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Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Larbre34

An Coimisinéir Teanga is at it again, forcing an Irish language awareness programme on the Gardaí, a force so stretched and weary they have barely the time and resources to fulfil their role in English, never mind find the time to learn operational Irish.

All told, An Coimisinéir forces a huge amount of wasted expenditure on state bodies, in terms of signage, reports and publications, made available for a population where 95% of the functional language is English.

So, in this time of belt-tightening, is An Coimisinéir a luxury we can afford? Would the money be better spent encouraging the use and love of the first official language willingly and voluntarily, rather than forcibly?

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Chips Lovell

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Same thing with Claregalway. Weird.

Odd. I've asked around down there and no one seems to know why. Unless its someone private individual going on a defacement spree.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Speaking of signs, does anyone know what's going on with Birr? It is, as far as I can see, not in a Gaeltacht area, but I've seen a bunch of signs in the midlands with the English name blocked out.

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Same thing with Claregalway. Weird.

Naitsithe gramadaí? (Them, not you!)

kraggy

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Same thing with Claregalway. Weird.

Claregalway is in the Gaeltacht.

kraggy

Paramite Pie wrote: »

If you think 'Tá' means 'yes' then you need to go back to school.

Nor does 'Níl' mean 'No'

:rolleyes:

While they don't mean "yes" and "no" when translated literally, they do mean "affirmative" and "negative".

I presume you are suggesting that "is ea" or "sea" is the Gaeilge for "yes", well it is and it isn't.

For example, the affirmative answer to the question "an bhfuil aon airgead agat?" (do you have any money?) is not "sea" but "tá".

Which effectively means yes. So I wouldn't get so high and mighty if I were you.

TheBandicoot

Dionysius2 wrote: »

There is no excuse whatsoever for the basic street Guard (as distinct from technician) not to have a few lines of the most fundamental rudimentary lines of Gaelic to enable him to cope with those who wish to exercise their most basic right, ie speak their own mother tongue.

So they should speak a few lines of every language in the world? Otherwise they're oppressing Yo****aka-san from Japan who can not exercise his most basic right of speaking in his own mother tongue?

Oh, and sorry, but Irish is no one's mother tongue. If you were born in Ireland and are still alive right now to read this, English is your mother tongue. The constitution is out of step with reality here and should just be changed. It's just a piece of paper.

TheBandicoot

awec wrote: »

How many Irish people can't actually speak English?

steddyeddy

laoch na mona wrote: »

why does ireland have such a colonial inferiority complex that we cannot embrace our culture

It's interestingly our colonial past that has left some Irish with a self loathing of all things Irish and a like of all things colonial.

bb1234567

Irish is the worlds third oldest language. Only after Latin and Greek. Seeing as Irish is now the oldest living language in the world i think it would be very sad if we didnt make any effort whatsoever and just let it die.

And plus irish is a very easy language to learn for speakers of most languages in europe. I speak irish fluently and when learning it I found it to be much easier to learn than german. The irish grammar is so straight forward. If we had any way half decent irish teachers at primary and secondary schools maybe irish would be spoken more widely and be given a better chance at survival.

opinion guy

bb1234567 wrote: »

Irish is the worlds third oldest language. Only after Latin and Greek. Seeing as Irish is now the oldest living language in the world i think it would be very sad if we didnt make any effort whatsoever and just let it die.

56% of all statistics are made up - everybody knows that

And plus irish is a very easy language to learn for speakers of most languages in europe. I speak irish fluently and when learning it I found it to be much easier to learn than german. The irish grammar is so straight forward. If we had any way half decent irish teachers at primary and secondary schools maybe irish would be spoken more widely and be given a better chance at survival.

Irish grammar is ridiculously complicated - 13 tenses - wtf is that about ?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

bb1234567 wrote: »

Irish is the worlds third oldest language. Only after Latin and Greek. Seeing as Irish is now the oldest living language in the world i think it would be very sad if we didnt make any effort whatsoever and just let it die.

This thread, and the decision by the Irish Langauge Commissoner, be it right or wrong, is nothing about letting it die.

And plus irish is a very easy language to learn for speakers of most languages in europe. I speak irish fluently and when learning it I found it to be much easier to learn than german. The irish grammar is so straight forward. If we had any way half decent irish teachers at primary and secondary schools maybe irish would be spoken more widely and be given a better chance at survival.

Doesn't mean we should learn it, or have to learn it.

gobnaitolunacy

kraggy wrote: »

Claregalway is in the Gaeltacht.

Good for them.
Why is it necessary to have the road signage in Irish only? What was wrong with the way it was?

Dionysius2

Imagine being taught our native tongue for 9 years in the best learning years of your life and not being able to ask two simple playschool questions at the end of that.....what is your name ?......what is your address ?
Says an awful lot about our intelligence, eh ?

Meanwhile Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians and what have you come here in droves.....never had English as a subject at any stage in school in the vast majority of cases yet can muster enough English to work and live and function comfortably and with no bitching whatsoever about any one else's language. Now what does that say about us ? I know there's a ton load of blame for such a debacle but just who is it that deserves that blame ? We will gang up on the govverrmmenttt mighty rapidly but maybe we the people cannot avoid having to accept some of the blame ?

But didn't we change the government umpteen times and that didn't change anything now did it ? Perhaps if we take a look in the nearest mirror we might find who didn't step up to the plate ?

Wibbs

kraggy wrote: »

While they don't mean "yes" and "no" when translated literally, they do mean "affirmative" and "negative".

I presume you are suggesting that "is ea" or "sea" is the Gaeilge for "yes", well it is and it isn't.

For example, the affirmative answer to the question "an bhfuil aon airgead agat?" (do you have any money?) is not "sea" but "tá".

Which effectively means yes. So I wouldn't get so high and mighty if I were you.

IIRC Irish is like Latin in this respect, it doesn't have definitive yes/no responses and "ta" and "sea" are more recent additions. Good additions BTW as it's handy to have in a language and languages evolve. Originally they would be replaced by answers that echo the question. You even see this in Hiberno English. Are you happy? I am. Is it OK? It is. kinda thing.

bb1234567 wrote: »

Irish is the worlds third oldest language. Only after Latin and Greek. Seeing as Irish is now the oldest living language in the world i think it would be very sad if we didnt make any effort whatsoever and just let it die.

Ehhh I dunno where to start with this. Just take Europe. Basque is significantly older than all of those you list. Lithuanian would be older too. Albanian another. I'd throw in Samish as well. Latin and (ancient)Greek are dead languages, so if you're throwing them into the fray Irish is a new kid on the block by comparison. The original pre Celtic language(s) of Ireland would be far older for a start. Irish would have some sort of a claim to be the oldest written language after Greek and Latin alright, but the Irish language you speak today isn't nearly as complex as Old Irish and is about as different to modern Irish as Italian is to Latin. BTW it's not even within spitting distance of the worlds oldest language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dionysius2 wrote: »

Imagine being taught our native tongue for 9 years in the best learning years of your life and not being able to ask two simple playschool questions at the end of that.....what is your name ?......what is your address ?
Says an awful lot about our intelligence, eh ?

Meanwhile Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians and what have you come here in droves.....never had English as a subject at any stage in school in the vast majority of cases yet can muster enough English to work and live and function comfortably and with no bitching whatsoever about any one else's language. Now what does that say about us ? I know there's a ton load of blame for such a debacle but just who is it that deserves that blame ? We will gang up on the govverrmmenttt mighty rapidly but maybe we the people cannot avoid having to accept some of the blame ?

But didn't we change the government umpteen times and that didn't change anything now did it ? Perhaps if we take a look in the nearest mirror we might find who didn't step up to the plate ?

All been discussed, guilty as accused, but if you're implying that I (or anyone else) is not inteiligent because we never bothered with Irish, that is a very moronic comparison to make.

But the question is not do we speak it, the question is should we be required to speak it in certain jobs when such an ablity will not help us do these jobs any better.

PhlegmyMoses

Anyone have any idea of what the cost of the Irish language to the state is, all up? I reckon we could leave teacher salaries out of that as the classes would have to be replaced. It would be a zero-sum situation.

It just seems like people are going against all the wrong targets when they use the Haughey-ism about belt-tightening. We took it up the bum with regards to bank bailouts but we'll not stand for the relatively minuscule amounts the easy targets are costing us.

Wibbs

Dionysius2 wrote: »

Imagine being taught our native tongue

First point it is not our native tongue and hasn't been for the vast majority of the people on this island for well over a century. It is a minority language of some Irish people. f

or 9 years in the best learning years of your life and not being able to ask two simple playschool questions at the end of that.....what is your name ?......what is your address ?
Says an awful lot about our intelligence, eh ?

No it doesn't but that's a common bleat of the Gaelgoir. What it does say and says as Bearla, is that it's not seen as valuable enough a means of communication for the vast majority of Irish people.

Meanwhile Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians and what have you come here in droves.....never had English as a subject at any stage in school in the vast majority of cases yet can muster enough English to work and live and function comfortably and with no bitching whatsoever about any one else's language. Now what does that say about us ?

Ehh try wondering why those folks pick up English? They need it. It's useful in Ireland. They're exposed to it every single day they're here. Hell Irish born and bred I've heard it "in the wild" maybe twice in my life and I've been all over this land of ours. They don't speak Irish quite simply because it's not useful, outside very narrow enclaves of the language. Ever wonder why Scots Gaelic still survives? Why not Pict? It was because Irish speakers who flooded the place culturally, in business and religion.

What is the language of education in this nation? English. Yep we have the Irish schools, but they're mostly primary. When was the last time a doctorate was awarded as Gaelige, that wasn't for an Irish language course? Engineering, medicine, the law, science, philosophy etc? Long time, nearly three centuries since they were in Irish (and it was a different Irish). Business? English. Media? Outside of TG4 et al very little. One Ros na Run does not a "native" language make.

But didn't we change the government umpteen times and that didn't change anything now did it ? Perhaps if we take a look in the nearest mirror we might find who didn't step up to the plate ?

Or who quite simply couldn't be arsed stepping up to the plate because the majority of us don't find it culturally relevant enough to speak it, or necessary enough in our daily lives.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Anyone have any idea of what the cost of the Irish language to the state is, all up? I reckon we could leave teacher salaries out of that as the classes would have to be replaced. It would be a zero-sum situation.

Well, considering they're very publicly tryign to cut back Gardai salaries, the government aren't going to be stumping up much more for the idea in question, but...

It just seems like people are going against all the wrong targets when they use the Haughey-ism about belt-tightening. We took it up the bum with regards to bank bailouts but we'll not stand for the relatively minuscule amounts the easy targets are costing us.

... it's not how much is being spent that people have a problem with, it's how it's being spent.

If we have the money to train Gardai to speak Irish, why do we not have the money to keep 95 gardai stations open?

666irishguy

On the issue of cost I'd take a wild guess that signage alone costs some where in the region of a third extra than if it was written in just English because of the extra people probably bought in to translate, the extra material and design and what not. Official forms must cost at least the same since they have to be basically printed twice with all of the above also. It's always struck me that Irish is symptomatic of the outlook of this country. Teaching a language that can only be used for the most part in our own country for the sake of a long stale revivalist/nationalist ideology. If we were thought Spanish for example the same way as we were forced to learn a dead language like Irish, we'd have a lot of people capable of speaking a passable level of a foreign language or having a huge advantage if they wanted to study it seriously. Very useful in these modern times of globalization. Needing Irish for state jobs is also ridiculous, makes no impact on the majority of their work which will be done in the first language of the country which is whether some people like it or not English. I doubt few people even know or care about the Irish Language Commissioner. Should get the chop.

Boombastic

Yeah, what's the point in swapping it for another language that people in others countries speak and might actually make us more employable? It should be drilled in to us, it's great

anncoates

I was born in England and it always makes me sad that so many people here are so dismissive of the native language of their country

Fair enough if people don't have an interest but the sheer hatred for it is baffling.

Fair enough, it's taught in the wrong way; there is an element of 'benign coercion' in that way that it's forced upon people for some jobs or qualifications and it has an unfortunate vague association with nationalist or religious elements or whatever but it's a little sad that so many people seem to despise their own native language because you can''t speak it abroad or it's not much use on a Deloitte or IBM application

Iwasfrozen

anncoates wrote: »

I was born in England and it always makes me sad that so many people here are so dismissive of the native language of their country

It's not the native language of the country.

anncoates wrote: »

Fair enough if people don't have an interest but the sheer hatred for it is baffling.

There's no hatred of the language. Hatred of the money wasted on it but that isn't the same thing.

anncoates wrote: »

Fair enough, it's taught in the wrong way; there is an element of 'benign coercion' in that way that it's forced upon people for some jobs or qualifications and it has an unfortunate vague association with nationalist or religious elements or whatever but it's a little sad that so many people seem to despise their own native language because you can''t speak it abroad or it's not much use on a Deloitte or IBM application

There shouldn't be any "benign coercion" the government has no right to force any language onto me or anyone else, especially not for a nationalistic reason. Like it or not money makes this world go around and we have to do everything we can to maximise our competitiveness. Irish language teaching is a liability and should be recognised as such. Make it optional for those who want to do it sure, but don't hurt those who would rather study for their career.

anncoates

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

IMake it optional for those who want to do it sure, but don't hurt those who would rather study for their career.

It's bleating, CV-merchant, automatons like you I exactly had in mind.

Boombastic

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's not the native language of the country.

There's no hatred of the language. Hatred of the money wasted on it but that isn't the same thing.

.......................

And the time, Most people I know spent 13/14 years learning it and still only have a very basic grasp of it.

Boombastic

anncoates wrote: »

I was born in England and it always makes me sad that so many people here are so dismissive of the native language of their country...

How's your Angloromani/ Anglo-Romani?

It's native to Engalnd

P_1

Simple solution would be to teach spoken and written Irish at a compulsory level up to the Junior Cert and make Irish literature an optional subject for Leaving Cert

Iwasfrozen

anncoates wrote: »

It's bleating, CV-merchant, automatons like you I exactly had in mind.

You say it like it's a bad thing. Competition strives you to work harder, if everyone works harder the countries output grows.

Iwasfrozen

Boombastic wrote: »

And the time, Most people I know spent 13/14 years learning it and still only have a very basic grasp of it.

Exactly, time is money and we've wasted a fortune on this crap.

hfallada

Has everyone forgotten Irish is our first and official language and therefore it's constitutional that everything must be irish and then English. Irish most be the demoniate on signs and publications.

I think Irish should be available in school if people want it. But in poland they teach English along side German. Therefore many poles emigrate to Germany. If German was taught and not french( it's kinda useless every African colony learns it and a lot of Europe plus the French economy isn't great).

I think the most ridiculous thing was the fact that they wanted Irish on the Dublin bus signs. Why??? English is spoken by like 99% of dubliners

taytothief

That's cool, you get up and have your English cereal, drive to work in your Japanese or German car, work for your American or English employers, pick up your English food in your English supermarket on the way home, and watch recycled American programmes or maybe some American films for the evening. You're Irish though, right?

opinion guy

Wibbs wrote: »

Ehhh I dunno where to start with this. Just take Europe. Basque is significantly older than all of those you list. Lithuanian would be older too. Albanian another. I'd throw in Samish as well. Latin and (ancient)Greek are dead languages, so if you're throwing them into the fray Irish is a new kid on the block by comparison. The original pre Celtic language(s) of Ireland would be far older for a start. Irish would have some sort of a claim to be the oldest written language after Greek and Latin alright, but the Irish language you speak today isn't nearly as complex as Old Irish and is about as different to modern Irish as Italian is to Latin. BTW it's not even within spitting distance of the worlds oldest language.

+1

Hebrew is feckin super ancient also - way older than Irish (and Latin for that matter.)
Hmmm....Hindi maybe ??? I'm sure there are a bunch of Indian languages that are super old

The other poster clearer just made up their claim