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Have you ever experienced hibernophobia?

Bertie Woot

Hibernophobia aka anti-Irish sentiment may refer to or include persecution, discrimination, hatred or fear of the Irish as an ethnic or national group, whether directed against Ireland in general, or against Irish immigrants and their descendants in the Irish diaspora. In the past the Irish have been unfairly negatively stereotyped, and whilst some Irish people have viewed "Paddy Irishman" jokes and other stereotyping as harmless banter, others object, viewing it as a form of racism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibernophobe

The English have been the most obvious hibernophobes closest to home, and anti-Irish racism is as old as the 12th century, and is not the result of IRA terrorism, says a recent study. Please take the time to read this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ir...s-1342976.html

This thread is not intended to stoke up anti-English feeling aka anglophobia, which is as equally objectionable to hibernophobia, it is to ask Irish people if you have ever experienced, or felt that you have experienced prejudice, discrimination and negative stereotyping because of your nationality, and if so, how did you respond to it?

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Chuck Stone

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Zig and Zag are from Zog :rolleyes:

Ah yeah but they're naturalised Oirish now.

Miss Lockhart

I have experienced it in New Zealand twice, around a dozen times in Northern Ireland and repeatedly from a college classmate from Northern Ireland.

Overall though it's not something I would worry about or give much thought to.

crockholm

Shenshen wrote: »

Highly.

I've lived here 10 years now, and I've only recently started to be able to actually hear a difference between an Irish accent and, say, Welsh or Scottish.
The best I can do when hearing any English speaker most of the time is hazard a guess which continent they hail from. And even there I'm wrong more often then right.

Put it this way, if you hear someone speaking French, could you tell immediately if they're from Normandy, Corsica, Switzerland or Canada?

I'm in Sweden 2 years and I can easily differentiate between someone from skåne, göteborg,norrland and lidingö(stockholm sub-dialect), have been able to in the past differentiate Austrian from German, and don't get me started on qubecoise,even though its little more than a pattois. In closing,I would say that you just don't have a good ear for these things

Shenshen

crockholm wrote: »

I'm in Sweden 2 years and I can easily differentiate between someone from skåne, göteborg,norrland and lidingö(stockholm sub-dialect), have been able to in the past differentiate Austrian from German, and don't get me started on qubecoise,even though its little more than a pattois. In closing,I would say that you just don't have a good ear for these things

Oh, I can tell Quebecois from France French, and Argentinian from Catalan.
It's just that the differences between English accents are far less pronounced for the most part.
And the closer they're together geographically, the more they sound alike.

Pilotdude5

Not exactly hibernophobia, but I was once flying with a ex-paratrooper who served with the 101st in Vietnam. He told me he would never ever go to Ireland as he's had enough shooting and bombs in his lifetime.
He wasn't joking either.

Cee-Jay-Cee

It's Saturday, my brain doesn't work on Saturday. Ask me on Tuesday or Wednesday.

GRMA

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I have experienced it in New Zealand twice, around a dozen times in Northern Ireland and repeatedly from a college classmate from Northern Ireland.

Overall though it's not something I would worry about or give much thought to.

Thats funny cause he/she is Irish too

In the north rather than hibernaphobia I'd call it sectarianism, at least thats what I call the abuse I got (which is very very little... some Irish people think the north is a hive of hatred but tbh abuse is rare enough in "normal" areas)

theholyghost

Shenshen wrote: »

And the closer they're together geographically, the more they sound alike.

I speak the most basic German and only spent 2 mnths there 5 years ago and I can plainly tell a Bavarian accent from a northern one.

Lapin

gallag wrote: »

I really cant understand UK and irish people being racist to each other, same people really, obviously us British are smarter, better looking, make better lovers and dont have as many gingers but we are basically the same!

:P ~

crockholm

Shenshen wrote: »

Oh, I can tell Quebecois from France French, and Argentinian from Catalan.
It's just that the differences between English accents are far less pronounced for the most part.
And the closer they're together geographically, the more they sound alike.

Maybe it's our hubris, but I really thought we sound so different:( that said, I dont think I could recognize any of the Welsh or Scottish regional dialects.
How are you with the different dialects within the German-speaking world?

AngeGal

Shenshen wrote: »

Highly.

I've lived here 10 years now, and I've only recently started to be able to actually hear a difference between an Irish accent and, say, Welsh or Scottish.
The best I can do when hearing any English speaker most of the time is hazard a guess which continent they hail from. And even there I'm wrong more often then right.

Put it this way, if you hear someone speaking French, could you tell immediately if they're from Normandy, Corsica, Switzerland or Canada?

Of course the poster you referenced said it was at Euro 2008 so quite likely Irish jerseys were being worn, even if we hadn't qualified, which is probably what they were recognised by.

Bertie Woot

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I have experienced it in New Zealand twice, around a dozen times in Northern Ireland and repeatedly from a college classmate from Northern Ireland.

Overall though it's not something I would worry about or give much thought to.

Probably the best attitude. If it bothers you, and you let it be known that it bothers you, it only encourages them.

Lucy and Harry

Some Red Heads are nice

Shenshen

crockholm wrote: »

Maybe it's our hubris, but I really thought we sound so different:( that said, I dont think I could recognize any of the Welsh or Scottish regional dialects.
How are you with the different dialects within the German-speaking world?

I tend to be quite good with those. I'm half-Austrian, half-German so I grew up with both Niederoesterreichisch and Fraenkisch dialect.
I'd hear differences in accents in the Southern German/Austrian area quite distinctly.

Northern German tends to be very different to those, and is in areas closer related to English than German. With those, I'd be able to place them in the North, but I couldn't tell you if they're from Ostfriesland or Mecklenburg (a distance of roughly 400km).

Seaneh

Shenshen wrote: »

and Argentinian from Catalan

Well seeing as in Argentina they speak Spanish (and pretty much Castillian with a few differences, Argentina and Uruguay speak very different Spanish to the Andean countries and the rest of South America) and Catalan is an entirely different language and not very similar to Spanish at all, I should hope so :P.

looksee

We are not the same. The English came from a different island, colonised Ireland, then negatively stereotyped the entire Irish people as "stupid", "alcoholics", "lazy" and most recently, "terrorists" to justify 800 years of British colonial oppression, tyranny and genocide. The Irish have never done that to England or indeed any other nation, and now that England the coloniser has become the colonised, they can no longer hold onto their outdated and redundant superiority complex.

Ah petal, you'll give yourself ulcers doing all that hating on behalf of the rest of the population. Just chill a bit.

crockholm

Shenshen wrote: »

I tend to be quite good with those. I'm half-Austrian, half-German so I grew up with both Niederoesterreichisch and Fraenkisch dialect.
I'd hear differences in accents in the Southern German/Austrian area quite distinctly.

Northern German tends to be very different to those, and is in areas closer related to English than German. With those, I'd be able to place them in the North, but I couldn't tell you if they're from Ostfriesland or Mecklenburg (a distance of roughly 400km).

thats true,I recently worked with ein gelbfusser,from around konstanz,and his friend from munich, after a while you pick up on the traits. Whereas I also worked with a Frieslander and a meck-pommer, they sounded quite similar,but I believe both spent a lot of time in Berlin.

Wibbs

Shenshen wrote: »

Put it this way, if you hear someone speaking French, could you tell immediately if they're from Normandy, Corsica, Switzerland or Canada?

Agreed. It's not easy. I've been accused of being Canadian(by Americans wut? I was all "eh ye sound very similar except for words like out"), English(again by Americans, French, German, a New Zelander and oddly by a highland Scots chap

). No way do I sound either English or Canadian. I most certainly don't have either received pronunciation nor a mid Atlantic drawl common in some quarters here. I think some outsiders think "Irish" and assume "begorrah, top of the morning".

Bertie Woot wrote: »

We are not the same. The English came from a different island, colonised Ireland, then negatively stereotyped the entire Irish people as "stupid", "alcoholics", "lazy" and most recently, "terrorists" to justify 800 years of British colonial oppression, tyranny and genocide.

Well hang on there a minute. Genetically we are very closely related to the English and Scots and Welsh. The English contrary to popular belief(of outsiders and themselves) aren't Anglo Saxons. I dunno if you caught the recent TV programme where Eddie Izzard traced his genetic heritage? It turns out that his stock had a very rare variant among the English that actually was Anglo Saxon. It stood out because it was so rare. You have to go to places like east Anglia(handily named) to find much Saxon stock and even there it's tiny, present in under 2% of the population. Only on the male lines too. As far as researchers have found, no Saxon female lines remain. So English = Anglo Saxon is wrong. Hate to break it to some, but we're not "Celts" either. The Celtic populations of central Europe have no markers here, outside of us all being European(oh and we're not Spanish/Basques either and even Basques genetics though unique in some places aren't that ancient either). Historically and genetically the peoples of these islands have been going too and fro and mixing since the ice retreated 12,000 years ago. They even found a Roman era Irish blokes gravemarker complete with Ogham inscription from a Roman town in southern England. In essence telling a "pure" Irishman and a "pure" Englishman(or Scots or Welsh) is pretty difficult. We're more alike to each other than the vast majoriy of us would be to mainland Europeans.

The Irish have never done that to England or indeed any other nation,

Oh really? The Irish had Kingdoms in both Scotland and Wales. There are remains of Irish crannogs on Welsh lakes and ever wonder why Scots Gaelic is pretty much the Irish language? Where did the Pictish languages of that region go? Hell even Bede one f the first chroniclers of what would become "England" mentioned the Irish language as one of the tongues spoken.

As for the Irish "never done(sic) to any other nation", we were part of a larger empire for long enough and were the arms and weapons of same for long enough too. Never mind "the Brits", the US 7th cavalry had a large proportion of Irish men serving and ask a native American how friendly they were...

in the kingdom and now that England the coloniser has become the colonised, they can no longer hold onto their outdated and redundant superiority complex.

Better off historically blaming the Norman French. They were the colonisers of both here and the UK, not the English. Indeed they acted more shítty towards the English in the early days. It was near three centuries before an "English" king could speak English like a native.

As for gingervitis, as well as infecting large swathes of Scotland and Ireland, it has also infected many parts of England. Queen Elizabeth II and her entire extended royal family are all gingers. Most have their hair dyed regularly, with Prince Harry being the only member of the Windsor household to not care.

Conspiracy theory forum that away ==> Though there you may be told they're also lizards so... In any event the red hair gene is to be found in England too. It was more common in the past. Among their royalty there were a number of gingers. Henry the eighth was a ginge as was his daughter Lizzy the first. Both were quite proud of their hair colour too. Then again they were of Welsh stock so... Actually precious few of the English royalty have been native "English". Some were Saxon, but the Normans sorted that one, then the Dutch lot, followed by the mid European royal families chimed in(most recently German). So if the current lot are all gingers the gene is French, Scandinavian, Dutch(was king billy a ginge? I seem to recall he may have been) or German.

"No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish" and "No Irish Need Apply" (NINA signs) were a common sight in the windows of bed and breakfasts in London in the 1960's, a time long before political correctness.

That's true enough. It got worse with the Troubles, though you can see at least some reasoning there, however daft.

Anti-Irish discrimination was rife in England at that time, and you'll still encounter it today, only in a much subtler form.

I've never really come across it myself. Perhaps I've been lucky. I think it''s maybe because the vast majority of my dealings with English people have been outside the less educated underclass, though I have always been surprised how little even educated English people know about Ireland or Irish history. Most seemed eager to learn more too. They can even be a bit blank on their own. Their history seems to be dominated by the chinless wonders of their aristocracy, the history of the common man really takes a back seat. I suppose it was a way of keeping them down. Socialist English types seem to know way more on that score. I've been shocked how few Brits know about things like the Scottish land clearances. It was a government led act of genocide by movement of huge numbers of ordinary people from their lands for the sake of big landowners. While there can at least be debate over the conduct of the English ruling classes regarding our Irish Famine, there is little or no debate about the clearances and you very very rarely hear it even being mentioned in their media. As if it never happened.

I know a couple of Northern Irish lads that have had crap mind you, so maybe my southern accent makes the difference? I remember years ago a survey done by the BBC Radio Times IIRC that polled the attractiveness of various accents and the accent that won was a soft southern Irish accent, but the one considered least attractive(along with South African) was a harsh Northern accent. I'd suspect the Terry Wogan and Ian Paisley effect respectively going on there.

I have however had some BS from Scottish types. Not much, but way more than with English.

Many English people also oppose Northern Ireland's place within the UK, as NI benefits slightly more under the Barnett Formula, and some English people resent that despite the NI economy suffering a lot more due to 30 years of political violence. During my time on a UK forum I learned that most English people (certainly on that forum) are in favour of Irish unification, as they view N.Ireland as "a nuisance state", a "waste of British tax-payer's money" and "a liability" They do not appreciate Ulster's 'loyalty'.

Ohh I've heard that one myself, more than once and some even dislike the Unionist side more than the Nationalist. They consider the former more "ranty".

LincolnsBeard wrote: »

I hear there is growing anti-Irish sentiment in Australia because of the way a lot of Irish lads behave out there.

I've heard that one alright. I've also heard of a similar sentiment in some paces like tourist areas of Spain, where we can be lumped in with the British and Germans as being "louts".

Bertie Woot

Wibbs wrote: »

Well hang on there a minute. Genetically we are very closely related to the English and Scots and Welsh. The English contrary to popular belief(of outsiders and themselves) aren't Anglo Saxons. I dunno if you caught the recent TV programme where Eddie Izzard traced his genetic heritage? It turns out that his stock had a very rare variant among the English that actually was Anglo Saxon. It stood out because it was so rare. You have to go to places like east Anglia(handily named) to find much Saxon stock and even there it's tiny, present in under 2% of the population. Only on the male lines too. As far as researchers have found, no Saxon female lines remain. So English = Anglo Saxon is wrong. Hate to break it to some, but we're not "Celts" either. The Celtic populations of central Europe have no markers here, outside of us all being European(oh and we're not Spanish/Basques either and even Basques genetics though unique in some places aren't that ancient either). Historically and genetically the peoples of these islands have been going too and fro and mixing since the ice retreated 12,000 years ago. They even found a Roman era Irish blokes gravemarker complete with Ogham inscription from a Roman town in southern England. In essence telling a "pure" Irishman and a "pure" Englishman(or Scots or Welsh) is pretty difficult. We're more alike to each other than the vast majoriy of us would be to mainland Europeans.

It's true that there is less genetic variation in the Pretanic isles than elsewhere in Europe. A study conducted by Trinity College showed that there has been little genetic variation in Ireland since its first inhabitants arrived. An ancient genetic marker, known as "haplogroup 1" is shown to be present in 98.3% of men in Western Ireland. Although Ireland has been subjected to successive invasions by Celts, Gaels, Norse Vikings and Anglo-Normans, this marker has remained relatively undiluted.

The first known settlers in Ireland came form Scotland, and it was the Irish (returning Scots) who in turn settled Scotland. Many of those who belonged to indigenous Irish tribes such as the Ulaid and Cruithne in Ulidia (ancient Ulster) fled Gaelic colonisation and dominance, resettling in Scotland among the Pictish peoples, who were said to be a sister tribe of the Cruthin.

Saint Patrick himself was Scottish and captured by Irish raiders and brought to Ireland as a slave, escaping and returning to Britain before coming back to Ireland as a missionary.

Oh really? The Irish had Kingdoms in both Scotland and Wales. There are remains of Irish crannogs on Welsh lakes and ever wonder why Scots Gaelic is pretty much the Irish language? Where did the Pictish languages of that region go? Hell even Bede one f the first chroniclers of what would become "England" mentioned the Irish language as one of the tongues spoken.

Fair enough, but it is historical fact that the Anglo-Norman invitation to Ireland by one King Dermot MacMurrough, and the subsequent English invasion has had much more impact on Ireland than any Irish excursions to Britain. The English attempted to wipe out the Gaelic language and supplant it with English. It's only been in recent years that we've witnessed a revival of the Gaelic language, and it's important to note that Gaelic is as much a language of a foreign invader as is English.

As for the Irish "never done(sic) to any other nation", we were part of a larger empire for long enough and were the arms and weapons of same for long enough too. Never mind "the Brits", the US 7th cavalry had a large proportion of Irish men serving and ask a native American how friendly they were... Better off historically blaming the Norman French. They were the colonisers of both here and the UK, not the English. Indeed they acted more shítty towards the English in the early days. It was near three centuries before an "English" king could speak English like a native.

If all else fails, blame it on the cheese-eating surrender monkeys! It's true the Irish, Ulster-Scots Irish in particular, played a huge role in the American war of independence, providing the US with no less than 20 of its presidents. Even Obama can trace his lineage back to Ireland.

Conspiracy theory forum that away ==> Though there you may be told they're also lizards so... In any event the red hair gene is to be found in England too. It was more common in the past. Among their royalty there were a number of gingers. Henry the eighth was a ginge as was his daughter Lizzy the first. Both were quite proud of their hair colour too. Then again they were of Welsh stock so... Actually precious few of the English royalty have been native "English". Some were Saxon, but the Normans sorted that one, then the Dutch lot, followed by the mid European royal families chimed in(most recently German). So if the current lot are all gingers the gene is French, Scandinavian, Dutch(was king billy a ginge? I seem to recall he may have been) or German.

King William III has been accused of many things (eg. gay), but I donlt think a being a ginge was one of them. As regards the British Royals all being ginges, that was just a joke.

I've never really come across it myself. Perhaps I've been lucky. I think it''s maybe because the vast majority of my dealings with English people have been outside the less educated underclass, though I have always been surprised how little even educated English people know about Ireland or Irish history. Most seemed eager to learn more too. They can even be a bit blank on their own. Their history seems to be dominated by the chinless wonders of their aristocracy, the history of the common man really takes a back seat. I suppose it was a way of keeping them down. Socialist English types seem to know way more on that score. I've been shocked how few Brits know about things like the Scottish land clearances. It was a government led act of genocide by movement of huge numbers of ordinary people from their lands for the sake of big landowners. While there can at least be debate over the conduct of the English ruling classes regarding our Irish Famine, there is little or no debate about the clearances and you very very rarely hear it even being mentioned in their media. As if it never happened.

I've discovered that the English are generally clueless on Irish history. You have a mixture of ignorance, apathy, and a classic shying away from anything remotely related to empire. They're particularly not comfortable in talking about that act of genocide known as "the great famine", and for obvious reasons.

I know a couple of Northern Irish lads that have had crap mind you, so maybe my southern accent makes the difference? I remember years ago a survey done by the BBC Radio Times IIRC that polled the attractiveness of various accents and the accent that won was a soft southern Irish accent, but the one considered least attractive(along with South African) was a harsh Northern accent. I'd suspect the Terry Wogan and Ian Paisley effect respectively going on there.

The southern Irish accent has been described as "music to the ears". The Northern Irish accent (Belfast in particular) can be likened to taking a hammer drill to one ear, and a distorted loudspeaker turned up to 11 to the other. Most people who want to get anywhere in life outside of Belfast know that they have to ameliorate, lose or soften their Belfast accent, and many have and succeeded. In some parts of working class East Belfast the accent can only be described as HARSH.

Ohh I've heard that one myself, more than once and some even dislike the Unionist side more than the Nationalist. They consider the former more "ranty".

The English view us all as Irish, and regardless of whether you are Northern Irish, Unionist and Protestant, or Southern Irish, Nationalist and Catholic; but they probably do have more dislike of Unionists, and for being a bit too loud at times.

charlemont

shar01 wrote: »

About ten years ago on hols in the Canary Islands, I was in a group of six sitting outside a restaurant. At the next table was an English family (I'm guessing three generations). Anyway waiter drops a glass (it shattered loudly) and the grandmother of the English family said "Oh my gawd, I thought it was a facking bomb" and looked at our table.

We didn't respond - she was looking for a fight so why should we spoil our holiday and give her one!

Does this count?

You should have asked her what city she was from and then proceeded to tell her that you could arrange a bombing there no problem.

I got to talking to some elderly woman at Baker Street tube station and they asked me about Bangor and when I replied that I was from Tipperary they actually shuddered and said "Oh, That's in the south" and walked off.

WoollyRedHat

circadian wrote: »

I'm a phobiaphobiac.

I'm a Phoebephobiac.

shar01

charlemont wrote: »

You should have asked her what city she was from and then proceeded to tell her that you could arrange a bombing there no problem.

Nah... should've told her we normally give warnings! Suicide bomber? Not us - shure what would we do with all dem virgins?:D

shar01

Shenshen wrote: »

Had to laugh at the idea of a German recognising Irish people by their accent...

Didn't give it much thought at the time, just thought it was a funny thing to ask a stranger. None of us were wearing Ireland jerseys - normally de riguer to show that I'm not English

. Maybe he'd spent time in Ireland / around Irish.

Of course now I'd hand him an IOU for €94bn

Mr_Spaceman

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

I heard at a Celtic match go home the famine is over.Rangers supporters sang that.Although it was almost funny looking back as it did show some humour but they were vicious in the way they sang it.Not friendly banter..

Rangers supporters in dislike of Celtic shocker!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Indo stirring up ****e as usual.

The amount of "Hibernophobia" ia amsssively outweighed by Anglophobia over here.

And isn't a phobia suppose to be a fear, anyway?

woodoo

Bertie Woot wrote: »

It's only been in recent years that we've witnessed a revival of the Gaelic language, and it's important to note that Gaelic is as much a language of a foreign invader as is English.

How is that?

On the subject, i haven't really experienced much anti irish feeling. I had a New Zealand guy be a bit of a prick to me and it was only after that it dawned on me it may have been because i was irish. Certainly never experienced anything venomous anywhere.

Bertie Woot

=woodoo;83474509]How is that?

Because the Gaels came to Ireland from mainland Europe approximately 500 BC and are not the original people of Ireland. The Gaelic language is not Ireland's original language, it is the language that was imposed upon the indigenous Irish tribes by the colonial Gaels. Centuries later the English did the same thing.

GRMA

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Indo stirring up ****e as usual.

The amount of "Hibernophobia" ia amsssively outweighed by Anglophobia over here.

And isn't a phobia suppose to be a fear, anyway?

look at the date on the piece. The book is very good btw

Huckster

The first time I went to the UK was when I won a competition with a media agency. There were a few other people there who won other categories, but they were all British. In the Q&A session with the head of the media agency, he spent pretty much the whole time berating the Irish as being corrupt, lazy, useless bastards basically. Keeping in mind I was 16 at the time and this was a middle aged man. Not only was it very awkward, it was just so incredibly inappropriate. I was a bit wary of the British since then, but went to London a few weeks ago and they couldn't have been nicer. I guess there will always be ignorant people out there.

Humans eh!

I lived in England in the eighties in the midst of the IRA 'activities'.
I went out with an indian girl and we were known as 'The Paddy & The Paki' by our English friends.It was all good natured and never nasty.

The only racism I encountered was from blacks and asians for going out with an asian girl.
It was really bad, our house was attacked with stoneswe got physical and verbal abuse and our dog was badly attacked. The police were involved countless times, my girlfriend used to get spat upon on the street. Not just because I was white, apparrently it was worse being Irish.
Among asians, to describe something as being Irish denoted it as being coarse and implied it was dirty.

I will point out that in all my years living there, not once did I experience racism from a white English person and with the IRA waging their campaign of violence at the time there were many occasions that I was ashamed to be Irish.