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Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Larbre34

An Coimisinéir Teanga is at it again, forcing an Irish language awareness programme on the Gardaí, a force so stretched and weary they have barely the time and resources to fulfil their role in English, never mind find the time to learn operational Irish.

All told, An Coimisinéir forces a huge amount of wasted expenditure on state bodies, in terms of signage, reports and publications, made available for a population where 95% of the functional language is English.

So, in this time of belt-tightening, is An Coimisinéir a luxury we can afford? Would the money be better spent encouraging the use and love of the first official language willingly and voluntarily, rather than forcibly?

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Coles

marienbad wrote: »

So what is your explanation then ?

Is an explanation needed? I genuinely just love the language. I'm well aware of the problems surrounding the teaching of Irish but I think that the biggest hurdle is put in place by people having a bad attitude towards it. Change the attitude and the language becomes a joy to learn.

Coles

opti0nal wrote: »

Explain what you mean.

So far you guys have blamed the Irish language, the curriculum, the schools, the teachers, 'native' Irish speakers, 'Dublin' Irish speakers, Irish language enthusiasts, Irish culture, the GAA, even Irish traditional music and dancing!

Isn't it time to have a closer look at yourselves? Look at your attitude towards it, perhaps?

marienbad

Coles wrote: »

Is an explanation needed? I genuinely just love the language. I'm well aware of the problems surrounding the teaching of Irish but I think that the biggest hurdle is put in place by people having a bad attitude towards it. Change the attitude and the language becomes a joy to learn.

How is that bad attitude created ? Where does it come from ?

opti0nal

Coles wrote: »

Is an explanation needed? I genuinely just love the language. I'm well aware of the problems surrounding the teaching of Irish but I think that the biggest hurdle is put in place by people having a bad attitude towards it. Change the attitude and the language becomes a joy to learn.

If someone decides not to learn or speak Irish, are you attributing some kind of blame or fault to thim?

Coles

marienbad wrote: »

How is that bad attitude created ? Where does it come from ?

That's a very interesting question, and I think the answer is complex. Hopefully I'll get a chance later to put down my thoughts on it but I would appreciate hearing other views on it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

marienbad wrote: »

So what is your explanation then ?

opti0nal wrote: »

Explain what you mean.

Sweet Jesus Christ, don't ask him that.

Coles wrote: »

Is an explanation needed? I genuinely just love the language. I'm well aware of the problems surrounding the teaching of Irish but I think that the biggest hurdle is put in place by people having a bad attitude towards it. Change the attitude and the language becomes a joy to learn.

Too late.

Coles wrote: »

That's a very interesting question, and I think the answer is complex. Hopefully I'll get a chance later to put down my thoughts on it but I would appreciate hearing other views on it.

You can start by explaingin why "not bothered" and "not intelligent" are exactly the same thing to you, and how anyone could be held to blame for an inevitable outcome to a linguisitc experiemnt.

Lord TSC

Coles wrote: »

That's a very interesting question, and I think the answer is complex. Hopefully I'll get a chance later to put down my thoughts on it but I would appreciate hearing other views on it.

No you wouldn't. You're making that quite clear.
Everytime we put forward a problem we have, you shift the discussion to our "bad attitutdes" and how we're "blaming" everyone but ourselves.

The truth, of course, is we're actually offering our thoughts on the problems with the language in the country and why we have a problem. Rather than do the logical thing and build or fix these problems, you (and others on your side of the debate) completely ignore our points and resort to name calling and sticking your fingers in your ears...

marienbad

Coles wrote: »

That's a very interesting question, and I think the answer is complex. Hopefully I'll get a chance later to put down my thoughts on it but I would appreciate hearing other views on it.

Might I suggest pondering a variation on the cliche -''tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime '' might help you, that is if you equate attitude and crime.

You have shown you are tough on attitude , now how about your ideas/solutions on the causes of attitude ?

Or are you just another holier than thou blowhard ?

Canard

I don't see how it's blaming others when the system is objectively bad. I was actually shot down by one of the Irish supporters on a previous thread - I got a HA1 in Irish in my leaving cert, yet apparently that means I'm "nowhere near fluent". Surely a good grade after 14 years not meaning fluency is a problem, and therefore people have a right to dismiss such an apparently pointless endeavor.

I never loved the language or the subject, but by the same token I never despised it either. I'm just saying that 99% of the time it's taught horribly and there are simply no resources on the Internet or even bilingual books to help people to fix it, even if they want to. Surely anyone doing honours Irish in school has a good attitude towards it, yet they're still coming out not totally fluent. So whose fault is that?

Grayson wrote: »

I've always said, if I paid a private teacher to give that many lessons with that little payoff, I'd think I was being ripped off. And the thing is, I am. It's my taxes that are being used to badly implement someone's cultural policies.

It's bad enough that it's being done, it's criminal that it's being done so badly. I can say with a lot of certainty that no-one I went to school with is fluent. And I know it was a good school. I had to sit an entrance exam for my secondary school. Everyone of us (seven) managed to score in the top 20 in the exam. I managed to get in the top 10 of my irish exam. Which shocked me because I'd spent time abroad and was definitely the worst in the class in irish.
BTW, there were 20 kids in my year in primary school. It was a little country school. So when i say 7 sat the exam, there were only 12 boys in the class. So it's not like it was the top 7 from 100.

Anyways, my point is, that were did fantastically at everything. But not one of us was able to converse in irish. And when we did the leaving, I was the only one that did pass. All the others did what everyone does, memorised off answers for the oral. They still couldn't speak it.

I completely agree. My school streamed us in 2nd and 3rd year and our Irish class was the top one, yet our teacher had us rote-learning things about poems we'd never even seen. You'd never believe it if you didn't experience it, it's that bad. Half of my friends who got the same JC grades as me dropped down in 5th year because she made them hate the language so much. Personally I didn't drop, but I sort of wanted to out of principle because it was so backwards compared to how I was learning French, for example.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I guess maybe I take my primary school for granted sometimes then. We had books and books of vocab and grammar. In fairness to my school, we did quite a bit of that sort of stuff.

We learned a few words every now and then, and we once had a 3 day build up learning a word a day until we knew how to say "slua mór daoine". So yeah, I guess your school was just good.

kowloon

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

What can I say? I'm a writer and I absorb a whole lot of media of various forms; I read books, I listen to music, I view art, I watch movies and I watch television shows. Culture is, by definition, the way in which we express ourselves creatively and how we represent those creative inputs and outputs visually and symbolically. Much as how all cultures over time have been defined by artistic creations, ours is shaped and molded in a large part by television.

There are quite a few people on this island who view culture as something that was written in stone before any of us were born. I think that view of culture is one that surfaces time and time again in these threads.

Is mise Bart Simpson...

Dionysius2

marienbad wrote: »

How is that bad attitude created ? Where does it come from ?

Both of these questions are key in this multi multi faceted problem.
There is a lot, an awful lot, of deeply ingrained feelings about who we are, who we were and who we might become when it comes to defining our Irishness. We can be submerged with a tsunami of 'whataboutery' in practically any discussion we care to engage in about our Irishness. And that, imo, feeds into our attitude to the Irish language.

It is pure guesswork trying to assess the scale of support for any particular view. But some things may give us pointers.

Just look at the treatment of Irish in the popular sports media in this way.
On any given Monday, count the total number of soccer pages in the three most popular tabloids and you will find that it amounts to about 30 pages as against a total of 9 or 10 for the GAA (both codes) and 5 or 6 for rugby.
Do the same for the Sports Supplements on the run-up to each weekend sport and the ratio is about the same, i.e., for every page of GAA there's at least three pages of soccer coverage.....10 pages GAA as against 40 soccer pages on the really screwy days. Now back to the Irish language. Where in all that coverage is the Irish language. Damned hard to find if not non-existent, dare I say ?

Savouring that information surely helps to explain why we say and do the things we say and do as we struggle to explain our Irishness. I'm not sure how it should be regarded but it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the Irish language restoration is largely elitist yet one rarely hears it discussed in that way.

Without doubt, different explanations will be offered for the situation outlined and the 'bias' in favour of soccer or should that be 'prejudice' ?
I'm just putting it out there to hear the views people have and on a personal note, would not 'die in the ditch' for any particular interpretation regardless. My own Irish language skills are weak and undergoing remedial work of late but alas too late probably. From all I have seen at home and abroad though, I have come to a strong view that an additional language skill should not be a burden yet that seems to be the point at which we have arrived. Very large portions of our people speak scornfully about their views on Irish and it seems to me that the scars of our history is where we must look for the explanation of that.

SWL

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's not that I'm happy I don't speak it. I don't hate it either. The reality is I like most others are completely indifferent to it for the most part. I see little use for it other than to connect myself to my heritage, something I don't see a point of either. Likewise, I'm not dismissive of attempts to restore it; I just don't want to be part of it, don't want to be forced to learn it, and don't want to be insulted because I have made that choice over whats relevant in my life.

I'd be inclined to agree with you here. I don't blame the education system because ultimately even if the course changes, there's still going to be a majority who are apathetic to the language and that's the real problem. If people genuinely want to learn the language, they will. No excuses.

What can I say? I'm a writer and I absorb a whole lot of media of various forms; I read books, I listen to music, I view art, I watch movies and I watch television shows. Culture is, by definition, the way in which we express ourselves creatively and how we represent those creative inputs and outputs visually and symbolically. Much as how all cultures over time have been defined by artistic creations, ours is shaped and molded in a large part by television.

To be blunt, it's very elitist and insulting to get personal and say it's an indictment that I let what media I consume shape my view of culture. That's a huge part of how culture is formed, be it through watching the news and seeing world events, or sitting down and choosing to watch a DVD of a TV show, be it a popcorn action romp, a high-society documentary, a reality show (many of which have huge influences on our societies culture whether we like it or not) or whatever. Feel free to intellectually look down your nose at that, but that's reality of how society is forming it's culture in the modern age.

I do all o fthe things listed both in Sweden and Ireland, yet I can still speak my native language and the native language in Ireland, Swedish TV shows a lot of US TV yet all Swedes still maintain a strong interest and appreciation of their culture,they don’t want to abandon Swedish or Finnish for economic reasons, nor do Swedes suggest that as no other Country speaks Swedish the country should abandon the native tongue.

There are plenty of places in Dublin where Irish can be spoken, you have had 14 years educationin the language yet you can’t speak it and American comedian can do it in 9 months to Leaving Certificate standard and your rationale is I don’t need it so I didn’t bother to learn it, going by the number of foreign tourist in Ireland over the weekend do you think they came here to sample your view of Irish culture?

If you want to chase a modern monoculture that apes what happens in the west knock you out,but I don’t believe that any of my Irish friends would agree especially the ones who have travelled internationally, they want to appreciate what makesIrish people different from other nationalities and that includes the Irish language.

Finally when I started learning the language I got wonderful encouragement from Irish speakers so I don’t believe that Irish speaker are fundamentalist head bangers

Lord TSC

SWL wrote: »

If you want to chase a modern monoculture that apes what happens in the west knock you out,but I don’t believe that any of my Irish friends would agree especially the ones who have travelled internationally, they want to appreciate what makesIrish people different from other nationalities and that includes the Irish language.

But everyone is entitled to chase what culture they want. Luckily we live in a mostly free society. There are many aspects of Irish culture I want no part of...the language, the drinking, the GAA...and that's my choice. This attitude that I'm somehow inferior though because I choose to follow a culture which is relevant to myself is frustrating though.

You're allowed follow whatever form of culture you want. And so are your friends. And so am I. I'm not looking to impress your Irish friends and I certainly don't care if they agree with my interpretation of culture.

Finally when I started learning the language I got wonderful encouragement from Irish speakers so I don’t believe that Irish speaker are fundamentalist head bangers

No, not all are. But there's a few on here who are, who refuse to even acknowledge there's other sides to the arguement and who are intent on forcing it on everyone, removing personal choice and forcing their views on others.

opti0nal

SWL wrote: »

I don’t believe that Irish speaker are fundamentalist head bangers

Ask them about making Irish an optional subject in schools.

SWL

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

But everyone is entitled to chase what culture they want. Luckily we live in a mostly free society. There are many aspects of Irish culture I want no part of...the language, the drinking, the GAA...and that's my choice. This attitude that I'm somehow inferior though because I choose to follow a culture which is relevant to myself is frustrating though.

You're allowed follow whatever form of culture you want. And so are your friends. And so am I. I'm not looking to impress your Irish friends and I certainly don't care if they agree with my interpretation of culture.

No, not all are. But there's a few on here who are, who refuse to even acknowledge there's other sides to the arguement and who are intent on forcing it on everyone, removing personal choice and forcing their views on others.

So what is your culture?

c_man

SWL wrote: »

so I don’t believe that Irish speaker are fundamentalist head bangers

I saw something interesting at the weekend. I knew that the monolingual brigade had painted out most of the English signs for Claregalway (as someone who is quite familiar with the area, let me know if any of ye have ever heard any Irish spoken in that 'Gaeltacht') but it's hilarious that further out towards Lackagh not only have they defaced the 'Claregalway' but also the distance to the village.

Of course roving the streets at night painting out the names of places is something most sane people do alright...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

SWL wrote: »

Finally when I started learning the language I got wonderful encouragement from Irish speakers so I don’t believe that Irish speaker are fundamentalist head bangers

I'm guessing that you ran into a buch of genuinely laid-back and interesting people that were excited and interested in the fact that you had chosen to learn the langauge of you own free will.

Now if only the people in power were of the same mentality and treated primary school kids with the same resepct.

The "cultural" debate, I'm going to inflame: for me, culture is nothing more than a mode of programming. Telling me what I should do, how I should feel, and what I should like and be proud of. **** that. I am a free individual who is is able to and is given the right to choose and build a culturla lifestyle of my own.

SWL

opti0nal wrote: »

Ask them about making Irish an optional subject in schools.

In my experience they are happy to see it as an optional subject, they believe it will increase the numbers.

Irish people can emigrate to any EU country but the major barrier, they can't speak French, German etc. That is why they go to the other side of the world to AUS, NZ CAN.

Is that the educational systems fault or is it the culture you are following?

c_man

SWL wrote: »

In my experience they are happy to see it as an optional subject, they believe it will increase the numbers.

Lol, you missed out on all the protests around this with loads of protesters with a union jack around their mouths the last time this was mooted.

The clear implication being if you're not fluent with Irish, you're some horrible West Brit. Lovely people I'm sure.

SWL

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I'm guessing that you ran into a buch of genuinely laid-back and interesting people that were excited and interested in the fact that you had chosen to learn the langauge of you own free will.

Now if only the people in power were of the same mentality and treated primary school kids with the same resepct.

The "cultural" debate, I'm going to inflame: for me, culture is nothing more than a mode of programming. Telling me what I should do, how I should feel, and what I should like and be proud of. **** that. I am a free individual who is is able to and is given the right to choose and build a culturla lifestyle of my own.

What is your culture?

marienbad

SWL wrote: »

What is your culture?

At its most basic level lets take the wiki definition- ''The outlook,attitudes, values, goals, and practices shared by a society''

Would you agree with that as a starting point ?

Lord TSC

SWL wrote: »

So what is your culture?

A very nerdy, technological one.

My bedroom is littered with relics of science fiction and american culture, via the form of movies, tv shows, books, comic books, games. My culture is one shaped by authors such as Stephen King and Robert Kirkman, of writers and filmmakers like Joss Whedon, Steven Spielberg and George Lucas, of video games made across the world. It's also one shaped by the international texts I read and studied as part of my university days; Shakespeare being very prominent, as well as the several texts I studied as part of my English MA (funnily enough, an MA which specialized in Empire and Post-Colonial Culture). A culture of being a mad Manchester United fan and a fan of American Pro-Wrestling. A guy who likes cats over dogs. A guy who, to make an admission, quite likes X Factor and cheap manufactured pop. All of these creative contributions by others are simply part of the world which shapes my culture and my personal identity.

I realise that may not be a hugely individual or unique one, but it's mine. I'm not going to force it on anyone. It's an English speaking culture, shaped and founded on other English based texts. One with very little basis on the accidental factor that was my country of origin. And it's mine.

I'm sorry if this is not your ideal of a culture or if you look down your nose at said choices which shape my life. I don't look down my nose at anyone who sees the Irish language as part of their cultural identity. I simply ask that I be allowed shape my own culture and you (and anyone else who wants to speak Irish) shape yours, without either of us forcing our cultural beliefs onto the other.

SWL wrote: »

In my experience they are happy to see it as an optional subject, they believe it will increase the numbers.

See, this is where I start to actually feel a bit sorry for you. You're jumping into this debate without actually knowing the people who are arguing the "same" side as you are. For the last two years, there's typically this same topic every second month. Every time the idea of optional Irish is brought up, it's quickly and staunchly shot down, with an absolute refusal to even discuss it.

Wibbs

Coles wrote: »

the GAA, even Irish traditional music and dancing!

Eh no. Talk about being blinkered and subjective. When those two subjects came up they were as examples of successful parts of our culture, not "excuses".

SWL wrote:

I do all o fthe things listed both in Sweden and Ireland, yet I can still speak my native language and the native language in Ireland,

Well I can't vouch for your Swedish, but your English is impeccable. See what I did there...

Swedish TV shows a lot of US TV yet all Swedes still maintain a strong interest and appreciation of their culture,they don’t want to abandon Swedish or Finnish for economic reasons, nor do Swedes suggest that as no other Country speaks Swedish the country should abandon the native tongue.

Swedish has maintained an unbroken line among the people, from the lowest brow to the highest. There was never the disconnect that happened in Ireland. That makes a big difference S.

There are plenty of places in Dublin where Irish can be spoken, you have had 14 years educationin the language yet you can’t speak it and American comedian can do it in 9 months to Leaving Certificate standard

Higher than most LC standards I'd say. And why? He wanted to. That's the biggie. He wanted to. It spoke to him and what he defined as his Irish culture. The plain fact is and history and common experience backs this up, for the majority of Irish people it doesn't speak to them beyond a public aspiration in the census and such like. The reality on the ground is quite different. They pay it lip service, but they pay that lip service in English not as Gaelige.

Finally when I started learning the language I got wonderful encouragement from Irish speakers so I don’t believe that Irish speaker are fundamentalist head bangers

Sure and I have known a few Irish speakers that wouldn't be "fundamentalist head bangers"(like the turn of phrase BTW A. Kudos

). On Boards there are a couple. The user Dlofnep a perfect example of that. A guy with a great love for the language, a language he made pains to learn as an adult and encourages that in others and Ive yet to see him once plumb the depths of west brits/innit/attitude/thick/ignorant/etc. Sadly he's all too often in the minority.

Put it another way A, no one appears to be a fundamentalist if you happen to agree with them.

Wibbs

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

A guy who likes cats over dogs.

You lost me right there TSC. Bloody weirdo.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

SWL wrote: »

What is your culture?

West Brit bleeding heart liberal

It depends on what you mean by culture though. For me, it's a carefree bohemian and artistic existance based on core aspects of nudity, expression and practicaliy.

If I'f grown up in Scandanavia 20 years ago, I'd have been in heaven.

feargale

SWL wrote: »

As a Swedish man I can communicate everyday activities in Irish, I couldn’t hold a conversation in technical activities but I have a good basic knowledge of Irish.
I am astonished that so many Irish people are happy they don’t speak their native language and are dismissive of any attempts to restore it.
As fo rpeople who accuse the educational system of failing them, I would point to myself, self taught the basics and then went to classes, Des Bishop who learned the language in 9 months through immersion.
The idea that you regard your culture based on what is on TV is an indictment on yourself.

You are the very man we need here. Would you tell us please : What happens in Northern Sweden when a Sami person is pulled by a policeman for speeding, and insists on speaking Sami to the cop? Does every Swedish policeman speak Sami, in Northern Sweden at least?

kowloon

SWL wrote: »

What is your culture?

I had something to add about pigeonholing exercises but I wonder if it might be interesting to open a new thread entitled 'What is Irish culture?'.

Has there been such a thread?

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

A guy who likes cats over dogs.

I second Wibbs, a true and patriotic Irishman has a green wolfhound.

Aineoil

Irish is my first language, but I would never impose it on anyone. Let's face it - a language is a tool for communication - if I communicate to a person better in English why would I use Irish?

9959

c_man wrote: »

I saw something interesting at the weekend. I knew that the monolingual brigade had painted out most of the English signs for Claregalway (as someone who is quite familiar with the area, let me know if any of ye have ever heard any Irish spoken in that 'Gaeltacht') but it's hilarious that further out towards Lackagh not only have they defaced the 'Claregalway' but also the distance to the village.

Of course roving the streets at night painting out the names of places is something most sane people do alright...

Perhaps if the Irish language zealots camouflaged Claregalway by covering the place under an extra large sheet of khaki tarpaulin, they could render it free from the prying eyes of uncultured tourists and profligate day trippers, but more importantly the good people of Claregalway would never again have to pretend to cup their ears (in the presence of the Gaelgoiri Taliban) in order to prevent the disgusting sound of the English language from polluting their souls and undermining their Celtic purity, except of course when they're conversing freely amongst themselves 'as bearla' as the language hawks grimly move on to inspect and 'make invisible' another town nearby.

Come to think of it, would not an extra, extra, extra large sheet of tarpaulin cover the whole country, hiding and protecting it from the pernicious influence of the outside world and its non-Irish ways, or did we try that some time ago with, eh, 'mixed results'.

Iwasfrozen

Aineoil wrote: »

Irish is my first language, but I would never impose it on anyone. Let's face it - a language is a tool for communication - if I communicate to a person better in English why would I use Irish?

This is exactly the kind of attitude we need. We need to respect Irish as a minority language but stop the crazy revival attempts. Scrapping the language commissioner is a good first step. Scrapping the OLA and even better second step.