flazio wrote: » It won't all be for Ireland apparently. Foynes according to the report is a really deep dock capable of ships that other countries further into Europe can't take so I reckon the idea would be to dock in Foynes, transport the cargo by road and rail to Rosslare and Dublin and let smaller ships continue on onto the continent.
corktina wrote: » Yep, I knew someone would say that. :rolleyes: If thats what the Foynes people are thinking will happen, then this project is doomed to fail. The Economics of that are clearly MAD.
flyingsnail wrote: » They only thing that may work would be if those larger vessels were to use Foynes to drop off their Ireland bound cargo en-route to Europe.
cgcsb wrote: » Out of curiosity how's that?
corktina wrote: » but would that amount justify the massive investment outlined? And would the massive ships that improvements to the Panama Canal implies really divert to a port half way up the west of Ireland to drop off just a few containers?
It won't all be for Ireland apparently. Foynes according to the report is a really deep dock capable of ships that other countries further into Europe can't take so I reckon the idea would be to dock in Foynes, transport the cargo by road and rail to Rosslare and Dublin and let smaller ships continue on onto the continent.
ardmacha wrote: » I think people have the wrong end of the stick here. Goods bound for Ireland or perhaps UK will unload at Foynes. Goods bound for other European locations would probably be transshipped (literally) on to smaller vessels. So smaller vessels might go to Mediterranean destinations or Baltic destinations, say Italy or Sweden. This might well be as economic as unloading at Rotterdam and sending by land over the Alps. This kind of thing happens at Singapore, which is an island.
Irish Steve wrote: » And no one has mentioned the implications of the long term reduction in the availability of cheap oil to run these massive ships. If the choice is to use expensive oil, or cheaper electricity from other (renewable) sources, then that will be a factor, and LONG TERM, as has been suggested by me and others, the Shannon Estuary area could become a hub for both freight and passengers IF the LONG TERM investment in high speed rail links to Europe (and beyond) were put in place. I could spend a lot longer going into the specific details of this, but I am only going to put one more thought here. GLOSSARY LONG TERM. A period of time significantly in excess of the life of one government, and definitely outside of the normal thinking of most politicians, and significantly above the re-election threshold of all of the politicians Ireland has to start working and thinking LONG TERM in terms of the position and influence that Ireland wants to have among the near neighbours of the EU, and the United States, let alone the rest of the world. If China thinks a long distance rail link to Europe is essential to their long term growth, then maybe we should be asking if something similar may well not be needed here in Western Europe to deal with trade from the US, and other places. Just because Ireland is a small island on the periphery of Europe, that does not mean that Ireland cannot have a significant and relevant role for much more of Europe than it has formely had. The Shannon Estuary area, which includes the Shannon Airport area, can offer a huge potential as a major hub for the time when oil is no longer as freely available as it is now. That would be for both cargo and passengers. Some of the things needed behind this concept will require some radically different thinking about "economics", cost benefit justification, return on investment, and all the other bean counter phrases that have been used for years to kill projects. Ireland has to have a good reason for Europe and the USA to invest here, and that has to go beyond cheap(er) labour than in other places. We HAVE to be able to offer services that either add value, or provide a service that has advantages in the LONG TERM for all of Europe. That means looking beyond parish pump level politics, and the next election, or three, and making decisions that really ARE in the interest of the PEOPLE of Ireland, not just the politicians and developers, which is all we saw for the last 10 years. The investment required to make a project of this scale work is indeed massive, but if properly planned, prepared, managed and implemented, it could well provide the lift that is required to get the economy moving again. That alone has to be a good reason to consider a project of this nature, something of this magnitude is required to get the country moving again.
Markcheese wrote: » Those huge container ships use less fuel per container than previous ships,(if running fully loaded), tend to be slower too as this uses less fuel, Can't see these vast point to point ships running Ireland to the far east , especially as many continental and British ports are already upgrading to cope with post Panamax vessels
corktina wrote: » a vacuum powered trans-atlantic tunnel? /QUOTE] It might help if you read what I posted. The trans atlantic tunnel would not be vacuum POWERED, it would run in vacuum, in order to acheive the very high speeds necessary to make it viable. The power would be electric Maglev, contactless magnetic levitation, already operating in a number of places, the new aspect is the absence of air outside the transport vehicle, in order to reduce the friction losses generated otherwise by the speeds. That's the futuristic aspect of this proposal. How do you propose to capture wave energy on a ship that's being moved by wave energy that's opposing the energy being output by the engines. The vast majority of nuclear ships are either military, or government operated or controlled. The chances of many civilian powered ships is not high, given the restrictions that are relevant to nuclear non proliferation. So, regardless of the size of the ship, how do you propose to operate it if oil is not available, or is incredibly expensive to purchase? I'm not overly bothered that Milford Haven, or Rotterdam, or other ports are upgrading to handle larger ships. A new purpose designed custom made facility will always be cheaper, more efficient and more effective than an upgrade of an old existing facility, the upgrade will always result in some compromises due to the location. Shannon Estuary would not be a port for Ireland. It would be a port for Europe that happens to be located on the West coast of Ireland, with high speed rail links direct to Europe Yes, it depends on the change in availability of oil, and the resulting rise in price relative to other energy sources. Based on the way oil prices have changed over my lifetime, and the lack of discovery of new resources, we have to recognise that oil is finite, and burning it for energy is a poor use of the product, as a planet, we have to find better ways of producing energy for transportation. That may be space based solar panels, or new concepts of nuclear that come out of Cern, or better use of wind wave and tidal, or concepts of all of these, There are new concepts being introduced to charge electric buses using current loops in the ground while they are on the move, or standing at stops. Is it so hard for people to see than the shortest sea crossing will be the most economic, and using (comparatively by that time) cheaper rail for onward distribution will be a more acceptable long term plan. If oil is no longer cheaper than using alternatives, and as I mentioned yesterday, China sees their route to Europe as being via high speed rail, then maybe we should be looking a lot more aggressively at what opportunities would open up for Ireland in that changed environment. If the cheapest route to Europe from the USA is via the west coast of Ireland, for freight or passengers, then maybe we should be preparing for that time. It may not last for a long time, but there was a time when Shannon was fundamental to travelling across to the USA because the aircraft of the time could not get to the USA from anywhere else. The problem with Shannon was that for a long time, people would not recognise that times had moved on, and things like the Shannon stop over distorted the realities until the government were forced to remove it. If Shannon airport was being built today, if it could even be justified, it would be nothing like the size that it is, and would have nothing like the facilities that it does, it would be similar in size and facilities to Kerry, or Knock. That may not be too popular an opinion, but on the basis of traffic levels, that's the reality. So, having said that, Shannon airport is there, and can handle aircraft that are way larger than the area justifies. So, let's find ways of using what's there that are attractive to users across Europe. The Shannon Estuary could become the harbour of choice for freight in 20 to 30 years time if the right decisions are made, and the right europe wide facilities are put into place. That will be because trains will be the method of choice for short and medium haul passenger and freight, and air will be the choice for cross ocean passengers, and urgent freight, with ships being the choice for bulk freight. Things like flying freight from the USA to Europe to then send things back to the UK or Ireland will no longer happen, due to the costs. Make no mistake about it, unless there is a miracle in the next few years in energy production, things like a weekend flight to Spain with Ryanair will become a weekend train to Spain, the journey times will be longer, but not in the way they are now, train speeds will have increased to make them a viable alternative to air transport. Ireland can be a part of the new world, or can ignore the changes to come, and live on the periphery of it all, but the accident of geography could give Ireland an opportunity to be much more closely linked to Europe than it has ever been before, and the advantages from that would be very much in Ireland's long term interests, as it would reduce ireland's isolation. That should be good for everyone. That's why I've added to the Foynes thread. The vision needs to be much larger and longer term than it is right now, but at least there is a vision, rather than a head in the sand attitude that is only negative about the potential for Ireland in the long term. If Ireland wants to be, Ireland can be more than the agricultural supplier to Europe, we can also be a pivotal part of the new transport structure that will develop as the usage of oil changes.
rainbowdash wrote: » I have another idea, in fact I have 2. We should drill a hole through the earth from Ireland and out at china. We can drop containers through it. Then I got an even better idea, we can catapult them express mail through it and use spirit of Ireland turbines to wind up the catapults. No less feasible than some of the plans being mooted here.
Irish Steve wrote: » corktina wrote: » a vacuum powered trans-atlantic tunnel? /QUOTE] It might help if you read what I posted. The trans atlantic tunnel would not be vacuum POWERED, it would run in vacuum, in order to acheive the very high speeds necessary to make it viable. The power would be electric Maglev, contactless magnetic levitation, already operating in a number of places, the new aspect is the absence of air outside the transport vehicle, in order to reduce the friction losses generated otherwise by the speeds. That's the futuristic aspect of this proposal. How do you propose to capture wave energy on a ship that's being moved by wave energy that's opposing the energy being output by the engines. The vast majority of nuclear ships are either military, or government operated or controlled. The chances of many civilian powered ships is not high, given the restrictions that are relevant to nuclear non proliferation. So, regardless of the size of the ship, how do you propose to operate it if oil is not available, or is incredibly expensive to purchase? I'm not overly bothered that Milford Haven, or Rotterdam, or other ports are upgrading to handle larger ships. A new purpose designed custom made facility will always be cheaper, more efficient and more effective than an upgrade of an old existing facility, the upgrade will always result in some compromises due to the location. Shannon Estuary would not be a port for Ireland. It would be a port for Europe that happens to be located on the West coast of Ireland, with high speed rail links direct to Europe Yes, it depends on the change in availability of oil, and the resulting rise in price relative to other energy sources. Based on the way oil prices have changed over my lifetime, and the lack of discovery of new resources, we have to recognise that oil is finite, and burning it for energy is a poor use of the product, as a planet, we have to find better ways of producing energy for transportation. That may be space based solar panels, or new concepts of nuclear that come out of Cern, or better use of wind wave and tidal, or concepts of all of these, There are new concepts being introduced to charge electric buses using current loops in the ground while they are on the move, or standing at stops. Is it so hard for people to see than the shortest sea crossing will be the most economic, and using (comparatively by that time) cheaper rail for onward distribution will be a more acceptable long term plan. If oil is no longer cheaper than using alternatives, and as I mentioned yesterday, China sees their route to Europe as being via high speed rail, then maybe we should be looking a lot more aggressively at what opportunities would open up for Ireland in that changed environment. If the cheapest route to Europe from the USA is via the west coast of Ireland, for freight or passengers, then maybe we should be preparing for that time. It may not last for a long time, but there was a time when Shannon was fundamental to travelling across to the USA because the aircraft of the time could not get to the USA from anywhere else. The problem with Shannon was that for a long time, people would not recognise that times had moved on, and things like the Shannon stop over distorted the realities until the government were forced to remove it. If Shannon airport was being built today, if it could even be justified, it would be nothing like the size that it is, and would have nothing like the facilities that it does, it would be similar in size and facilities to Kerry, or Knock. That may not be too popular an opinion, but on the basis of traffic levels, that's the reality. So, having said that, Shannon airport is there, and can handle aircraft that are way larger than the area justifies. So, let's find ways of using what's there that are attractive to users across Europe. The Shannon Estuary could become the harbour of choice for freight in 20 to 30 years time if the right decisions are made, and the right europe wide facilities are put into place. That will be because trains will be the method of choice for short and medium haul passenger and freight, and air will be the choice for cross ocean passengers, and urgent freight, with ships being the choice for bulk freight. Things like flying freight from the USA to Europe to then send things back to the UK or Ireland will no longer happen, due to the costs. Make no mistake about it, unless there is a miracle in the next few years in energy production, things like a weekend flight to Spain with Ryanair will become a weekend train to Spain, the journey times will be longer, but not in the way they are now, train speeds will have increased to make them a viable alternative to air transport. Ireland can be a part of the new world, or can ignore the changes to come, and live on the periphery of it all, but the accident of geography could give Ireland an opportunity to be much more closely linked to Europe than it has ever been before, and the advantages from that would be very much in Ireland's long term interests, as it would reduce ireland's isolation. That should be good for everyone. That's why I've added to the Foynes thread. The vision needs to be much larger and longer term than it is right now, but at least there is a vision, rather than a head in the sand attitude that is only negative about the potential for Ireland in the long term. If Ireland wants to be, Ireland can be more than the agricultural supplier to Europe, we can also be a pivotal part of the new transport structure that will develop as the usage of oil changes. it's total pie in the sky Star Trek fantasy. If such technology exists at some stage why would it be routed via Ireland. ? It just doesn't make any sense to do that. We ALL know that!
corktina wrote: » it's total pie in the sky Star Trek fantasy. If such technology exists at some stage why would it be routed via Ireland. ? It just doesn't make any sense to do that. We ALL know that!
