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Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Larbre34

An Coimisinéir Teanga is at it again, forcing an Irish language awareness programme on the Gardaí, a force so stretched and weary they have barely the time and resources to fulfil their role in English, never mind find the time to learn operational Irish.

All told, An Coimisinéir forces a huge amount of wasted expenditure on state bodies, in terms of signage, reports and publications, made available for a population where 95% of the functional language is English.

So, in this time of belt-tightening, is An Coimisinéir a luxury we can afford? Would the money be better spent encouraging the use and love of the first official language willingly and voluntarily, rather than forcibly?

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clairefontaine

Wibbs wrote: »

Obviously not "all", but yes and at a massively higher rate than the Irish diaspora, even today. At one time pre WW1 German was America's second language and still holds out in some areas today. Nearly a million Italians report they speak it at home. The Dutch make up around 4 million Americans, yet over 100,000 of them have the language. French and dialects of same are the fourth most spoken languages in the US with over 2 million speakers. The Ducth have been there since the 1600, the French not long after that. Lest we forget the Chinese who've been there since around the time we were and that language(s) is the third most spoken after English and Spanish. Irish people? around 40 million of that ancestry. Irish speakers? 20,000.

Wibbs, one of the reasons Italian and German are more evident is because Italian and German are often offerred in school as your second language choice, not because your grandparents handed it down to you. So if your grandparents or heritage is German or Italian, you can take it in school.

Often the bi lingualism ends at the first generation and that cuts across all ethnicities. One of the reasons for this is necessity. If your parents don't speak English, you are the translator for them so you have to know two languages, English and your parents' mother tongue. By second generation, this is no longer an issue. Irish Americans never had this duty or burden because their parents spoke English.

Secondly, no curriculum in a US school will offer Irish as a second language. They would like at you like you had five heads, akin to asking for lessons in Icelandic or Inuit or some other seriously minority language.

Lelantos

I have no idea who the mod is on this thread, but the Irish Language Commissioner doesn't get a mention in 90% of these posts. If its a pro language/anti language thread, fine, but at least change the title to reflect the road its travelling down.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Lelantos wrote: »

I have no idea who the mod is on this thread, but the Irish Language Commissioner doesn't get a mention in 90% of these posts. If its a pro language/anti language thread, fine, but at least change the title to reflect the road its travelling down.

Don't think threads have moderators, the just check in and out and react to specifcallly reported posts.

This was always going to happen, though. A few points are made by the con camp and we're automatically "language-haters" and ignorami because we never had the right attitude.

More than one way to skin a whatever.

PopePalpatine

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Coles most certainly has, apparently anyone who doesn't come out of secondary education with fully fluent Irish is simply some low-class, lowbrow, anglo-americophile.

What more do you expect from the "Gaelic Taliban"?

The Irish language debate reminds me of the discussion of whether we should secularise our schools - those who oppose secularisation of schools often ask/demand respect for their religion, and yet attack their opponents with such venom.

ZeitgeistGlee

PopePalpatine wrote: »

The Irish language debate reminds me of the discussion of whether we should secularise our schools - those who oppose secularisation of schools often ask/demand respect for their religion, and yet attack their opponents with such venom.

That was actually a question I've been debating whether or not I'd add to the mix. Do proponents of the historic definition of what it is to be culturally "Irish" include adherence to the Catholic faith? Being Catholic was easily as defining for an Irish person (perhaps even more so) than being able to speak Irish.

Duggys Housemate

PopePalpatine wrote: »

What more do you expect from the "Gaelic Taliban"?

The Irish language debate reminds me of the discussion of whether we should secularise our schools - those who oppose secularisation of schools often ask/demand respect for their religion, and yet attack their opponents with such venom.

The Taleban are the anti-Irish fascists.

This is atrocious. The anti-Irish arguments are puerile strawmen. The argument is whether a speaker of Irish should have access to services in that native language. Not about "your identity as an Irishman", the GAA, or even mandatory education. All strawmen.

Right wing bigots of the majority language in all bilingual, or multilingual countries exist - the English speakers who hate Spainish in the US, the Canadians who hate French, the French speakers who hate Breton, the English who hate Welsh.

In general these people are bigoted fascists or nationalists. Only in Ireland do the majority speakers see themselves as oppressed by the very existence of a minority language and its catering to by the State.

Duggys Housemate

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

That was actually a question I've been debating whether or not I'd add to the mix. Do proponents of the historic definition of what it is to be culturally "Irish" include adherence to the Catholic faith? Being Catholic was easily as defining for an Irish person (perhaps even more so) than being able to speak Irish.

Why don't you take that strawmen argument to another thread along with the "I'm as Irish as a Gaelgoir" nonsense.

The question is merely whether a minority indigenous language should be catered to by the State - in particular the Police. The rest is the typical caterwauling of majoritarianism.

I don't speak Irish daily but I believe native Irish speakers , self defined or not, should have access to services in their language.

And let's be clear. Nobody is saying Irish only, banning English. The intolerance is all the anti-Irish side.

opti0nal

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Only in Ireland do the majority speakers see themselves as oppressed by the very existence of a minority language and its catering to by the State.

In Ireland, native English-speaking children forced to speak Irish. That's oppressive and abusive.

ZeitgeistGlee

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Why don't you take that strawmen argument to another thread along with the "I'm as Irish as a Gaelgoir" nonsense.

And how about you learn to differentiate between actual statements intended for discussion of the topic and replies of a conversational nature between two posters (hint: mine was the latter). Of course it is an entirely relevant question given the Irish-speakers have lambasted the rest of us for abandoning what they perceive as a central pillar to "our culture" irrespective of whether we share their view as to what constitutes "our culture".

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The question is merely whether a minority indigenous language should be catered to by the State - in particular the Police. The rest is the typical caterwauling of majoritarianism.

I don't speak Irish daily but I believe native Irish speakers , self defined or not, should have access to services in their language.

And where, pray tell has anyone stated that Irish speakers should not have access to services in their language? Or are you suggesting that retiring the Irish Language Commissioner due to recessionary budgetary constraints is the same as scrapping the Irish language?

There have been questions raised about whether or not Irish-speakers have been overindulged financially but again that's an entirely different animal to abolition and suppression.

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

And let's be clear. Nobody is saying Irish only, banning English.

I think you'll find that Coles argued for exactly that, indeed he lauded the French for essentially exterminating local dialects to replace with French in order to strengthen their cultural bonds.

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The intolerance is all the anti-Irish side.

You're evidently not paying attention to the thread if you think that's even remotely accurate.

Duggys Housemate

opti0nal wrote: »

In Ireland, native English-speaking children forced to speak Irish. That's oppressive and abusive.

Why is it any more "oppressive" than Irish speakers being forced to speak English. Note: size of population is not a valid argument.

opti0nal

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Why is it any more "oppressive" than Irish speakers being forced to speak English. Note: size of population is not a valid argument.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Mick ah

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Why is it any more "oppressive" than Irish speakers being forced to speak English. Note: size of population is not a valid argument.

In modern Ireland no one forces the Irish speakers to speak English. They do so because they wish to communicate with the majority of people on this island. They do so because they wish to share in the relative economic prosperity of the English speaking community by trading with them. They speak English because the point of being able to speak is to communicate. When speaking Irish is feasible, they speak it.

Due the the relative sizes of the two populations (that is, those who can effectively communicate through Irish, and those who can only effectively communicate though English) most people who can speak Irish also choose to speak English, so that their daily lives are made easier. For the English speakers the reverse is not true, and many will get through life after formal education never needing to speak another word of Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Why is it any more "oppressive" than Irish speakers being forced to speak English. Note: size of population is not a valid argument.

You have every right to speak Irish as mush as your heart's content. What's the problem?

Coles

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

You have every right to speak Irish as mush as your heart's content. What's the problem?

Eh? Getting arrested by a Garda for speaking Irish, perhaps? When you're feeling lost in a thread always refer back to the opening post.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Coles wrote: »

Eh? Getting arrested by a Garda for speaking Irish, perhaps? When you're feeling lost in a thread always refer back to the opening post.

No one's been arrested by the Gardai for speakign Irish. Unless it was for saying soemthing that would have gotten them arrested irrespective of the langauge chosen.

An Coilean

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

No one's been arrested by the Gardai for speakign Irish. Unless it was for saying soemthing that would have gotten them arrested irrespective of the langauge chosen.

Eh, I suggest you have a read of The Language Commissioners Report for 2012.

A complaint was made to the Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga that a man had been unjustly arrested, because he asked a Garda to deal with him
through Irish when he was stopped in relation to a traffic offence. The man
was taken in handcuffs to a Garda station where he was detained until a
Garda was available who could speak with him in Irish.

The complainant said that the experience left him “shamed and insulted
and I was told several times that I did not have a right to conduct business
through Irish, that I should desist and that I would not have been arrested
if I hadn’t spoken in Irish

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

Eh, I suggest you have a read of The Language Commissioners Report for 2012.

The man wasn't arrested for speaking Irish. He was arrested because he refused to speak English.

Wibbs

Still more than a slight overreaction on the part of the cop. Yea so your man was being a bit of a dick, but IMHO the Guard arresting and handcuffing the guy was being the bigger one. Slap him with a ticket for the traffic offence and let the courts deal with him. I'm quite sure he wouldn't have arrested and handcuffed a I dunno Spanish bloke for the same reason over a traffic offence.

Mick ah

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm quite sure he wouldn't have arrested and handcuffed a I dunno Spanish bloke for the same reason over a traffic offence.

Be honest with yourself here though. Plenty of spaniards do not have proficiency in English. While 99% of irish people do.

The man in question was probably well capable of speaking English to the gard, but instead insisted on speaking irish, probably thinking he'd get out of a ticket.

If someone has committed an offence and the gard (seemingly) cannot communicate with the offender. Then what other course of action would you suggest he take? Let him off?

ZeitgeistGlee

An Coilean wrote: »

Eh, I suggest you have a read of The Language Commissioners Report for 2012.

I suggest you read that with a modicum of common sense.

The complainant was pulled over for a traffic offence, ergo he had done something wrong.
He attempted to communicate with the Garda who stopped him through Irish.
The Garda was evidently unable to fulfil this request. The complainant chose not to proceed through English even though he was clearly capable.
The complainant was detained (as it has already been established he committed a traffic offence) until a Garda who spoke Irish was available.
His formal complaint and its content =/= the full unbiased facts of the incident.

A friend of mine is a Garda over in Wicklow, if a person requests to be dealt with through Irish they are detained either at the scene or at the local station until an Irish-speaking Garda is available to deal with them. This is standard procedure for anyone who cannot, does not, or will not speak English.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

Eh, I suggest you have a read of The Language Commissioners Report for 2012.

The language commissioner's office would be clearly biased to maintain the extraordinary powers granted to it and, instead of taking a common sense view, decides to make the most out of an incident where the complainant chose to bring consequences upon himself despite being an English-speaker in an English-speaking area of the country when he brought himself to the attention of the Gardai.

He should have been charged with wasting Garda time.

Lets's put a stop to this nonsense: Abolish the OLA.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

Eh, I suggest you have a read of The Language Commissioners Report for 2012.

As others have pointed out, he was not arrested for speaking Irish.

He was detained for a traffic offence. He had two choices

1 - Deal with the situation in Irish, albeit with a delay.
2 - Deal with the situation in English.

He choice the first option. I'd say the handcuffs were a touch rough, but without a copy of the report (which a quick google fails to turn up and I don't have time for a slow google) we really only have your word for it that the handcuffs were even used, don't we, AC? Come to think of it, we only have your word that an arrest was even made.

Coles

Wibbs wrote: »

Still more than a slight overreaction on the part of the cop. Yea so your man was being a bit of a dick, but IMHO the Guard arresting and handcuffing the guy was being the bigger one. Slap him with a ticket for the traffic offence and let the courts deal with him. I'm quite sure he wouldn't have arrested and handcuffed a I dunno Spanish bloke for the same reason over a traffic offence.

I'm not sure how you continue to miss the point that the Irish language is THE FIRST OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF THE STATE. Think about that for a moment. As agents of the State the Gardai are required to be able to conduct their business through Irish.

How was the person 'being a bit of a dick'? Do you have a list of other Constitutional Rights that can be trampled over by dumb asses?:rolleyes:

Coles

opti0nal wrote: »

...in an English-speaking area of the country...

What are you talking about? There is no 'English-speaking' area of the country! The Irish Language is now permitted to be used EVERYWHERE! And it is. FFS.

marienbad

Coles wrote: »

What are you talking about? There is no 'English-speaking' area of the country! The Irish Language is now permitted to be used EVERYWHERE! And it is. FFS.

Talk about deliberately misinterpreting ! Who said anything about it not being permitted ?

And of course there is an English speaking area . At least there is in the common understanding of such a phrase.

opti0nal

Coles wrote: »

What are you talking about? There is no 'English-speaking' area of the country! The Irish Language is now permitted to be used EVERYWHERE! And it is. FFS.

...An area where English is the primary language spoken by the majority of the population?

Of course, you can speak Irish as much as you like.....enjoy.

opti0nal

Coles wrote: »

Do you have a list of other Constitutional Rights that can be trampled over by dumb asses?:rolleyes:

You mean like forcing English-speaking children to speak Irish?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Coles wrote: »

I'm not sure how you continue to miss the point that the Irish language is THE FIRST OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF THE STATE. Think about that for a moment. As agents of the State the Gardai are required to be able to conduct their business through Irish.

How was the person 'being a bit of a dick'? Do you have a list of other Constitutional Rights that can be trampled over by dumb asses?:rolleyes:

You guys are really clutching at straws, now. Let's sum up:

"You all hate the langauge!"
"You're all thick because you never tried to learn the langauge!"
"People are getting arrested for speaking the language!"*
"I'm being denied my basic human rights because YOU won't learn Irish so you can speak to ME in the language I CHOOSE!"*
"It's the FIRST OFFICAL STATE OF THE LANAGUGE, so..... so... so there!"

Three of which are balant lies, the fourth is hypocritical and the fifth is merely a fact of convenience and doesn't really mean much.

"Hello, and welcome to the Springfield Police Department Resc-u-Fone. If you know the name of the felony being committed, press one. To choose from a list of felonies, press two. If you are being murdered or calling from a rotary phone, please stay on the line. Más mian leat tuairisc a thabhairt duit dúnmharú as Gaeilge, preas trí."

*admittedly not all from the same poster, but the best anyone on the pro-camp can come up with it would seem.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Coles wrote: »

Do you have a list of other Constitutional Rights that can be trampled over by dumb asses?:rolleyes:

What happens to your consititutional rights when you travel abroad?

laoch na mona

I don,t agree with irish speakers being victims as in being a dick about non irish speakers for me its a matter of culture we have this beautiful an unique language why would we not like to use it. anyone who says it is not part of our culture is ignoring the fact that it is on of the few native cultural traits we have (anglo irish culture is great as well) everything should be done to revive it