Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

laoch na mona wrote: »

we have this beautiful an unique language .....everything should be done to revive it

Do you draw the line at coercion, or is anything allowed?

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

You guys are really clutching at straws, now. Let's sum up:

"You all hate the langauge!"
"You're all thick because you never tried to learn the langauge!"
"People are getting arrested for speaking the language!"*
"I'm being denied my basic human rights because YOU won't learn Irish so you can speak to ME in the language I CHOOSE!"*
"It's the FIRST OFFICAL STATE OF THE LANAGUGE, so..... so... so there!"

Three of which are balant lies, the fourth is hypocritical and the fifth is merely a fact of convenience and doesn't really mean much.

It's like Irish Language Bingo!

I just need "West Brit" and I've got a full line!

kowloon

Coles wrote: »

I'm not sure how you continue to miss the point that the Irish language is THE FIRST OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF THE STATE. Think about that for a moment. As agents of the State the Gardai are required to be able to conduct their business through Irish.

Good point, we really need to correct this and accept that the language of the majority is the first language and that Irish should be a protected minority language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

"You all hate the langauge!"
"You're all thick because you never tried to learn the langauge!"

What's this 'All' stuff? The people who hate the language are a small minority, but you're vocal. You say it a lot.

And it's not that you never tried to learn the Irish language, is it? You tried for 14 years, right? For 14 years!! And you can't speak a word of it! I've suggested that you have a bad attitude towards the language. That was generous of me but I'm well aware that there is also a real possibility that something else is going on. It was wrong for me to infer that you might have an intellectual disability. I'm sorry.

Coles wrote: »

What's this 'All' stuff? The people who hate the language are a small minority, but you're vocal. You say it a lot.

This acually makes my point for me excellently, thank you very much. I say something negative about some of the posts in this thread.
Therefore, I have made a negative inflection about the langauge itself.
Therefore I do it a lot,
Therefore I hate the langauge.

Highlights perfectly your idea that anyone who says anything negative automatically hates the lanaguge.

And it's not that you never tried to learn the Irish language, is it? You tried for 14 years, right? For 14 years!! And you can't speak a word of it! I've suggested that you have a bad attitude towards the language. That was generous of me but I'm well aware that there is also a real possibility that something else is going on. It was wrong for me to infer that you might have an intellectual disability. I'm sorry.

As a matter of fact no, I didn't spent 14 years trying to learn the lanaguge.
Nor do I have a bad attitude to it.
There is actually a real possibility - actually it's factual - that something else is goign on.
You apology about the mental disability misreference is accepted.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The man wasn't arrested for speaking Irish. He was arrested because he refused to speak English.

Are you just trying to be obtuse? What exactly is the point you are trying to make?
Choosing to speak Irish instead of English is not a crime, it is not an arrestable offence. That someone was arrested for choosing to speak Irish instead of English is an utter disgrace in my opinion.

http://www.gaelport.com/default.aspx?treeid=37&NewsItemID=9465

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Come to think of it, we only have your word that an arrest was even made.

Details of a man who was arrested for attempting to speak to Gardaí through Irish were published today in the Annual Report of An Coimisinéir Teanga.

The case concerned a young man who was stopped by Gardaí in relation to a road traffic matter, who was arrested, handcuffed and brought to a Garda Station until a Garda could be found who could deal with him through Irish. The man was not involved in an accident, nor were there any allegations made concerning speeding or driving under the influence of alcohol.

During the investigation undertaken by An Coimisinéir Teanga it came to light that there was an attitude among the members of An Garda Síochána involved in the case that Irish speakers should be dealt with in the same manner as foreign nationals despite the constitutional status of the Irish language.

An Coimisinéir Teanga found that An Garda Síochána had failed in this instance to comply with a statutory commitment which recognises the right of the public to conduct business with the force in either official language, English or Irish.

Having received the findings of the investigation the Garda Commissioner and senior management have informed An Coimisinéir Teanga explaining systematic changes which have been introduced to avoid repetition of a similar event.

Speaking at the launch of his 2012 Annual Report, An Coimisinéir Teanga, Seán Ó Cuirreáin said developments have been made within An Garda Síochána in this area which involve “promoting language awareness and training as well as the development of new practices and protocol”.

Sorry Ikky Poo, I'm not making this up.

<Snip> Answer came while I was posting.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

<Snip> Answer came while I was posting.

Do you think the Gardaí normally go around handcuffing people who are not under arrest?

An Coilean wrote: »

Do you think the Gardaí normally go around handcuffing people who are not under arrest?

Just asking for confirmation. Which you provided. Which is why I snipped the post...

An Coilean wrote:

That someone was arrested for choosing to speak Irish instead of English is an utter disgrace in my opinion.

True, all the driver had to do was to put aside his agenda and use our common language. There are better ways to promote the language than by wasting Garda time.

opti0nal wrote: »

True, all the driver had to do was to put aside his agenda and use our common language.

Eh? He was using our common language! He spoke Irish to a Garda. In Ireland. The word 'Garda' is actually an Irish word. Did you know that? It means 'Guardian' or 'Guard'.

opti0nal wrote: »

True, all the driver had to do was to put aside his agenda and use our common language. There are better ways to promote the language than by wasting Garda time.

Did you stop to consider that maybe he was not looking for a good way to promote the language, but rather just choosing to use it as part of his own life.
I'm not sure what agenda you are referring to, if its preferring to use the Irish language, why should he or anyone else have to 'put it aside'? This is Ireland, we have a right to speak Irish.

An Coilean wrote: »

Did you stop to consider that maybe he was not looking for a good way to promote the language, but rather just choosing to use it as part of his own life.
I'm not sure what agenda you are referring to, if its preferring to use the Irish language, why should he or anyone else have to 'put it aside'? This is Ireland, we have a right to speak Irish.

To integrate in society and get along with other people, one needs to adapt, accept reality and make compromises. Making coercive laws and forcing children to speak Irish might make you feel powerful, but it's wrong.

Coles wrote: »

Eh? He was using our common language.

Reality check: Irish is not our common language.

An Coilean wrote: »

Did you stop to consider that maybe he was not looking for a good way to promote the language, but rather just choosing to use it as part of his own life.

No offence but this is nonsense. He likely was speaking Irish to try and get out of the ticket and to be awkward with the Guards. Once it became apparent they couldn't speak it, he could have dropped it and spoke English in order to carry on his way and not waste his and their time.

But it's typical; rather than do what was easy and most effective, he decided to carry on this charade at best to prove a point, at worst to rip the **** out of the Gardai. If the latter and he was mocking them, then he can't complain when the cops get snarky back.

opti0nal wrote: »

Reality check: Irish is not our common language.

Apologies! I assumed you had been educated in Ireland and had spent 14 years learning the language.

So Wibbs. What's your excuse?

Wibbs

Coles wrote: »

I'm not sure how you continue to miss the point that the Irish language is THE FIRST OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF THE STATE.

In name only. That's the part you completely refuse to acknowledge. It is not our common language either or we wouldn't be having this conversation as Bearla, nor would the vast majority of the conversations of this website, or pub or street corner or lab or workplace or university.

How was the person 'being a bit of a dick'? Do you have a list of other Constitutional Rights that can be trampled over by dumb asses?:rolleyes:

Numero uno if you had calmed down from your hardline position you might, just might have spotted I was defending the guy in one way and lambasting the cop in another(though I could see the latter's frustration). He was being a dick because he was "making a point!!", unless he was a 99 year old Blasket islander with no English to speak of.

Many moons ago I actually took a business phonecall from a guy who kicked off in Irish. I politely and apologetically explained I didn't understand nearly enough(and that's putting it mildly) to conduct our business through Irish. The guy ignored this and kept on in Irish. My politeness lasted a good couple of minutes with me again explaining and apologising for my lack of Irish, just as I would if the person had kicked off in any other language. This started to wane as I knew damn well he had full fluency in English and was just being a monumental dickhead trying to make his point. Given I'm not some gov agency that requires any Irish speakers on staff, I had enough and told him in plain language which he clearly understood why I thought he was being an utter tool. This did not go down well and like a pretentious drunk whose accent goes down a notch he flipped into English. Quite aggressively too. Turned out I was wrong in one way, his command of English was pretty lacking, which of course I had to point out. He also wittered on about his "rights". I gather he rang other people in my industry with the same tack. The real joke was one of my competitors PA's originally hails from Mayo and is a fluent Irish speaker and apparently this gobshíte's Irish was of the "book Irish" kind, so she laughed him out of it.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

No offence but this is nonsense. He likely was speaking Irish to try and get out of the ticket and to be awkward with the Guards.

Naw T he sounds like one of those gobshítes that has to make a point regardles. It's common enough among many activists of all hues. The problem is it is insular thinking and generally just serves to exclude those who may well be on their side. He could have continued in English when it was clear the Guard couldn't understand Irish and make a formal complaint after the fact, raise awareness etc, but he chose to make his little cultural/political point. Fair enough, that is his right and I would support that, but it's my right to think he was being difficult for the sake of it and IMHO it did his viewpoint or the language no good.

Wibbs wrote: »

Many moons ago I actually took a business phonecall from a guy who kicked off in Irish. I politely and apologetically explained I didn't understand nearly enough(and that's putting it mildly) to conduct our business through Irish. The guy ignored this and kept on in Irish. My politeness lasted a good couple of minutes with me again explaining and apologising for my lack of Irish, just as I would if the person had kicked off in any other language. This started to wane as I knew damn well he had full fluency in English and was just being a monumental dickhead trying to make his point. Given I'm not some gov agency that requires any Irish speakers on staff, I had enough and told him in plain language which he clearly understood why I thought he was being an utter tool. This did not go down well and like a pretentious drunk whose accent goes down a notch he flipped into English. Quite aggressively too. Turned out I was wrong in one way, his command of English was pretty lacking, which of course I had to point out. He also wittered on about his "rights". I gather he rang other people in my industry with the same tack. The real joke was one of my competitors PA's originally hails from Mayo and is a fluent Irish speaker and apparently this gobshíte's Irish was of the "book Irish" kind, so she laughed him out of it.

So that's your excuse? Honestly. Did that really happen?

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

Are you just trying to be obtuse? What exactly is the point you are trying to make?
Choosing to speak Irish instead of English is not a crime, it is not an arrestable offence. That someone was arrested for choosing to speak Irish instead of English is an utter disgrace in my opinion.

No I'm not. The man was not arrested for speaking Irish. Claiming he was is sensationalist in the extreme. The man was arrested because the gardai could not identify him. It would be the same if he was speaking Chinese. Personally I feel no sympathy for the twat.

Coles wrote: »

Apologies! I assumed you had been educated in Ireland and had spent 14 years learning the language.

Apologies, I assumed you were familiar with the fact that while everyone here has, during the past 80 years been subjected to 14 years of compulsory Irish language lessons, this has not resulted in Irish people choosing Irish as their common language.

Wibbs

Coles wrote: »

So Wibbs. What's your excuse?

For what? Not having fluent Irish today? My explanation rather than excuse is that it quite simply had near zero relevance for me growing up. I'm a Dubliner for many generations on both sides. No one in my family has spoken Irish as a natural part of their lives for at least 150-200 years. A couple of relatives who entered the civil service back in the day learned it alright*.

Plus bear in mind I'm not the same generation as many here. I grew up at the tail end of "old Catholic Ireland". As a kid I saw pope John Paul George Ringo II in the Phoenix park, saw the news of moving statues and all that backward guff. TBH the language was a part of that BS in my mind. Fainnes and cassocks and the myths of old Ireland and closed insular minds, the dancing, stiff bodied at the crossroads ballsology.

So in Irish class I largely switched off. Ditto for religion class and back then the latter wasn't the easy thing it is today. In fact I once got suspended from school on the religion score. I actually have some facility for languages. Listening and in the written word anyway, in speaking I'm appalling. I got into French and Latin handy enough and wouldn't mind digging into Old Irish TBH. If you were to say my lack of mathematical knowledge was down to being thick, I'd raise a glass and agree. Little or no facility there I had or have, but Irish was a different thing.

As I grew up I realised it was a worthwhile language and a real part of our heritage that needs preservation, but still found the rabid Gaelgoiri a real block for me. I positively hate and will buck against being told what to believe and think and define as "my culture" The joke is the English tried that shíte for many a generation and it didn't take as people can smell BS a mile off.

So that's your excuse? Honestly. Did that really happen?

No. See above. And yes it did happen. I'm surprised that you're surprised given the Guard incident. TBH we were all convinced he was some journo trying to raise a story.

*before the West Brit shíte is trotted out, many members of my family fought and died for this nation when others were hiding behind their mothers skirts. Or claiming to have been "in the GPO" hoping for a medal and a pension. As my grandmother put it, if that many had been in the GPO as have subsequently claimed the queue would have run to Donabate and the Brits would have run away at the very thought of them.

opti0nal wrote: »

Apologies, I assumed you were familiar with the fact that while everyone here has, during the past 80 years been subjected to 14 years of compulsory Irish language lessons, this has not resulted in Irish people choosing Irish as their common language.

Eh? Everywhere I go the language is used on a daily basis. It might be basic greetings or farewells, it might be on radio and television. It might be in everyday conversation, but when you open your ears you start hearing it everywhere.

It's a very common language when you can hear it!

You probably mistake it for a foreign language.:rolleyes:

keith16

I hate the way Mandarin Chinese is always rolled out as a somehow more useful / ultimate language in these arguments. Anyone care to elaborate beyond spouting a tired cliché?

Coles wrote: »

It's a very common language when you can hear it!

Even if you want to argue it's A common language, you cannot by any stretch claim it's THE common language of Ireland.

Though I'm sure you'll give it a try...

keith16 wrote: »

I hate the way Mandarin Chinese is always rolled out as a somehow more useful / ultimate language in these arguments. Anyone care to elaborate beyond spouting a tired cliché?

According to Wiki, Mandarin has 955 million native speakers. Irish has 133,000.

Even debating the figures (and I'm sure someone will), Mandarin is spoken by several hundred million more people globally than Irish.

Wibbs wrote: »

For what? Not having fluent Irish today? My explanation rather than excuse is that it quite simply had near zero relevance for me growing up. I'm a Dubliner for many generations on both sides. No one in my family has spoken Irish as a natural part of their lives for at least 150-200 years. A couple of relatives who entered the civil service back in the day learned it alright.

See this. I come across this a lot. 'Selective Ancestry'. Did you know that if you go back 200 years you had approximately 256 lines of ancestry? And none of them spoke Irish!? There's a far higher likelihood that the vast majority of them did! But you select the ones that suit the your current cultural bias. Interesting, eh?

Plus bear in mind I'm not the same generation as many here. I grew up at the tail end of "old Catholic Ireland". As a kid I saw pope John Paul George Ringo II in the Phoenix park, saw the news of moving statues and all that backward guff.

Me too! Me too! I'm getting pretty old too! I remember all that stuff.

TBH the language was a part of that BS in my mind. Fainnes and cassocks and the myths of old Ireland and closed insular minds, the dancing, stiff bodied at the crossroads ballsology.

So in Irish class I largely switched off. Ditto for religion class and back then the latter wasn't the easy thing it is today. In fact I once got suspended from school on the religion score. I actually have some facility for languages. Listening and in the written word anyway, in speaking I'm appalling. I got into French and Latin handy enough and wouldn't mind digging into Old Irish TBH.

I was right. It's an attitiude problem. And you pass it on to the younger generation too. Like all the kids here. You're making excuses for them to be lazy. No doubt you would do it for your own kids too.

As I grew up I realised it was a worthwhile language and a real part of our heritage that needs preservation, but still found the rabid Gaelgoiri a real block for me.

You're just making excuses now...

ZeitgeistGlee

Coles wrote: »

I'm not sure how you continue to miss the point that the Irish language is THE FIRST OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF THE STATE. Think about that for a moment. As agents of the State the Gardai are required to be able to conduct their business through Irish.

I suppose that explains why 99% of Irish people communicate entirely through English then doesn't it.

Let's be bluntly honest here, if you're trying to deal with someone who doesn't speak your preferred language but instead one you speak equally fluently or with a high proficiency it's simply common courtesy that you use that language.

This is especially true in an emergency where your attempt should be focused on resolving the situation in question rather than grandstanding about your right to be conversed through Irish.

Coles wrote: »

What are you talking about? There is no 'English-speaking' area of the country! The Irish Language is now permitted to be used EVERYWHERE! And it is. FFS.

I think you'll find in common parlance the "English-speaking" area of the country is everywhere in the country where English is used as the primary or sole language of communication, with the same applying for the term "Irish-speaking" areas referring to the Gaeltachts and other associated districts.

Coles wrote: »

What's this 'All' stuff? The people who hate the language are a small minority, but you're vocal. You say it a lot.

And it's not that you never tried to learn the Irish language, is it? You tried for 14 years, right? For 14 years!! And you can't speak a word of it! I've suggested that you have a bad attitude towards the language. That was generous of me but I'm well aware that there is also a real possibility that something else is going on. It was wrong for me to infer that you might have an intellectual disability. I'm sorry.

Because, as has been repeatedly asserted by others and repeatedly ignored by yourself the appalling retention of Irish among the vast majority of children post-secondary level could not at all be down to the manner in which the Irish curriculum is structured or taught.

I don't hate Irish, I dislike the attitude of many of its proponents and the disproportionate level of support it gets but that is a far cry from hatred.

laoch na mona wrote: »

for me its a matter of culture

Again different people have different interpretations as to what constitutes "Irish culture" and the inclusion of Irish as a language may not necessarily be part of it.

laoch na mona wrote: »

we have this beautiful an unique language why would we not like to use it.

Because it practical terms it has no use.

laoch na mona wrote: »

anyone who says it is not part of our culture is ignoring the fact that it is on of the few native cultural traits we have (anglo irish culture is great as well)

Refer to my above statement regarding culture.

Out of curiosity, what constitutes "Anglo-Irish" culture vs "Irish" culture?

laoch na mona wrote: »

everything should be done to revive it

Define the limits of "everything"?

An Coilean wrote: »

http://www.gaelport.com/default.aspx?treeid=37&NewsItemID=9465

Do you by any chance have another source, cynical of me to say but an Irish language source may be biased with regards to the facts of the incident.

An Coilean wrote: »

Choosing to speak Irish instead of English is not a crime, it is not an arrestable offence. That someone was arrested for choosing to speak Irish instead of English is an utter disgrace in my opinion.

He was not arrested for speaking Irish, he was arrested/detained for having committed a traffic offence (as has been established and went unchallenged) and then brought to the local Garda station until an Irish-speaking officer was available to communicate with him. This as I already outlined is standard procedure. The assumption is that the accused does not have a sufficient communicable level of English to understand his rights and to be able to answer to the charge levelled against him.

The fact that the man could clearly speak English and chose not to meant he either had an agenda, or was being a prat and hoping they'd let him go because they had more important offences to be dealing with.

Frankly the Garda Commissioners statement reeks of "This stupidity isn't worth fighting, let's just make a vague apology, say we'll make changes and ignore it".

Coles wrote: »

Eh? Everywhere I go the language is used on a daily basis. It might be basic greetings or farewells, it might be on radio and television. It might be in everyday conversation, but when you open your ears you start hearing it everywhere.

It's a very common language when you can hear it!

You probably mistake it for a foreign language.:rolleyes:

And yet again the superiority complex rears its head, Irish is everywhere we English-speakers are just so ignorant we think it's a foreign language.

That apology rings rather hollow now.