lmaopml wrote: » So, very simply lets leave God behind folks in this enlightened era. We can do it all on our own - we can agree that we are animals, albeit exceptionally gifted ones with the ability to view the cosmos, explore it and understand it, see beauty, but what is that only a fiction, it's our chemicals doing what they do best - let's get out the calculator.. - at the end of the day let's just be reasonable, and as such we can permit anything form abortion to euthanasia - because we're worth it. Life is a pain after all, and choices are painful. That's what we can do best. We kill pain, we kill everything that involves pain, even the patient because it's kind of ugly dealing with that stuff, and we're not equipped to do anything more than make it go away - there is absolutely no character building in any kind of pain, and provide inoculation to the general public in the form of our rationality, our reasoning and knowing the price of everything, and simultaneously knowing the value of nothing. ..and amazingly enough you wonder why you don't make sense to some people with this brand new world. No thanks.
Brian Shanahan wrote: » Or the logic behind an omnipotent being giving up his omnipotence in order to give lesser beings free will, and thus futzing up his own creation.
philologos wrote: » Lantus: wishful thinking. Unless you fundamentally change the human condition these problems will just manifest themselves in other forms. Humans are inherently selfish and are inherently inclined towards wrong doing. Indeed there's only one person who will and can restore us as human beings and this creation.
Sacksian wrote: » That hasn't been my experience at all and I'm sorry that your experience has led you to that conclusion. Hopefully, in time, perhaps with broader experiences or reading, you'll develop a more positive opinion of humanity. Good luck with your journey!
philologos wrote: » How condescending! Tell me if you look around you, if you pick up the newspaper, if you have any form of interaction with other people, are you telling me that wrongdoing isn't commonplace? I'm sure even on the basis of today's news I could show you a litany of cases of human wrongdoing. Am I wrong? Or are you going to say that a bit more reading will make me wish reality away? Man was created in the Lord's image. Yet we fell and as a result there are clear consequences of this around us. The great news is that there us a Saviour, Jesus who will one day restore all things. Secular humanism is absolutely absurd wishful thinking that doesn't grapple with truth.
Sacksian wrote: » If I look around me, "wrongdoing" is the exception. That is an incontrovertible fact. If I tried to explicitly look for "wrongdoing", I'm sure I could find some but I'd find a hell of a lot more mundane behaviour.
Morbert wrote: » Secular humanism does not hinge on the assumption that man is ultimately "good" or just, or that kindness will ultimately win over selfishness. Instead, it is merely the practise of doing our best to be compassionate individuals, and to nurture those facets of our humanity that permit respect and peace, in spite of the angry, selfish, ruthless facets. To be fair, we actually think Christianity is the position that does not grapple with the truth. The one thing you cannot accuse atheists of is wishful thinking. Most of us would subscribe to the part of Marxism that posits materialism and resource as the primary motivation behind atrocities. Thus, we see men who claim to do God's work cause great destruction and misery, just as we see men who curse God's name cause great destruction and misery.
Lantus wrote: » There is no such thing as a bad person or an evil person or a stupid or selfish person. People are products of society and their environment. When we learn to socially engineer better living environments then most of the problems we have today and the drachonian laws we uphold to try to 'force' behaviour would simply not exist.
philologos wrote: » If it is the exception, why has every single person done wrong in their lives? That's not just an exception, if it affects every single person it is an epidemic. It affects all of us, and has affected all of us. If anything to quote you See above. Unless you're saying that you've never done anything wrong (in which case you'd be a liar, but let's roll with it) sin has affected every single mortal human being irrespective of how "good" or how "moral" they might feel. Every single person has fallen short. Indeed, that's why the Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), and as a result we are all guilty before Him. Thankfully, God in His loving mercy sent Jesus to stand in our place, take the full punishment so that we could be forgiven. Refusing to acknowledge that there is something wrong with the human condition is a fundamental denial of reality and is wishful thinking. People know inherently what is good and what is evil even if they attempt to cop out with this "relative morality" stuff. If I wrong you, I wrong you. If I was fieldshooting humans on a Sunday, you'd rebuke me, and presumably have me arrested, because it is manifestly obvious that that is wrong. You don't spend ages contemplating and humming about saying "well what if in his moral code that fieldshooting humans is OK, why are we imposing our values on him". No sane person does that. When they are wronged they appeal inherently for justice to be done. The problem is that if God did justice to us all, we'd all stand guilty because we've all done wrong, but instead in His kindness God visits His justice upon Jesus so that we can be forgiven. What a wonderful truth.
tommy2bad wrote: » I agree with this and so do most Christians, fear and desire cause most of the troubles in the world. Basic message of Christ was love one another.
tommy2bad wrote: » Hey when it comes to finding reasons for what seems unexplainable christians hold no monoplly. Your right God dosn't provide a set of instructions on how to achive world peace and the end to hunger...no wait! He dose! Blame Charlton Heston for any misunderstandings since then :P
Fanny Cradock wrote: » Christianity offers a different order of explanation and a different avenue of investigation. Very broadly speaking, it might be reduced to exploring the origin and nature of evil.
nagirrac wrote: » I think one of the problems with Christianity is that many (most?) Christians do not understand what Christ's message was. I think it's clear enough if you read the gospels. The biggest mistake many Christians make imho is the thinking that Christ's teaching refers to a next life (the kingdom of God), while it is actually all about this life. Jesus Christ had no time for the rich, for kings, priests, or merchants, he did not think you could follow the path of money and do God's will. There are many people who take false ideas from his teachings, and think he was just a bit of a hippy philosopher and what he said was not that relevant to day to day life. Sure its easy to balance being a good Christian and supporting George Bush. My reading of the gospels is that he was very specific in who he was talking to and not talking to, and he wasn't talking to Dick Chaney.
lmaopml wrote: » How does that destroy my arguement?
Masteroid wrote: » Exactly. Teach a dog that it is a 'biter' and it will bite. Teach a child he is sinful and he will be sinful. Teach a child he is good and ... It's not rocket science.
philologos wrote: » It's not rocket science because it is nonsense. Telling someone they don't have cancer doesn't mean that they don't have it. Telling someone that they have done good when they haven't or telling someone the human condition is inherently good when its obvious that that isn't true from looking around us is an absurdity.Engaging with truth is far better. I'll be going through the other posts later.
Masteroid wrote: » Well, you might think so but the New Tesstament is largely St. Paul's understanding of the words he was told that Jesus said.
John 5:19-29 wrote: So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
philologos wrote: » Show me how it is a mistake
koth wrote: » You'd do well not to not to claim that people are inherently bad/wicked then. And telling someone from a young age they are wicked/evil will undoubtedly have a negative impact on their mind as they grow. They may not become a serial killer but it's certainly not conducive to a healthy mind.
Mark 7:14-23 wrote: And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.” And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
tommy2bad wrote: » http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A34-40&version=NIV Like a lot of things is not an either/or.
philologos wrote: » ?? What are you responding to? - The New Testament is explicitly clear that there is eternal life. It is clear that his teaching is applicable in real life, but that there is very clearly a hereafter also. Therefore it is wrong to conclude that there is no idea of eternity in Jesus' outlook.
tommy2bad wrote: » Well yeah but then again no one did, apart from you who insisted that Jesus spoke about the kingdom meaning the afterlife when nagirrac stated that Jesus talked about the world here and now. Or have I gotten it wrong somewhere? I'm just saying that it not one or the other but both. Life isn't what happens after we die, eternal life starts at birth, or conception or even before that in some mystic traditions.
philologos wrote: » Misinterpretation of the week? What I am saying is that humans are inclined towards doing wrongdoing. To say that this is true, or that this is a common expectation is just to observe what's true around us. At some point or another we're going to fail, we're going to muck up, and more than likely hurt others. I think it is more healthy to give people a realistic idea of the world and that there is indeed something wrong here than to claim that this are all great and that we can in and of ourselves construct some kind of utopia. I'm also not saying that all things are pointless. That would be the last thing that I would say as a Christian. But what I am saying is that things are broken here, and we can't ultimately fix it unless we radically change the human heart which isn't something that you and I can do. Yes we can go for the symptoms or the consequences of the evil intentions that we often have, but these will become manifest again and again in a multitude of ways. There is only one way that the fundamental nature of man can begin to be restored, thankfully as a result of the saving death of Jesus we have the opportunity to look back to the only one who can transform us, the one who made us, and the one whom we rebelled against. It is by looking back to God repenting and putting our full trust in Him. Any thesis that undermines the real cause of hatred, suffering, bitterness, exploitation, greed and anything else will fail. The real cause is our sinful nature: This is a far more pertinent to reality than the atheistic "relative morality" perspective.
philologos wrote: » Misinterpretation of the week? What I am saying is that humans are inclined towards doing wrongdoing. Any thesis that undermines the real cause of hatred, suffering, bitterness, exploitation, greed and anything else will fail. The real cause is our sinful nature: This is a far more pertinent to reality than the atheistic "relative morality" perspective.
philologos wrote: » ?? I'm confused as to what relevance that has to my post. nagirrac said that Jesus' teaching didn't concern the hereafter, and Jesus clearly said it did. That's my point. The Gospels very clearly do point to eternal life. If you think that eternal life really means finite, then you should consider what the word eternal means.
The biggest mistake many Christians make imho is the thinking that Christ's teaching refers to a next life (the kingdom of God), while it is actually all about this life.
tommy2bad wrote: » nagirrc didn't say that Jesus never mentioned the afterlife What he/she said was I kinda agree with him here. The problem with projecting Jesus words onto our concept of the afterlife is it postpones living as redeemed people until we get their.
Sacksian wrote: » I know many people (religious and non-religious alike) who are very much inclined towards good, whose good deeds far, far outweigh any amount of times they have messed up or done "wrong". Your quotation from above: “What comes out of a person is what defiles him...theft, murder, adultery, coveting... All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” I really think it would be worthwhile for you to consider why this view is attractive to you. Have you ever wondered why your view of humanity is so bleak and what experiences have contributed to that view?
