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Child Item

Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

aloyisious

I'm a little bit worried about this latest move in the ongoing face-off between the Minister, the Garda Commissioner and the GSaI. While it may have been an affront to the dignity of the Minister and the Commisssioner for the four Sgts to get up and walk out of their conference when those two worthies appeared on the conference stage, and there might be something in the Garda Regulations to cover an act of direct ill-discipline by any Garda to the Minister or the Commissioner, I personally don's see any member of a union or Rep Body conference leaving it in peaceful silent protest when some-one he/she doesn't wish to listen to enter's as being anything other than a peaceful objection, unless it is now obligatory under statute law to attend such a conference at all times.

I'd be alarmed at the thought that the two senior members of the establishment above are picking a row with the Garda representative bodies, particularly if it's an attempt to provoke some sort of Blue-Flu incident, or worse. Mr Shatter is also the Minister for Defence and I've felt it wrong for one minister to hold both (Defence of the Republic) portfolios, seeing as how, if there was some sort of major Govt/Garda rep Body clash, the Army could be called into service on the streets if there was a sudden lack of Gardai there.

I hear that there would be an SC on any disciplinary Board set up to listen and rule in any case against the four Sgts, so hopefully he/she would advise that it would be unseemly, de jure and de facto, for the Minister or Commissioner to proceed against anpone walking out of a conference.

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Larbre34

I heard John Redmond of AGSI on the radio a few weeks ago, and decided he was a bit of an eejit. However his response to the threat of disciplinary action against the 4 sergeants is to be applauded.

"We are absolutely four-square behind those members," he said. "It is despicable to threaten those hard-working members with discipline for bringing the views of their membership to the attention of the national executive and the delegates of this conference.

"It is a disgraceful way to treat people who are trying to engage with management on the welfare and pay and conditions of members, who are working hard day in and day out in rural Ireland. It is disgraceful."

Indo online today.

dj jarvis

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The were barred from the talks so how could they have waqlked out when they were never allowed in?
Ah, dont bother answering, shure why let the truth get in the way of your misrepresentative rant, Mr Shatter!

they were allowed in and chose not to - how is that shatter spin

and if you read my first post - i said i agree with them, but the job is the job
they knew this in templemore - now crying about it - well tough

does nobody understand that for a functioning security service to work they MUST be above all this, as individuals they have the power of the ballot box and the ability to resign.

But while they are serving members they should not and can not been seen to rebel or strike in anyway.

Lelantos

dj jarvis wrote: »

well that quote there ends my debate with you

when you are back in the real world, drop me a line,
dont have time for this hyperbole.

Funnily enough, I don't have time for corrupt politicians & their cronies, that's understated btw,the hyperbole is all your own

HondaSami

dj jarvis wrote: »

they were allowed in and chose not to - how is that shatter spin

and if you read my first post - i said i agree with them, but the job is the job
they knew this in templemore - now crying about it - well tough

does nobody understand that for a functioning security service to work they MUST be above all this, as individuals they have the power of the ballot box and the ability to resign.

But while they are serving members they should not and can not been seen to rebel or strike in anyway.

I thought they were allowed sit in another room and get fed information, they were not allowed into the talks, could be wrong here.
Majority of people can only take so much crap AGS are no different imo, they have had enough cuts.

Boombastic

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The were barred from the talks so how could they have waqlked out when they were never allowed in?
Ah, dont bother answering, shure why let the truth get in the way of your misrepresentative rant, Mr Shatter!

:rolleyes:

AGSI HAS NOT RETURNED TO PAY TALKS

It has come to notice that AGSI is rumoured to have returned to pay talks on Croke Park. This is entirely false. AGSI has not returned to Croke Park / Extension talks or briefings or negotiations.

The Justice Minister Alan Shatter has said he is very disappointed that middle-ranking gardaí have walked away from talks on an extension to the Croke Park Agreement.

Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, which has about 2,000 members, confirmed it was pulling out of talks

AGSI pulls out of Croke Park talks

darkhorse

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Do you understand why loyalty and discipline are essential in organisations like AGS and the DF?

Loyalty has to work both ways.

SEPT 23 1989

60,000 a year(and the rest) and 600 a week pension(2 million input if they were a private sector worker) when they retire in their 50's

get off the fcuking stage:mad:

dj jarvis

Lelantos wrote: »

Funnily enough, I don't have time for corrupt politicians & their cronies, that's understated btw,the hyperbole is all your own

no no - again your are mistaken

i am pointing out the law of the land , the constitution and the oath garda take when joining up,
all of these must be upheld and enforced

you are just shouting populist anti government slogans but ignoring the truth of the matter,

you talk of corrupt politicians, but if the garda do strike they are also corrupting the state and the law , but its ok in your eyes to pick and choose who and what laws can be broken?

If you think that the politicians should be sacked - then make it so at the next elections
If you think they should be arrested and tried in a court of law, then the new politicians you elected to the dail can enact new laws to make this happen , and who will enforce this ?

The garda

my 3rd time saying this - you look like you are not getting it,
I AGREE WITH THE GARDA - they are getting a rough deal,
BUT - they can not do what they are doing, it weakens the force and the laws they stand for - regardless of what you think of politicians

They of all people must obey the law as it stands.

HondaSami

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

60,000 a year(and the rest) and 600 a week pension(2 million input if they were a private sector worker) when they retire in their 50's

get off the fcuking stage:mad:

I'm mad too with this figure, is it accurate? after all deductions?

VinLieger

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

60,000 a year(and the rest) and 600 a week pension(2 million input if they were a private sector worker) when they retire in their 50's

get off the fcuking stage:mad:

BEFORE TAX, with the USC and other taxes their real earnings are close to 50% of that, also does the fact that they put themselves at risk everday to protect us not give them the right to retire a bit early than everyone else?

dj jarvis

HondaSami wrote: »

I thought they were allowed sit in another room and get fed information, they were not allowed into the talks, could be wrong here.
Majority of people can only take so much crap AGS are no different imo, they have had enough cuts.

i agree with you

but cold facts are the garda and army cant - simple as , end of

they knew this when signing up - its that way for a VERY important reason

VinLieger

dj jarvis wrote: »

i agree with you

but cold facts are the garda and army cant - simple as , end of

they knew this when signing up - its that way for a VERY important reason

Yes but am i wrong in that but the reason they werent allowed in is only because theres a law against them striking or taking similar action? And the government thought they could control them?

darkhorse

DwightSchrute1 wrote: »

Well you do make a very valid point :rolleyes:

No, he/she/ does'nt. The Gardai have to pay mortgages the same as the rest of us. They also have to feed their families. They have a right to expect their grieviances to be heard. Its time the public woke up to this governments strategic plan of divide and conquer.

HondaSami

Boombastic wrote: »

:rolleyes:

AGSI HAS NOT RETURNED TO PAY TALKS

It has come to notice that AGSI is rumoured to have returned to pay talks on Croke Park. This is entirely false. AGSI has not returned to Croke Park / Extension talks or briefings or negotiations.

The Justice Minister Alan Shatter has said he is very disappointed that middle-ranking gardaí have walked away from talks on an extension to the Croke Park Agreement.

Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, which has about 2,000 members, confirmed it was pulling out of talks

AGSI pulls out of Croke Park talks

Just to clarify their position in the talks

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=garda%20not%20in%20pay%20talks%20croke%20park&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CE8QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.donegaldaily.com%2F2013%2F03%2F01%2Fwe-were-excluded-from-croke-park-ii-talks-says-garda-union-boss%2F&ei=HxZTUZ_bI4uyhAePzYCoAw&usg=AFQjCNH7alKOE-HgRJTbH5TJTW-Jl8U0Qg

starviewadams

They still want boom time level pay and conditions even though it's not the boom anymore.Everyone has taken cuts,get on with or quit.

Thousands of others would happily take their ''undesirable'' and ''dangerous'' jobs in a heartbeat if they did.

dj jarvis

from the garda act 2005

16.— (1) On being appointed, each member of the Garda Síochána shall make before a Peace Commissioner a declaration in the following form:

“I hereby solemnly and sincerely declare before God that—

• I will faithfully discharge the duties of a member of the Garda Síochána with fairness, integrity, regard for human rights, diligence and impartiality, upholding the Constitution and the laws and according equal respect to all people,

• while I continue to be a member, I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all my duties according to law, and

• I do not belong to, and will not while I remain a member form, belong to or subscribe to, any political party or secret society whatsoever.”.

(2) The words “before God” may be omitted from the declaration at the request of the declarant.

the highlighted part is the important one , taking this oath makes it clear to any serving member that they can not be part of a union or strike as per the constitution
they had their chance to sit in on talks , they walked
Now they have to deal with the outcome from poor representation

Boombastic

HondaSami wrote: »

Just to clarify their position in the talks

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=garda%20not%20in%20pay%20talks%20croke%20park&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CE8QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.donegaldaily.com%2F2013%2F03%2F01%2Fwe-were-excluded-from-croke-park-ii-talks-says-garda-union-boss%2F&ei=HxZTUZ_bI4uyhAePzYCoAw&usg=AFQjCNH7alKOE-HgRJTbH5TJTW-Jl8U0Qg

That's the GRA, the Agsi were involved in the talks or is this statement from their website false? How could they not return to talks they were never in in the first place? Please explain

Boombastic wrote: »

AGSI HAS NOT RETURNED TO PAY TALKS

It has come to notice that AGSI is rumoured to have returned to pay talks on Croke Park. This is entirely false. AGSI has not returned to Croke Park / Extension talks or briefings or negotiations.

dj jarvis

VinLieger wrote: »

Yes but am i wrong in that but the reason they werent allowed in is only because theres a law against them striking or taking similar action? And the government thought they could control them?

No , they could attend , but not make any suggestions or motions
it was the same during benchmarking , but funny enough, not a peep from them becasue the wages were going up and up and up,

now that it does not suit them, they talk of strike and rebellion,
they will be put down and put down hard - and sorry to say but for a very good reason.

dj jarvis

and the clincher - from the garda act 2005

18.— (1) For the purpose of representing members of the Garda Síochána in all matters affecting their welfare and efficiency (including pay, pensions and conditions of service), there may be established, in accordance with the regulations, one or more than one association for all or any one or more of the ranks of the Garda Síochána below the rank of Assistant Garda Commissioner.

(2) An association established under subsection (1) must be independent of and not associated with any body or person outside the Garda Síochána, but it may employ persons who are not members of the Garda Síochána.

(3) A member of the Garda Síochána shall not be or become a member of any trade union or association (other than an association established under this section or section 13 of the Garda Síochána Act 1924 ) any object of which is to control or influence the pay, pensions or conditions of service of the Garda Síochána.

(4) If any question arises whether any body or association is a trade union or association referred to in subsection (3), the question shall be determined by the Minister whose determination shall be final.

(5) The Minister—

(a) may, notwithstanding subsection (2), authorise an association established under this section to be associated with a person or body outside the Garda Síochána in such cases and in such manner and subject to such conditions or restrictions as he or she may specify, and

(b) may vary or withdraw any such authorisation.

(6) An association established under this section for the purpose of representing members of the Garda Síochána holding the rank of Garda may include persons admitted, in accordance with the regulations, to training for membership in the Garda Síochána.

i rest my case - they know the score when signing up

taytothief

Well they won't be getting any support from me. They've been doing some awesome work at decreasing the goodwill of the public over the years.

dj jarvis

taytothief wrote: »

Well they won't be getting any support from me. They've been doing some awesome work at decreasing the goodwill of the public over the years.

nothing to do with your user name ?

taytothief

dj jarvis wrote: »

nothing to do with your user name ?

They just won't let anyone have any fun! :mad:

Paulzx

dj jarvis wrote: »

No , they could attend , but not make any suggestions or motions
it was the same during benchmarking , but funny enough, not a peep from them becasue the wages were going up and up and up,

now that it does not suit them, they talk of strike and rebellion,
they will be put down and put down hard - and sorry to say but for a very good reason.

You continuously mention the word "strike" in your posts. I have yet to see or hear any mention of strike action from either the AGSI or the GRA.

Stop creating a situation that has not and will not occur. The AGSI have even gone as far as to say that a "blue flue" is out of the question and that was only this morning on Radio 1. Even a blue flue is far removed from a strike.

At least be accurate

Paulzx

taytothief wrote: »

Well they won't be getting any support from me.

The GRA have just announced live on Radio that they are calling the whole protest off because of that................Taytothief for Justice Minister

kala85

dj jarvis wrote: »

and the clincher - from the garda act 2005

18.— (1) For the purpose of representing members of the Garda Síochána in all matters affecting their welfare and efficiency (including pay, pensions and conditions of service), there may be established, in accordance with the regulations, one or more than one association for all or any one or more of the ranks of the Garda Síochána below the rank of Assistant Garda Commissioner.

(2) An association established under subsection (1) must be independent of and not associated with any body or person outside the Garda Síochána, but it may employ persons who are not members of the Garda Síochána.

(3) A member of the Garda Síochána shall not be or become a member of any trade union or association (other than an association established under this section or section 13 of the Garda Síochána Act 1924 ) any object of which is to control or influence the pay, pensions or conditions of service of the Garda Síochána.

(4) If any question arises whether any body or association is a trade union or association referred to in subsection (3), the question shall be determined by the Minister whose determination shall be final.

(5) The Minister—

(a) may, notwithstanding subsection (2), authorise an association established under this section to be associated with a person or body outside the Garda Síochána in such cases and in such manner and subject to such conditions or restrictions as he or she may specify, and

(b) may vary or withdraw any such authorisation.

(6) An association established under this section for the purpose of representing members of the Garda Síochána holding the rank of Garda may include persons admitted, in accordance with the regulations, to training for membership in the Garda Síochána.

i rest my case - they know the score when signing up

This was brought in in 2005. way before most of the present gardai signed up.

Public sector is getting creamed. They already took a huge cut in their salaries and conceeded to having a fairly big change in their roster. All out revolution is what is needed. I hope that the next time an angry mob stands outside the dail, the gardai just let them through..

Look at the youtube clip of Temple bar. How many people would stand their alone facing a crowd of hooligans?? Pay the guards and the public sector the proper pay that they deserve!! Working 10hour unsocial hours shifts. Nobody wanted to do the work of a guard during the good times because of the small pay.
Politicians are getting 12k tax free to go to work, 80k+ of a salary and a big pension as well. Why doesnt shatter take a pay cut ??? A joke of a minister and a joke of commissioner. He should resign. If he had any sort of backbone, he would resign as commissioner and stand by his men. Stations closing down , cars not replaced, ombudsman on their back if they make any sort of mistake. Its a tough job and they should be paid properly for it.

taytothief

Paulzx wrote: »

The GRA have just announced live on Radio that they are calling the whole protest off because of that................Taytothief for Justice Minister

Sounds good to me.

SB2013

dj jarvis wrote: »

from the garda act 2005

16.— (1) On being appointed, each member of the Garda Síochána shall make before a Peace Commissioner a declaration in the following form:

“I hereby solemnly and sincerely declare before God that—

• I will faithfully discharge the duties of a member of the Garda Síochána with fairness, integrity, regard for human rights, diligence and impartiality, upholding the Constitution and the laws and according equal respect to all people,

• while I continue to be a member, I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all my duties according to law, and

• I do not belong to, and will not while I remain a member form, belong to or subscribe to, any political party or secret society whatsoever.”.

(2) The words “before God” may be omitted from the declaration at the request of the declarant.

the highlighted part is the important one , taking this oath makes it clear to any serving member that they can not be part of a union or strike as per the constitution
they had their chance to sit in on talks , they walked
Now they have to deal with the outcome from poor representation

i notice it doesn't mention discipline or loyalty as you previously stated. It's an oath to enforce the law, not to obey orders.

dj jarvis

kala85 wrote: »

This was brought in in 2005. way before most of the present gardai signed up.

Public sector is getting creamed. They already took a huge cut in their salaries and conceeded to having a fairly big change in their roster. All out revolution is what is needed. I hope that the next time an angry mob stands outside the dail, the gardai just let them through..

Look at the youtube clip of Temple bar. How many people would stand their alone facing a crowd of hooligans?? Pay the guards and the public sector the proper pay that they deserve!! Working 10hour unsocial hours shifts. Nobody wanted to do the work of a guard during the good times because of the small pay.
Politicians are getting 12k tax free to go to work, 80k+ of a salary and a big pension as well. Why doesnt shatter take a pay cut ??? A joke of a minister and a joke of commissioner. He should resign. If he had any sort of backbone, he would resign as commissioner and stand by his men. Stations closing down , cars not replaced, ombudsman on their back if they make any sort of mistake. Its a tough job and they should be paid properly for it.

its virtually the same act as before , and the provision of not striking or union membership has been in it from the foundation of the state , and for good reason

but again i state , i agree they are being hard done by , but all i am pointing out is that they can not walk out, blue flu or strike, its illegal , unconstitutional and they aof all the people in the state have to uphold this and all laws , they can not pick and choose

HondaSami

Boombastic wrote: »

That's the GRA, the Agsi were involved in the talks or is this statement from their website false? How could they not return to talks they were never in in the first place? Please explain

No explanation needed.

Boombastic

kala85 wrote: »

...............Nobody wanted to do the work of a guard during the good times because of the small pay....................

So there were no new recruits between '95 and '03? Templemore was shut down due to lack of interested people applying was it?

As for the rest, get off the cross, Jesus needs it back for easter