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Limerick-Foynes Rail Line

OurLadyofKnock

I was talking to a local politician down this way this morning trying to get her to look into turning the WRC into a cycyling path. She is still completely deluded that trains will be running from "Cork to Derry in a few years". Anyways just as I was about to leave and have a deep insightful discussion concerning the political undercurrents contained within 1950's Italian neo-realist cinema with a cavity block lying on a piece of waste ground, she blurts out. "Sure the line to Foynes is about to be opened by a private rail company."

I looked on C&T board and something about Stobart paying for it. But there is nothing in terms of media or anything to confirm this.

Personally I would see IE dynamiting Boyne Viaduct before allowing a private operator on their nextwork. Even a closed line. They are so psychologically twisted and deranged I could not even imagine such a suggestion even being indulged by CIE/IE even if it was real.

Anyone got info on this?

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Tragedy

Perhaps one should look into the economics of container transport before talking about LONG TERM and rising oil costs.

Indeed, perhaps one should look into the efficiency improvements in newer container ships coming online in the next few years before talking about LONG TERM.

foggy_lad

Irish Steve wrote: »

And no one has mentioned the implications of the long term reduction in the availability of cheap oil to run these massive ships.

If the choice is to use expensive oil, or cheaper electricity from other (renewable) sources, then that will be a factor, and LONG TERM, as has been suggested by me and others, the Shannon Estuary area could become a hub for both freight and passengers IF the LONG TERM investment in high speed rail links to Europe (and beyond) were put in place.

I could spend a lot longer going into the specific details of this, but I am only going to put one more thought here.

GLOSSARY

LONG TERM. A period of time significantly in excess of the life of one government, and definitely outside of the normal thinking of most politicians, and significantly above the re-election threshold of all of the politicians

Ireland has to start working and thinking LONG TERM in terms of the position and influence that Ireland wants to have among the near neighbours of the EU, and the United States, let alone the rest of the world.

If China thinks a long distance rail link to Europe is essential to their long term growth, then maybe we should be asking if something similar may well not be needed here in Western Europe to deal with trade from the US, and other places.

Just because Ireland is a small island on the periphery of Europe, that does not mean that Ireland cannot have a significant and relevant role for much more of Europe than it has formely had. The Shannon Estuary area, which includes the Shannon Airport area, can offer a huge potential as a major hub for the time when oil is no longer as freely available as it is now. That would be for both cargo and passengers.

Some of the things needed behind this concept will require some radically different thinking about "economics", cost benefit justification, return on investment, and all the other bean counter phrases that have been used for years to kill projects.

Ireland has to have a good reason for Europe and the USA to invest here, and that has to go beyond cheap(er) labour than in other places. We HAVE to be able to offer services that either add value, or provide a service that has advantages in the LONG TERM for all of Europe.

That means looking beyond parish pump level politics, and the next election, or three, and making decisions that really ARE in the interest of the PEOPLE of Ireland, not just the politicians and developers, which is all we saw for the last 10 years.

The investment required to make a project of this scale work is indeed massive, but if properly planned, prepared, managed and implemented, it could well provide the lift that is required to get the economy moving again. That alone has to be a good reason to consider a project of this nature, something of this magnitude is required to get the country moving again.

so swap expensive oil used to power cheaper ships and instead use electric railways powered by electricity produced by even more expensive oil and gas and coal.

Irish Steve

And no one has mentioned the implications of the long term reduction in the availability of cheap oil to run these massive ships.

If the choice is to use expensive oil, or cheaper electricity from other (renewable) sources, then that will be a factor, and LONG TERM, as has been suggested by me and others, the Shannon Estuary area could become a hub for both freight and passengers IF the LONG TERM investment in high speed rail links to Europe (and beyond) were put in place.

I could spend a lot longer going into the specific details of this, but I am only going to put one more thought here.

GLOSSARY

LONG TERM. A period of time significantly in excess of the life of one government, and definitely outside of the normal thinking of most politicians, and significantly above the re-election threshold of all of the politicians

Ireland has to start working and thinking LONG TERM in terms of the position and influence that Ireland wants to have among the near neighbours of the EU, and the United States, let alone the rest of the world.

If China thinks a long distance rail link to Europe is essential to their long term growth, then maybe we should be asking if something similar may well not be needed here in Western Europe to deal with trade from the US, and other places.

Just because Ireland is a small island on the periphery of Europe, that does not mean that Ireland cannot have a significant and relevant role for much more of Europe than it has formely had. The Shannon Estuary area, which includes the Shannon Airport area, can offer a huge potential as a major hub for the time when oil is no longer as freely available as it is now. That would be for both cargo and passengers.

Some of the things needed behind this concept will require some radically different thinking about "economics", cost benefit justification, return on investment, and all the other bean counter phrases that have been used for years to kill projects.

Ireland has to have a good reason for Europe and the USA to invest here, and that has to go beyond cheap(er) labour than in other places. We HAVE to be able to offer services that either add value, or provide a service that has advantages in the LONG TERM for all of Europe.

That means looking beyond parish pump level politics, and the next election, or three, and making decisions that really ARE in the interest of the PEOPLE of Ireland, not just the politicians and developers, which is all we saw for the last 10 years.

The investment required to make a project of this scale work is indeed massive, but if properly planned, prepared, managed and implemented, it could well provide the lift that is required to get the economy moving again. That alone has to be a good reason to consider a project of this nature, something of this magnitude is required to get the country moving again.

Tragedy

Transport via ship is cheaper than individually by truck, so why would they dock in Foynes to transport all the goods to Dublin by truck?

That's incredibly silly.

flazio

I didn't post that as 'my idea of how it would work' I just posted my understanding of the report.
I know feck all about logistics.
The following and only the following is my opinion on the matter.
I think it makes sense to build a decent port away from major population dense areas. Look at Dublin port, they needed to bore a tunnel to the dock to stop trucks clogging up the City Centre,and that can't have been cheap to do.
In Foynes you wouldn't have such issues, population is low out there, plenty of green land to CPO and build whatever roads are needed to hook up to the M7 (my only concern with that at the minute would be the bog section of the motorway might not hold up well to an increase in heavy goods traffic.) Rail is already in place so all is needed is to modernise the lines and you're off to the east.

rainbowdash

ardmacha wrote: »

I think people have the wrong end of the stick here. Goods bound for Ireland or perhaps UK will unload at Foynes. Goods bound for other European locations would probably be transshipped (literally) on to smaller vessels. So smaller vessels might go to Mediterranean destinations or Baltic destinations, say Italy or Sweden. This might well be as economic as unloading at Rotterdam and sending by land over the Alps.
This kind of thing happens at Singapore, which is an island.

Ships to and from china already stop at Greece, Italy and Spain, so thats a dead duck.

Ships often transfer 4000 containers in one go in felixstowe, why would they unload them all in Foynes and load them back on again when could go direct in the first place?

Remember Foynes tried containers a few years ago and dropped it again pretty quick.

cgcsb

Aren't the Chinese govt planning a high speed rail between Beijing and Germany(ultimately to London) that'll carry heavy freight much faster than container ships, granted they probably have less capacity than ships but a single train could probably do about 20 trips back and forth in the time it takes one ship to go from China to Rotterdam.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2013/0211/1224329906186.html

corktina

ardmacha wrote: »

I think people have the wrong end of the stick here. Goods bound for Ireland or perhaps UK will unload at Foynes. Goods bound for other European locations would probably be transshipped (literally) on to smaller vessels. So smaller vessels might go to Mediterranean destinations or Baltic destinations, say Italy or Sweden. This might well be as economic as unloading at Rotterdam and sending by land over the Alps.
This kind of thing happens at Singapore, which is an island.

why would you need the rail line then? or the upgraded road?

ardmacha

It won't all be for Ireland apparently. Foynes according to the report is a really deep dock capable of ships that other countries further into Europe can't take so I reckon the idea would be to dock in Foynes, transport the cargo by road and rail to Rosslare and Dublin and let smaller ships continue on onto the continent.

I think people have the wrong end of the stick here. Goods bound for Ireland or perhaps UK will unload at Foynes. Goods bound for other European locations would probably be transshipped (literally) on to smaller vessels. So smaller vessels might go to Mediterranean destinations or Baltic destinations, say Italy or Sweden. This might well be as economic as unloading at Rotterdam and sending by land over the Alps.
This kind of thing happens at Singapore, which is an island.

flyingsnail

corktina wrote: »

but would that amount justify the massive investment outlined? And would the massive ships that improvements to the Panama Canal implies really divert to a port half way up the west of Ireland to drop off just a few containers?

That is why I said it may work. It would entirely depend on what level of traffic they could produce.

corktina

cgcsb wrote: »

Out of curiosity how's that?

Can you really not see why such plans are MAD?

OK short version....invest billions in expanding Foynes Port....invest millions improving rail and road to Rosslare and Dublin....pay to unload ship...pay to load train/truck/....haul to east coast port.....pay to unload train/truck....load on to ship.....sail to Wales...unload and load on to train or truck....haul to destination in UK/Europe....all extra costs over just sailing the first ship to the UK or European ports in the first place. QED

corktina

flyingsnail wrote: »

They only thing that may work would be if those larger vessels were to use Foynes to drop off their Ireland bound cargo en-route to Europe.

but would that amount justify the massive investment outlined? And would the massive ships that improvements to the Panama Canal implies really divert to a port half way up the west of Ireland to drop off just a few containers?

flyingsnail

They only thing that may work would be if those larger vessels were to use Foynes to drop off their Ireland bound cargo en-route to Europe.

cgcsb

corktina wrote: »

Yep, I knew someone would say that. :rolleyes:

If thats what the Foynes people are thinking will happen, then this project is doomed to fail. The Economics of that are clearly MAD.

Out of curiosity how's that?

corktina

yep, they can forget continental traffic, IF a deep water port was needed on the west Coast of Europe, Milford Haven could take whatever they could throw at it AND is rail linked. They've never done that so I imagine that's because it's a non-starter.

Stonewolf

You'd have to be able to run trains directly onto the continent through the UK, which is a great idea but firstly, there's a bit missing and secondly, our trains are the wrong size.

rainbowdash

flazio wrote: »

It won't all be for Ireland apparently. Foynes according to the report is a really deep dock capable of ships that other countries further into Europe can't take so I reckon the idea would be to dock in Foynes, transport the cargo by road and rail to Rosslare and Dublin and let smaller ships continue on onto the continent.

The biggest constraints are the panama and suez canals, anything that can fit through these can fit into Rotterdam, Le Harve, Felixstowe, Southampton, Hamburg etc. already.

Ship from China to Foynes, train to Rosslare, ship to France, train up to Rotterdam or Germany = Stupidest idea ever.

corktina

flazio wrote: »

It won't all be for Ireland apparently. Foynes according to the report is a really deep dock capable of ships that other countries further into Europe can't take so I reckon the idea would be to dock in Foynes, transport the cargo by road and rail to Rosslare and Dublin and let smaller ships continue on onto the continent.

Yep, I knew someone would say that. :rolleyes:

If thats what the Foynes people are thinking will happen, then this project is doomed to fail. The Economics of that are clearly MAD.

flazio

corktina wrote: »

i just can't see where all this container traffic could be going to/coming from.

Also 10 million tonnes of cargo? really?

It won't all be for Ireland apparently. Foynes according to the report is a really deep dock capable of ships that other countries further into Europe can't take so I reckon the idea would be to dock in Foynes, transport the cargo by road and rail to Rosslare and Dublin and let smaller ships continue on onto the continent.

corktina

i just can't see where all this container traffic could be going to/coming from.

Also 10 million tonnes of cargo? really?

Judgement Day

What's new in this? The same old guff has been spouted for years with no sign of any reopening. The Foynes line is more likely to become a Greenway than reopen.

Itsdacraic

Shannon Foynes Port Company has launched a 30-year plan to develop port facilities along the Shannon estuary.
The estuary is the deepest waterway in Ireland and one of the deepest in Europe.
Its natural deepwater gives it a distinct advantange over other ports in Ireland, as it can handle the huge container ships being developed with the expansion of the Panama Canal.
The port company facilitates €6 billion worth of international trade at its ports in a year, and over a third of the country's bulk container traffic now transits the estuary.
It handles 10 million tonnes of cargo and is growing at around 8% a year.
The plan charts the development of Foynes port and Limerick docks over the next 30 years.
The development will allow the company to take complete commercial advantage of the estuary's natural deepwater.
Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar today launched the plan, which is known as Vision 2041.
He said Shannon Foynes is an important asset for the southwest of Ireland and he welcomed the company's goal to attract significant international investment.
A new deep water berth will be built at Foynes and over 300 acres of extra land will be developed to build new warehousing and facilities.
In addition the Foynes-Limerick railway line could be reopened to facilitate new trade and the road infrastructure, in particular the N69, would need to be radically improved.
Future business at the estuary is also being governed by events at the Panama Canal, which is being expanded and will be accommodating supersize container vessels of 80,000 tonnes by 2015.
The natural deep waters of the estuary will be a distinct advantage in what is known as the post-pamamax era.
As a result the Shannon Foynes Port Company is to begin talks with IDA Ireland to attract more foreign direct investment and bring more employment to the entire Shannon estuary region.
Shannon Foynes Port Company Chairman Michael Collins said that while ambitious and challenging, the projected growth in the plan is more than achievable.
"With the unrivalled opportunity we have due to our deepwater and emergence of larger vessels, we have a unique opportunity here that we need to take advantage of. For these reasons, the estuary is one of the jewels in the nation's crown from an investment potential perspective," Mr Collins said.

Sponge Bob

Zinc mines are being explored all over Limerick. It will take 3-5 years minimum to commission any of them though.

pigtown

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think that you're being overly optimistic as this is the critical piece in the article 'could be re-opened if there was sufficient traffic to create a good business case to do so' - the classic get-out clause. Love to see it and a perhaps a heritage operation to Foynes but it won't happen.

This was the bit I was focusing on;

“active discussions with Foynes port management are ongoing, as it is currently believed there will be traffic to justify re-opening the route in the foreseeable future”.

Tinytony

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think that you're being overly optimistic as this is the critical piece in the article 'could be re-opened if there was sufficient traffic to create a good business case to do so' - the classic get-out clause. Love to see it and a perhaps a heritage operation to Foynes but it won't happen.

You'd imagine there might be some small potential for a heritage/history tourist thing on the line. Especially if Foynes started to attract more cruise liners, and with the track providing a link to Adare it might prove popular?

Only last month IE tried to remove the gates from the station at Askeaton and replace them with a fence so they mustn't have any serious notions of reopening it.

Judgement Day

I think that you're being overly optimistic as this is the critical piece in the article 'could be re-opened if there was sufficient traffic to create a good business case to do so' - the classic get-out clause. Love to see it and a perhaps a heritage operation to Foynes but it won't happen.

pigtown

Line may be reopened for freight traffic in the not too distant future.
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/irish-rail-ceo-indicates-that-foynes-rail-link-could-be-re-opened-1-4148299

Hungerford

flyingsnail wrote: »

For cement it think it was around may 09, for shale maybe September/October 09. There was a empty stock transfer on 24/06/2010.

My Goodness. Tricky Dicky's timescales are shortening as rail liberalisation appears on the horizon.

Poxyshamrock

Cheers Flyingsnail!

flyingsnail

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Does anyone know (roughly) the last time the Castlemungret section of the line was used?

For cement it think it was around may 09, for shale maybe September/October 09. There was a empty stock transfer on 24/06/2010.