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Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Larbre34

An Coimisinéir Teanga is at it again, forcing an Irish language awareness programme on the Gardaí, a force so stretched and weary they have barely the time and resources to fulfil their role in English, never mind find the time to learn operational Irish.

All told, An Coimisinéir forces a huge amount of wasted expenditure on state bodies, in terms of signage, reports and publications, made available for a population where 95% of the functional language is English.

So, in this time of belt-tightening, is An Coimisinéir a luxury we can afford? Would the money be better spent encouraging the use and love of the first official language willingly and voluntarily, rather than forcibly?

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Coles

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

The number of Irish people who have no level of English at all with which to communicate is functionally nil I imagine.

English shouldn't be taught in school. It's a complete waste of resources that we just can't afford in these tough times. Everyone already knows the language anyway. Or they can learn it on the telly, innit?

Iwasfrozen

Coles wrote: »

English shouldn't be taught in school. It's a complete waste of resources that we just can't afford in these tough times. Everyone already knows the language anyway. Or they can learn it on the telly, innit?

You'd have a point if the English language was taught in schools post primary.

Coles

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You'd have a point if the English language was taught in schools post primary.

You're in for a big shock when you go to secondary school.

Iwasfrozen

Coles wrote: »

You're in for a big shock when you go to secondary school.

Been there done that my friend. 6 years in the local VEC and not once were we taught the English language. Studied lots of literature and prose though and a little bit of Irish history thrown in.

feargale

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So from that I would assume you are in favour of scrapping the commissioner? A man whose sole purpose is to impose his view of the language on other people.

Difficult to see how you could assume from my post that I'm for or against anything specific. I've expressed a view in very general terms. My only other post in this thread is about 18 back, and has either been overlooked or considered unworthy of a response by everybody here.

Coles

"It woz learnin Irish wat made me tick, innit."

That's quite a popular claim made by really stupid people. They think that if they didn't have to learn Irish then they would have excelled at their other subjects. Seriously, they think that. Some even claim that they hated Irish so much that they stopped going to school altogether.

And where does their hatred come from? That's an interesting question and I'm not sure if it has a simple answer, but usually they they have been brought up in a household where the parents have had limited education and the children are not expected to put in much effort either. And the same attitude will be passed on to the next generation too...

"Ders Sumfink betta on da telly, innit."

Coles

And if a Garda has gone through 14 years of learning Irish in school and still can't speak the language then I think it's fair to say he's probably a bit too thick for the job. 14 years and he still couldn't speak the language?! WTF?

PopePalpatine

Coles wrote: »

"It woz learnin Irish wat made me tick, innit."

That's quite a popular claim made by really stupid people. They think that if they didn't have to learn Irish then they would have excelled at their other subjects. Seriously, they think that. Some even claim that they hated Irish so much that they stopped going to school altogether.

And where does their hatred come from? That's an interesting question and I'm not sure if it has a simple answer, but usually they they have been brought up in a household where the parents have had limited education and the children are not expected to put in much effort either. And the same attitude will be passed on to the next generation too...

"Ders Sumfink betta on da telly, innit."

I'd guess that those who claim that "learning Irish made them stupider" probably mean something along the lines of, "I could have used that time to study another subject or improve whatever other subjects I have".

I dropped down to OL Irish for the Leaving Cert because I knew it was my weakest subject, and I wasn't going to try to aim for a B3/C1 in HL Irish at the expense of dropping down a grade in a few other subjects.

Coles

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'd guess that those who claim that "learning Irish made them stupider" probably mean something along the lines of, "I could have used that time to study another subject or improve whatever other subjects I have".

They would say that, wouldn't they? But really they just didn't make the effort when they had the chance. If they wanted to take extra subjects they should have done that.

No, it's just an another excuse made by people who will always just make excuses.

"I cud a bean a docta, innit, bu I woz playin' X-box."

"I h8 Irish coz I like Ballroom Dancing on Ice, innit."

Iwasfrozen

Coles wrote: »

"It woz learnin Irish wat made me tick, innit."

That's quite a popular claim made by really stupid people. They think that if they didn't have to learn Irish then they would have excelled at their other subjects. Seriously, they think that. Some even claim that they hated Irish so much that they stopped going to school altogether.

And where does their hatred come from? That's an interesting question and I'm not sure if it has a simple answer, but usually they they have been brought up in a household where the parents have had limited education and the children are not expected to put in much effort either. And the same attitude will be passed on to the next generation too...

"Ders Sumfink betta on da telly, innit."

Very few people hate the language and I don't think the case can be made that learning Irish makes you more stupid but certainly given the time constraints on leaving cert students many will (rightly) realise that investing time in Irish will be to the detriment of other subjects they consider more important for their future careers. Being forward thinking like this certainly shouldn't be considered characteristic of a lack of intelligence. If any thing it's the contrary. Definitely I wouldn't be as happy as I am today in the course I wanted if I didn't sacrifice Irish and give the time over to other subjects. Am I stupid too because I dared play to my strengths?

It's also quite racist of you to associate stupidity with a northern English accent. There's plenty smarter people then you in Manchester. People who would't dismiss you as stupid once they heard your accent.

Mick ah

Coles wrote: »

And where does their hatred come from? That's an interesting question and I'm not sure if it has a simple answer, but usually they they have been brought up in a household where the parents have had limited education and the children are not expected to put in much effort either. And the same attitude will be passed on to the next generation too...

I have a passionate hatred for people wasting my time. I felt learning Irish as a waste of my time. I felt this from a very young age. Did I get this from my parents who always encouraged me to work hard in school and pushed me to do the best I could academically so that I would eventually bash out a decent leaving and attend the top college in the country? Attend it to do engineering, where, guess what, maffs and all are used innit, not irish.

I won't begrudge people for wanting to learn Irish. In fact I feel that if it wasn't shoved down everyone's throats there'd be more good will towards the language. I feel that making it optional wouldn't just improve the standard of the language among those who are learning it in school, but would eventually have more people wanting to learn it.

And the case for the language isn't helped when despite a lot of people saying it's "our" language, it really isn't. Most people cannot speak it, their parents cannot speak it, neither their grandparents and so on. So how could it be their language unless they make the effort to go and learn it, willingly.

It's also not helped by native speakers and their high horses. I have a friend who is studying to be a primary school teacher. Every year they have to go to the gaeltacht. There they're just "dubs learning Irish." It's sad that that is how the locals feel, because without dubs learning Irish there'd be a considerable fall in revenue for their local economy.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Coles wrote: »

"It woz learnin Irish wat made me tick, innit."

No, because they don't teach Irish in the East End of London.

That's quite a popular claim made by really stupid people. They think that if they didn't have to learn Irish then they would have excelled at their other subjects. Seriously, they think that. Some even claim that they hated Irish so much that they stopped going to school altogether.

Not as stupid as the making of assumptions and passing them off as fact: some of us genuinely DID excel at the other subjects!

And where does their hatred come from? That's an interesting question and I'm not sure if it has a simple answer, but usually they they have been brought up in a household where the parents have had limited education and the children are not expected to put in much effort either. And the same attitude will be passed on to the next generation too...

Again we need explain the idea of "fact" versus "opinion" idea. Before you can explain the hatred, you fist have to prove it even exists!

Coles wrote: »

And if a Garda has gone through 14 years of learning Irish in school and still can't speak the language then I think it's fair to say he's probably a bit too thick for the job. 14 years and he still couldn't speak the language?! WTF?

You're leaning towards trolling, now. No one is that misinformed...

Stained Class

Mick ah wrote: »

I have a passionate hatred for people wasting my time. I felt learning Irish as a waste of my time. I felt this from a very young age. Did I get this from my parents who always encouraged me to work hard in school and pushed me to do the best I could academically so that I would eventually bash out a decent leaving and attend the top college in the country? Attend it to do engineering, where, guess what, maffs and all are used innit, not irish.

I won't begrudge people for wanting to learn Irish. In fact I feel that if it wasn't shoved down everyone's throats there'd be more good will towards the language. I feel that making it optional wouldn't just improve the standard of the language among those who are learning it in school, but would eventually have more people wanting to learn it.

And the case for the language isn't helped when despite a lot of people saying it's "our" language, it really isn't. Most people cannot speak it, their parents cannot speak it, neither their grandparents and so on. So how could it be their language unless they make the effort to go and learn it, willingly.

It's also not helped by native speakers and their high horses. I have a friend who is studying to be a primary school teacher. Every year they have to go to the gaeltacht. There they're just "dubs learning Irish." It's sad that that is how the locals feel, because without dubs learning Irish there'd be a considerable fall in revenue for their local economy.

Too true Bro!

As the poll stands, it's 183 to 70 to get this parasite off our backs once and for all.

This parasite has been leeching off us for too many years & it's time to call a halt to it.

The people who want it are, in broad terms, well, Leeches in one way or another.

They can fook right off with themselves, as far as I'm concerned!:mad:

ZeitgeistGlee

Coles wrote: »

English shouldn't be taught in school. It's a complete waste of resources that we just can't afford in these tough times. Everyone already knows the language anyway. Or they can learn it on the telly, innit?

Missed the part where I said it should be optional did you? I suppose the mandatory nature of English in school didn't help you much. Of course it's not like becoming proficient and articulate in the most commonly spoken international language has any usage.

Coles wrote: »

"It woz learnin Irish wat made me tick, innit."

That's quite a popular claim made by really stupid people. They think that if they didn't have to learn Irish then they would have excelled at their other subjects. Seriously, they think that. Some even claim that they hated Irish so much that they stopped going to school altogether.

Or perhaps if they had more time to better dedicate to subjects they were more proficient at they'd perform better in school. Amazingly when people are forced into tasks they derive no satisfaction from their productivity and work-interest declines dramatically.

Coles wrote: »

And where does their hatred come from? That's an interesting question and I'm not sure if it has a simple answer, but usually they they have been brought up in a household where the parents have had limited education and the children are not expected to put in much effort either. And the same attitude will be passed on to the next generation too...

And the Gaelgoir high horse rears itself to full height again, "If only the plebs were from educated and erudite households such as our own they'd love Irish, it's their parents fault really." Wonderfully superior. I won't even dignify it with further response as to how wrong it is.

Coles wrote: »

And if a Garda has gone through 14 years of learning Irish in school and still can't speak the language then I think it's fair to say he's probably a bit too thick for the job. 14 years and he still couldn't speak the language?! WTF?

Naturally, I mean if he's too stupid to remember how to communicate in an entirely separate language to the one he'll use 99.9% of the time what hope does he have at being able to remember all those laws he's supposed to enforce. We'd be doing ourselves a favour really, purging all those idiots from the ranks.

starviewadams

Joke of implementation of a language.I studied Irish for 13 years and French for 5 and I can still speak basic French but have no word of conversational Irish.

Irish in it's present form exists to give the tiny majority of Irish speakers employment in the civil service,and their children extra points in the leaving cert.

It's not useful in educating the general population,so the general population shouldn't be forced to pay for it.I'd rather my children were taught a useful European language from primary level instead of Irish.

Irish is basically a hobbie for it's enthusiasts and should receive minimal state funding.

Daithi 1

How about first we scrap poisoning our Countrymen through the water supplies, then we can take better care of the rest ?? EAH ??

J_E

bb1234567 wrote: »

And plus irish is a very easy language to learn for speakers of most languages in europe. I speak irish fluently and when learning it I found it to be much easier to learn than german. The irish grammar is so straight forward. If we had any way half decent irish teachers at primary and secondary schools maybe irish would be spoken more widely and be given a better chance at survival.

Hah! That's a good one! Where did you learn Irish?

Coles wrote: »

"It woz learnin Irish wat made me tick, innit."

That's quite a popular claim made by really stupid people. They think that if they didn't have to learn Irish then they would have excelled at their other subjects. Seriously, they think that. Some even claim that they hated Irish so much that they stopped going to school altogether.

Because I made the mistake of taking HL Irish and having a teacher who would give us classes at weekends just to cover the ridiculous course, I ended up dropping down my Maths to OL and really felt it made an impact on my points overall. I will always regret not doing OL Irish from the get go, the curriculum is criminal. I'm not 'really stupid', by the way, get off your high horse.

Coles

So 14 years of learning Irish and the Garda can't speak it. What a dummy, eh!

It's great to see all the hatred coming out about the language. Really gets to the nub of the problem. ATTITUDE. An inferiority complex about their own culture. And it IS their own culture, despite the vehement attempts to deny it!

And what of the French? We learn their language, and we love it. We have a good ATTITUDE towards their culture and we love their country. But imagine France without French! Impossible, isn't it? It's the very glue that bonds them. It ties them to their history, their ancestors, their land. But 200 years ago almost nobody spoke the language. It was revived in order to tie the disparate sections of their Nation together. To create a strong, proud, progressive and indivisible France, where difference is not just tolerated, but celebrated. Not a nasty mean little country where people are ashamed of their culture. Where they don't just sneer at those who are proud of their past, but actually deny that their past even existed.

krudler

Coles wrote: »

English shouldn't be taught in school. It's a complete waste of resources that we just can't afford in these tough times. Everyone already knows the language anyway. Or they can learn it on the telly, innit?

Have you been on facebook recently? English is something a lot of people could do with learning properly.

Mick ah

Coles wrote: »

it IS their own culture

Who's culture? I'm a Dublin man. It's been hundreds of years since Irish was the language of Dublin. In fact many people from other parts of the country, who would have come from a long line of exclusively Irish speaking people, learned English to come to Dublin and share in its relative prosperity. They then failed to pass on Irish as the language of the home and consequently, their descendants would little or no Irish. Combine this with the people who came to Dublin who never had any Irish in the first place.

But of course, speaking Irish is the culture of the entire island. And it is our language. It certainly is a functional part of everyday life in culturally stagnant Ireland. It isn't just something that involves Dublin people (and many other predominantly English speaking areas) transferring large sums of money to other predominantly Irish speaking areas in order to sustain their existence.

I don't have issues with the language. I have issues with the way it is imposed on the different people of this island because it's their language and part of their culture. I was taught German as if it was a foreign language, because it is. To me Irish is a foreign language, and as an Irish person I'm not alone in that. If I was taught Irish the way I was taught German, I would probably be able to converse in it. Instead it was assumed that I had a fully functioning vocabulary and so prose was the order of the day while in school.

To finish the post I've two anecdotes. See what you all think of them:

Firstly, I was in a night club (in Dublin) and when it finished I went outside. As you do you stand around talking. There was two people from Donegal, I got chatting to them, grand, but then they start speaking Irish to each other, and one directs a question to me in Irish. I tell them I don't speak Irish. Now I'm not fúcking brain dead. I know what "he's an idiot" is in Irish. And that's the next thing they say to each other.

Secondly, for a long time (and I don't know if it's still the case) mothers in gaeltach areas would tell their kids not to talk to strangers. Not unusual. Except it was for a much more sinister reason than "stranger danger." It was because they didn't want and of the language inspectors to hear them speaking English. English they were being taught (at the expense of irish) so that they could go to england or america for a job.

krudler

Mick ah wrote: »

I have a passionate hatred for people wasting my time. I felt learning Irish as a waste of my time. I felt this from a very young age. Did I get this from my parents who always encouraged me to work hard in school and pushed me to do the best I could academically so that I would eventually bash out a decent leaving and attend the top college in the country? Attend it to do engineering, where, guess what, maffs and all are used innit, not irish.

I won't begrudge people for wanting to learn Irish. In fact I feel that if it wasn't shoved down everyone's throats there'd be more good will towards the language. I feel that making it optional wouldn't just improve the standard of the language among those who are learning it in school, but would eventually have more people wanting to learn it.

And the case for the language isn't helped when despite a lot of people saying it's "our" language, it really isn't. Most people cannot speak it, their parents cannot speak it, neither their grandparents and so on. So how could it be their language unless they make the effort to go and learn it, willingly.

It's also not helped by native speakers and their high horses. I have a friend who is studying to be a primary school teacher. Every year they have to go to the gaeltacht. There they're just "dubs learning Irish." It's sad that that is how the locals feel, because without dubs learning Irish there'd be a considerable fall in revenue for their local economy.

Irony being native speakers look down on people learning the language as adults as well

Coles

krudler wrote: »

Irony being native speakers look down on people learning the language as adults as well

That's not actually true, is it? It's just one of those things that is said to discourage others from making the effort.

DEFTLEFTHAND

These people like to be awkward. When one of these plebs has to to go before a District Court they demand their case to be heard in the Irish language. Maybe somebody should tell them that this North Atlantic rock is up sh1t creek and we can't afford them. Maybe they should go and Fcuk themselves instead.

Wibbs

Coles wrote: »

"It woz learnin Irish wat made me tick, innit."

That's quite a popular claim made by really stupid people.

Quite honestly I have never in all my born days heard this.

And where does their hatred come from? That's an interesting question and I'm not sure if it has a simple answer, but usually they they have been brought up in a household where the parents have had limited education and the children are not expected to put in much effort either. And the same attitude will be passed on to the next generation too...

Riiiight so you're saying the vast majority of people of this nation who aren't fluent Irish speakers fit this pattern?

Coles wrote: »

And if a Garda has gone through 14 years of learning Irish in school and still can't speak the language then I think it's fair to say he's probably a bit too thick for the job. 14 years and he still couldn't speak the language?! WTF?

God I do hope you're trolling, but that hope is slim considering I have heard this attitude among too many in the stridently pro Irish language camp. We've seen it every single time in threads on the subject. Two things are sure to come up; one lot will say "Irish is a dead/useless language" and the other will come out with the "Inferiority complex/too stupid to learn the language". Both equally daft.

Coles wrote: »

It's great to see all the hatred coming out about the language. Really gets to the nub of the problem. ATTITUDE. An inferiority complex about their own culture. And it IS their own culture, despite the vehement attempts to deny it!

Same old, same old. Who the hell are you, or anyone else for that matter to tell me or any other Irish person what their culture is? That's some king size presumption going on right there.

And what of the French? We learn their language, and we love it. We have a good ATTITUDE towards their culture and we love their country. But imagine France without French! Impossible, isn't it? It's the very glue that bonds them. It ties them to their history, their ancestors, their land. But 200 years ago almost nobody spoke the language.

200 years ago almost no one spoke French? I'd suggest you do some reading up on history before the same accusation you leveled at the Garda is leveled at you. What were they speaking in France, Greek? There were different dialects alright and there were minority languages like Basque and Breton and there was a drive to standardise the language, but that's a tad different to "almost nobody spoke the [French] language" in France. I've read dafter notions, but rarely enough.

To create a strong, proud, progressive and indivisible France, where difference is not just tolerated, but celebrated.

You do realise that that's a little bit of a contradiction don't you? If difference was tolerated then surely the dialects wouldn't have mattered.

Not a nasty mean little country where people are ashamed of their culture. Where they don't just sneer at those who are proud of their past, but actually deny that their past even existed.

Wut?

krudler wrote: »

Irony being native speakers look down on people learning the language as adults as well

Funny that Ive not come across. In the vast majority of cases I've only heard that kinda guff from the nouveau Gaelgoiri

9959

As the primary function of language is communication, wouldn't it be great if we could read, write and speak in a language understood by hundreds of millions of people throughout the world, a language which the people of most nations are eagerly studying as their preferred choice for a second language, a language that would give us a 'leg-up' in the competive employment markets of America, Canada, Australia and Britain, a language synonymous with the best pop/rock/blues/reggae/jazz music in the world, the language of Joyce, Shakespeare, Steinbeck, Beckett, Dickens, Miller, Wilde, Mailer etc.
The language of most of the greatest films ever made, ......oh hang on, we already speak English, lucky us, now........ WHAT'S THE FUC*ING PROBLEM?

LordSutch

Coles wrote: »

It's great to see all the hatred coming out about the language. Really gets to the nub of the problem. ATTITUDE. An inferiority complex about their own culture. And it IS their own culture, despite the vehement attempts to deny it!

Speaking the Irish language (or not) in most cases, is but just one small aspect of our culture.

Coles wrote: »

And what of the French? We learn their language, and we love it. We have a good ATTITUDE towards their culture and we love their country. But imagine France without French! Impossible, isn't it? It's the very glue that bonds them. It ties them to their history, their ancestors, their land. But 200 years ago almost nobody spoke the language. It was revived in order to tie the disparate sections of their Nation together. To create a strong, proud, progressive and indivisible France, where difference is not just tolerated, but celebrated. Not a nasty mean little country where people are ashamed of their culture. Where they don't just sneer at those who are proud of their past, but actually deny that their past even existed.

Thing is though, this is not France, and we (the Irish people) have allowed Irish to die out over the last two hundred+ years.

The revival plan for the Irish language has now been in place since the 1920s/30s, but going by the results so far the Irish people themselves seem to have rejected the eight decade revival in dramatic fashion, and instead of actually reviving Irish, the master plan has repelled to such an extent that sadly many Irish people dislike the language with a passion.

Like Latin, I doubt that Irish will ever die out altogether, but on the other hand I doubt that it will ever be revived enough to be our National spoken language. Personally I think the mandatory teaching of Irish should be relaxed in order for the language to find its natural 'take up' from parents/ pupils, who wish to pursue this quaint old 'niche' language, from our past . . .

clairefontaine

I think it makes sense to have it as an option in school but no sense to have it as an official language that costs the state millions in duplicate copies of everything. The country cannot afford these kinds of vanity projects.

Coles

Wibbs wrote: »

200 years ago almost no one spoke French? I'd suggest you do some reading up on history. What were they speaking in France, Greek? There were different dialects alright and there were minority languages like Basque and Breton and there was a drive to standardise the language, but that's a tad different to "almost nobody spoke the [French] language" in France. I've read dafter notions, but rarely enough.

Eh? Let's keep it polite. In 1871 only 25% of French people spoke French.

You do realise that that's a little bit of a contradiction don't you? If difference was tolerated then surely the dialects wouldn't have mattered.

Yes and that is precisely why there was a British colonial policy to exterminate our language. We don't need that policy anymore, do we?

Coles

clairefontaine wrote: »

I think it makes sense to have it as an option in school but no sense to have it as an official language that costs the state millions in duplicate copies of everything. The country cannot afford these kinds of vanity projects.

Yes. If it was all just in Irish it would save a fortune. Imagine how quickly people would learn the language! Problem solved.

Coles

LordSutch wrote: »

We (the Irish people) have allowed Irish to die out over the last two hundred+ years.

No we haven't. Irish is flourishing in the Gaelscoileanna and the children are achieving better overall educational results in that system. Parents who adopt a hostile ATTITUDE towards the language put their children at a significant disadvantage. That's their choice and ultimately we'll end up with a subculture of chavs who hate Irish, innit. But they love sumfink like Celebrites Ballroom Dancing on Ice and watching Fulham v Man U on SKYSports Extra Plus Plus.