to the customer and get further information to figure out exactly what they wanted.

As for fixing "syntax" errors like missing semicolons. They are not as difficult to spot in modern developer environments. As an example in Visual Studio it will correct you as you type so you will notice straight away if there is a syntax error in the line you just wrote.

But all this is pointless since you stated that "I find programming languages very boring. "

If you dont like the work then you will never last in the job regardless of how good you are at it.

Mr. G

I personally love it. You know that feeling when you just see it works correctly? That. If you like the satisfaction out of seeing something work well for you, go ahead and try it. If you don't see any satisfaction out of it, and find it tedious and frustrating, maybe its not for you.

I hated doing foreign languages. Bored me to hell.

There's more to IT than programming. Maybe look at doing web design or something as mentioned above, might like it more.

jsmit

Probably shouldn't have said syntax but in my experience I consistently make subtle errors that I have to repair. I'd say that when I'm programming anything complex I spend about 70% of my time looking through code for errors, this is what I hate, is this unusual?

How much interaction with the team are we talking about? I'd obviously like to avoid it all but do you mean just checking in with your boss or teammate for a few minutes scattered throughout the day or do you mean constantly consulting with each other? Basically I want to know how much alone time do you get? Is it most of the time or is it a rarity? Will you get by if your not willing to socialise outside of work? Or in work for that matter, by this I mean pretending you care what someone's kid is up to or how drunk they were at the weekend or if they like the wire

Smoggy

jsmit wrote: »

Probably shouldn't have said syntax but in my experience I consistently make subtle errors that I have to repair. I'd say that when I'm programming anything complex I spend about 70% of my time looking through code for errors, this is what I hate, is this unusual?

That's how my degree and early career started. You quickly get to learn the language and understand what syntax is required and why the complier is moaning at you

Feathers

jsmit wrote: »

Basically I want to know how much alone time do you get? Is it most of the time or is it a rarity? Will you get by if your not willing to socialise outside of work? Or in work for that matter, by this I mean pretending you care what someone's kid is up to or how drunk they were at the weekend or if they like the wire

We do pair programming in work a lot (so two keyboards, two mice, one computer); on top of this, we've regular stand-ups and maybe another hour of meetings per day. It's rare that I'd get more than a quarter of a day on my own, though every place is different.

Also, its a problem if you don't like The Wire (not as a programmer, just for life in general - get that checked out

)

jmcc

Is your primary degree a CS or engineering degree? A postgraduate conversion course might have been over-promising if it made out that you would become a hardcore programmer from just taking the course.

It takes a few years (for most people) before they can actually "think" in a programming language. However it could be that the way that people are taught programming languages prevents them becoming "fluent" in that language because they have to learn the basics of multiple languages throughout whatever CS course they take. Learning the basics of a computer language, when you have a solid background in programming, only takes a few hours. Becoming competent in that language takes longer. Programming languages are tools. You choose the right tool for the job rather than treating every job as a nail and using something like Java as a hammer. As regards learning these languages or coding techniques, it is a challenge and the kind of mind that thrives on challenges is often the kind of mind that finds programming easier initially.

Just because you've picked up the basics of a computer language in college, it does not follow that you are fluent in that language and this might be what is the most frustrating for someone starting programming professionally. It gets back to being able to "think" in a language. Most programmers go through a newbie/larval stage where they can barely write a few lines of code without error. Some of this might be down to never having been properly thought how to code complex projects. Surprisingly it is as simple as figuring out what you have to do, figuring out how to do it and then doing it. However it is more likely part of the learning process.

As with ordinary languages, your fluency will improve as you use the language. And the more you screw up, the more you learn. The more you learn, the fewer mistakes you should make. However it does take time.

A lot of people think that they have what it takes to work from home or, perhaps, be self-employed. The problem with that is that it requires levels of self-discipline and intellectual self-sufficiency of which the average person is completely incapable.

Regards...jmcc

Media999

Without even reading your post ill say this. I started a degree course in software with 100 others. After 6 months theres 15 left.

Unless youre determined dont even bother. It takes a lot to study from 9am to 11pm every night. Maths is nothing to do with it either. Its all logic not log tables. add, subtract, divide and multiply is as difficult as it gets.

Its like the biggest Lego set in the world with no limits. True story.

joetoad

I did programming for two years after college and I Absoloutly hated it. Working to tight deadlines, idiots over the phone, trying to solve problems nearly made me break a laptop one day and was going home with headaches and work was actually making me depressed.

I decided to get into networking and network security and I love every minute of it. It took me a while to get the CCNA CCNP and MCSE but worth it along with a couple of other certs.

F**K programming :cool: wasn't suited to it and all!

djpbarry

jsmit wrote: »

I find programming languages very boring.

Then there is absolutely no way you're going to enjoy a career in programming and I think you know that already.

jsmit wrote: »

I don't think it's badly paid but I do think the pay to pain ratio is bad. I know people in jobs with similar pay or higher who don't seem to work nearly as hard.

The key word there is "seem". You don't really know how hard other people work for their money.

jsmit wrote: »

...I'm not comfortable with human interaction.

There are very, very few jobs that do not involve interacting with other people - it's a part of life.

jsmit wrote: »

Will you get by if your not willing to socialise outside of work? Or in work for that matter, by this I mean pretending you care what someone's kid is up to or how drunk they were at the weekend or if they like the wire

Regardless of what you do, unless you are truly exceptional at it, you are going to struggle to get anywhere if you make it obvious that you want to be left alone. Apart from anything else, you'll find it very difficult to learn and/or develop in the absence of input from others. I would suggest that you seriously consider speaking to a professional about your unwillingness to interact with others, because I think it's going to be a major obstacle for you.

ChRoMe

Media999 wrote: »

Maths is nothing to do with it either. Its all logic not log tables. add, subtract, divide and multiply is as difficult as it gets.

Its like the biggest Lego set in the world with no limits. True story.

Well yeah.... kinda.

It depends on what sort of development you are involved with. Doing web development or general business applications, yeah very little to no maths required. In other embedded fields for example there can be quite a lot.

The lego analogy works.

SalteeDog

ChRoMe wrote: »

The lego analogy works.

I guess it does...as I tell my kids when their latest construction falls apart, Lego is easy to make and easy to break.

Colonel Panic

Media999 wrote: »

Without even reading your post ill say this. I started a degree course in software with 100 others. After 6 months theres 15 left.

Unless youre determined dont even bother. It takes a lot to study from 9am to 11pm every night. Maths is nothing to do with it either. Its all logic not log tables. add, subtract, divide and multiply is as difficult as it gets.

Its like the biggest Lego set in the world with no limits. True story.

:eek:

Basic programming needs basic maths, sure, but that's only the beginning.

Media999

Colonel Panic wrote: »

:eek:

Basic programming needs basic maths, sure, but that's only the beginning.

To a certain extent.

I dont really mean a person can be brutal at maths and be a good programmer. Im just sayin that you dont need to be a master mathematician to be a programmer which people often assume.

More important is the ability to think logically, be able to break problems down into chunks and have a wide understanding of the various technologies and frameworks involved.

As a programmer you are much more likely to have to implement an existing algorithm than devise an entirely new one. Need to work out, say, compound interest? You don't need to figure it out yourself, just look-up the formula and apply it. Most of the problems have already been solved, you just need to know how to implement the solutions in your language of choice. That's not to say that being good at maths wouldn't be an advantage; it's just that it isn't totally essential.

jimmycrackcorm

QA might be an interesting option if you don't like programming, though some QA might involve a bit of scripting for automation but not necessarily.

Also business analysis is another that can bridge the gap between the tech side and non tech.

Colonel Panic

Media999 wrote: »

To a certain extent.

I dont really mean a person can be brutal at maths and be a good programmer. Im just sayin that you dont need to be a master mathematician to be a programmer which people often assume.

More important is the ability to think logically, be able to break problems down into chunks and have a wide understanding of the various technologies and frameworks involved.

As a programmer you are much more likely to have to implement an existing algorithm than devise an entirely new one. Need to work out, say, compound interest? You don't need to figure it out yourself, just look-up the formula and apply it. Most of the problems have already been solved, you just need to know how to implement the solutions in your language of choice. That's not to say that being good at maths wouldn't be an advantage; it's just that it isn't totally essential.

"Master mathematician" is your choice of words, not mine!

It just depends on the type of programming you're Doing. Flinging frameworks at problem and stamping an issue into Google without understanding the domain is widespread but it doesn't mean it's right and will only get you so far.

I see junior devs do it all the time and they think they know everything. I'm not saying I'm some wonder developer, I'm build on the work of incredibly smart people.

Plus, logic and algorithms are more mathematics than they are programming.

xxyyzz

Media999 wrote: »

To a certain extent.

I dont really mean a person can be brutal at maths and be a good programmer. Im just sayin that you dont need to be a master mathematician to be a programmer which people often assume.

More important is the ability to think logically, be able to break problems down into chunks and have a wide understanding of the various technologies and frameworks involved.

As a programmer you are much more likely to have to implement an existing algorithm than devise an entirely new one. Need to work out, say, compound interest? You don't need to figure it out yourself, just look-up the formula and apply it. Most of the problems have already been solved, you just need to know how to implement the solutions in your language of choice. That's not to say that being good at maths wouldn't be an advantage; it's just that it isn't totally essential.

I would say knowing set theory/relational algebra is very helpful to know if you are working with relational databases.

stevenmu

I think you don't necessarily need to know a lot of maths to be a programmer, but having an aptitude for it helps. If you're the type of person who can easily pick up mathematical concepts, then you will pick up programming concepts more easily, and if you enjoy maths problems then you are more likely to enjoy programming. At a computer science level, programming is really just applied maths any way.

Regarding personal interactions, there are many different types of developer roles out there. Many will involve working tightly with a team of other developers, or even pair programming. But equally, many will have you developing on your own. Most will have a lot of interaction with either managers, users and/or customers. Some will let you sit in a corner or back room somewhere working away with hardly any interaction with any one, but these are increasingly rare, and if you do find this type of role there would be no progression or advancement likely.

Like with almost every career, you will need some level of personal interaction to get anywhere, and in general the better you manage your personal interactions the more you will advance in your career.

Colonel Panic

xxyyzz wrote: »

I would say knowing set theory/relational algebra is very helpful to know if you are working with relational databases.

Bigtime. It's the difference between a single query or stored procedure taking a few milliseconds plus the time to fetch the data versus literally minutes processing a few hundred thousand items because the developer just sees an SQL database as a fancy store for delimited data.

I wish I was exaggerating, I've seen it happy over and over. Things are fine for the small dataset the code is tested with (without any proper timings done) then it goes out to a client and in come the complaints.

Earthhorse

Is there a chance you are being a touch harsh on yourself OP?

You say you don't like programming languages and to be honest I don't see the problem with that. I don't particularly like them either; I have ones I favour over others but there are quirks in each that annoy me. Also, programming languages are not intrinsically interesting (in my opinion they aren't anyway), it's more what I can do with them that's appealing.

You also say that you've spent hours looking at a screen to solve a problem only to walk away with a sense of time wasted. Honestly, I've been there and I will be again. It's part and parcel of it if you ask me. Maybe not for everyone but for me it is. There are just times when you can't see it and something small has such huge ramifications and you've maybe even seen it before and you end up just kicking yourself and there's no point in lying to yourself and saying that's satisfying; it's not. It's deeply frustrating. But the incidence of this goes down over time the more you use a language (particularly if you push yourself to build "bigger" things each time with that language) and, I would say, with the number of languages you learn. It doesn't disappear entirely though.

jsmit wrote: »

I can manage social interaction but would rather avoid it. I think i could handle hello and what do i do next but the issue for me is when it gets to office politics and superficial friendships with people you would never chose to be around, would I be left alone the majority of the time? Is there any realistically attainable job where you'll be left alone?

I think if you want to be left totally, completely, unreservedly alone then you have to work for yourself and probably doing something like games for the mass market where you don't have to consult with a client. In short, I don't think there are many jobs that really fit that description.

As for office politics, well yes, it's a real thing but don't let it be a bogeyman for you. It goes on but it's not like some parody of ancient Rome where people are going around knifing each other in the back, sneaking and conspiring to bring each other down. You'll have to say more than "Hello" and "What do I do next?" but if you have a problem with that, if you really don't think you'll be able to do it, then I would view it as an opportunity for growth. As "corporate speak" as that sounds, I mean it. We all grow as people throughout our lives and I get you have a dislike for social interaction but no matter what job you do there'll likely be more than "Hello" and "What do I do next?".

Is it absolutely essential in this career that it eats your free time? I want to have fun in my life and programming will always feel like work.

Work will always be work. I do enjoy programming and problem solving but some of the code I'm asked to maintain is not enjoyable to work on. That's work and that's life. It's not like that all the time but it is like that some of the time.

Do you guys have people who work with you who hate it?

Yeah, of course. And you're going to encounter that no matter what line of work you enter. And you'll acquire the skills to handle these people; you will. Have a little faith in yourself.

Honestly, I think many of the anxieties you're expressing here are perfectly normal to have about entering the workforce (or re-entering it in a new profession). There is some programming specific stuff that may indicate it's not your dream job but unless there's something else you see as a much better candidate I'd be inclined to give it a go and see what you think. You might find working on real apps more rewarding than college projects. And you may find that not all offices are such bad places and that the friendships you make there needn't be forced and superficial but can be real and rewarding both personally and professionally.

Estragon

I keep reading that it involves working in a close knit team with constant interaction within the team. I know this is an unavoidable part of life but since I got into the area to avoid this nonsense it drains a lot of the good out of it for me.

If I may, I might suggest that thinking about your attitudes to work, as well as relationships might be useful. You sound very sure of things you do not enjoy, like working with other people and interacting socially. I wonder if you have convinced yourself that working in a team as well as general human interaction is something much worse than it really is. Perhaps you might look into some techniques that might help you enjoy these aspects of work more, rather than focussing on finding a career in which you can avoid them.

I suggest CBT, through which you can develop more positive attitudes and habits that allow you to embrace challenges rather than fear them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

Mindfulness can be a great tool that helps people to deal with the stresses of life, as well as their own anxieties. This is a lovely starter book.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wherever-You-There-Are-Mindfulness/dp/0749925485/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1364996888&sr=8-4

Maybe you could also try some counselling. I do not mean to make any assumptions about you as a person, but I think given what you write it would be well worth the time it takes to investigate some of these options. On a personal level, mindfulness has become a very important part of my own life having faced my own specific set of life challenges over the last couple of years.

Tom407

Found this thread very helpful.

I'm considering going back to college to do a Software Design course. Like jsmit I enjoy problem solving, very good at maths...etc. Working with others doesn't bother me. In fact I would probably prefer a situation with more interaction with others. I did one year of an IT degree a few years ago and really enjoyed it. Due to other reasons had to pack it in. I have a basic knowledge of C and JAVA. I know I'd enjoy the course and pretty sure I'd enjoy the work that would come after, that's not the problem. My questions are...

I'll be 33 when I finish the course; am I mad starting out on a computer programming career? (others the same age, competing for the same jobs will have 8-10 years more experience than me.)

Are the first few years in a job going to be 12+ hours a day programming? Not that I'm afraid of hard work or deadlines (I've spent the last few years working in a pretty stressful environment).... just at this stage I'd like to be getting away from working long hours and weekends...

Realistically, how many years before a manager's job / project managers job might be on the cards? (obviously loads of factors to consider here.... ballpark? min-max?)

djpbarry

Tom407 wrote: »

I'll be 33 when I finish the course; am I mad starting out on a computer programming career? (others the same age, competing for the same jobs will have 8-10 years more experience than me.)

Why would you be applying for jobs that require 8-10 years experience?

I don't think finishing a degree in your early thirties is going to be a major issue - if it's what you want to do, then go for it. I have a 32-year-old friend who only recently finished an engineering degree and she's now working for a pretty high-profile consultancy.

Tom407

I didn't mean I would be applying for jobs that require lots of experience. I just meant would it be a big deal that colleagues the same age as me would have a big head start on me? You've answered that though. At the end of the day it's just down to whether I really want to do it or not...

stevenmu

Tom407 wrote: »

I didn't mean I would be applying for jobs that require lots of experience. I just meant would it be a big deal that colleagues the same age as me would have a big head start on me? You've answered that though. At the end of the day it's just down to whether I really want to do it or not...

One of the big problems with developers fresh out of college is that they might be technically very good, but they often have very little business sense/acumen. Depending on what you have been doing up to now, you could very possibly leverage it to your advantage.

If you have experience of working in teams, can demonstrate good communication skills and practices, or better yet have some management/team lead experience, that can be a plus. If you have experience of business analysis, creating and/or documenting processes, that can be really useful. If you have customer facing experience, again that's very helpful, especially if it covers anything like requirements gathering and/or solution design. Lastly, if you have any particular domain experience, e.g. if you worked in the financial industry, or the medical industry, or were a travelling salesman, then that would give you a huge leg up if you were applying to companies that target those markets.

The Corinthian

jsmit wrote: »

I think it may actually involve more interaction with people than I would be comfortable with. I keep reading that it involves working in a close knit team with constant interaction within the team. I know this is an unavoidable part of life but since I got into the area to avoid this nonsense it drains a lot of the good out of it for me.

I think it's unlikely I'll get a job working at home. From what I've read only the very talented get that freedom and even then after a decade or more in the office.

Programming, IT in general or any other industry; I suspect you're going to find it very difficult to find any job that allows for that level of social hermitage.