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Child Item

Garda Donohues widow tells politicans incl shatter to stay away from their house

the culture of deference

THE family of Detective Garda Adrian Donohoe informed garda management that they did not want any politicians, including the Minister for Justice, at the home of the murdered officer.

THE family of Detective Garda Adrian Donohoe informed garda management that they did not want any politicians, including the Minister for Justice, at the home of the murdered officer, the Sunday Independent has learned.
The widow of the slain garda, Caroline Donohoe, who is herself a garda in Dundalk, is understood to have asked senior gardai to inform Mr Shatter that he would not be welcome.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shatter-told-to-stay-away-by-widow-of-slain-garda-3375761.html

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charlemont

tayto lover wrote: »

You should have complained to their boss and demanded action.

I'm going to see what happens, My ex is hesitant to complain but I'm not happy about it. I want her to go the Ombudsman about it. The children got great descriptions of those involved and their car and the responding Gardaí had little or no interest in it, Unless these burglars are informers as I can't understand why they were not even interested in the descriptions. Several houses in the area have cctv and the car was captured on a few of them. Alan Shatter can't be blamed for any of this. Closing station's too cannot be blamed for people who are just uninterested in their work.

tayto lover

charlemont wrote: »

I'm going to see what happens, My ex is hesitant to complain but I'm not happy about it. I want her to go the Ombudsman about it. The children got great descriptions of those involved and their car and the responding Gardaí had little or no interest in it, Unless these burglars are informers as I can't understand why they were not even interested in the descriptions. Several houses in the area have cctv and the car was captured on a few of them. Alan Shatter can't be blamed for any of this. Closing station's too cannot be blamed for people who are just uninterested in their work.

Yes. Low morale is no substitute or excuse for laziness.

BigEoghan

WileyCoyote wrote: »

With regard to the first part of your post Sean, how do you explain the fall in most catagories of crime in recent years? CSO stats (compiled using information provided by AGS and others) show most catagories of serious crime have recorded a drop)

Lower detection rates equals lower crime stats.
So, fewer gardai equals fewer crimes detected/investigated equals lower crime rates equals politicians saying, "Crime is down, what's the big deal?".
More gardai = more crimes detected = "higher crime rates" = "Crime is up!!!" pandemonium.

"There are three types of lies : Lies, damned lies and statistics."

BlatentCheek

digger58 wrote: »

Let's get real here! Any cutbacks in free legal aid!!!!!, no, instead cut the services that try and protect the decent people of this country, again all Judges were once solicitors, many benefited from free legal aid work in the past, any cut backs in FLA would effect the legal profession and we can't have that can we?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cost-of-free-legal-aid-scheme-falls-10-216545.html

Free legal aid rates have been cut massively in recent years. The rates payed to Barristers has been cut over 32% since 2008. It's difficult to imagine the Gardai continuing to do their job with similar cuts to their pay. Take five minutes to learn about something before spouting nonsense about it.

tayto lover

Also I think it's a bit rich and disingenuous of Shatter saying that he is closing the Garda stations on the advice of the Garda Commissioner.
The Garda Commissioner is a political appointee.
The Govt chose him and promoted him, he is their man bought and paid for.

This role of Garda Commissioner should be taken away from politics and he should be elected or chosen by an independent panel.

At the moment he is Shatter's lapdog and will say what he is told.

Milk & Honey

digger58 wrote: »

Let's get real here! Any cutbacks in free legal aid!!!!!, no, instead cut the services that try and protect the decent people of this country, again all Judges were once solicitors, many benefited from free legal aid work in the past, any cut backs in FLA would effect the legal profession and we can't have that can we?

Free legal aid has been cut back quite a lot. Not all judges were once solicitors. Very few solicitors benefit from legal aid.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/si/0015.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/si/0074.htm

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/si/0136.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0362.html

flutered

quietsailor wrote: »

What do you mean by this? Did the Minister for justice turn down an offer of help from BMW?

yes, i have read anout it on another site, it seems that the bmw crowd wanted to get their toe in the door, now we couldent have that, now could we.

Biggins

tayto lover wrote: »

Also I think it's a bit rich and disingenuous of Shatter saying that he is closing the Garda stations on the advice of the Garda Commissioner.
The Garda Commissioner is a political appointee.
The Govt chose him and promoted him, he is their man bought and paid for.

This role of Garda Commissioner should be taken away from politics and he should be elected or chosen by an independent panel.

At the moment he is Shatter's lapdog and will say what he is told.

You and I know the use of the "Garda Commissioner" position is a sort of supposed firewall to fight against political criticism.

Like it or not - if Shatter is doing right or wrong, the buck stops with him as regard to proceed with closures or not.
He authorises by signature on a dotted line, the closures?
Passing the buck down the line is typical political bullschite behaviour.

I suspect that one Garda Commissioner tonight is at home saying to himself "What the fcuk...!" and cannot speak out officially and be seen criticise his political master that is abusing a garda position for trying to slip off the hook of possible blame.

digger58

BlatentCheek wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cost-of-free-legal-aid-scheme-falls-10-216545.html

Free legal aid rates have been cut massively in recent years. The rates payed to Barristers has been cut over 32% since 2008. It's difficult to imagine the Gardai continuing to do their job with similar cuts to their pay. Take five minutes to learn about something before spouting nonsense about it.

I agree,the rates may have been cut but the process of endless adjournments and other ruses to prolong a case have not been cut, I can think of no better exponents of "spouting nonsense" than the legal profession themselves, in fact they have perfected the art! Does it only take 5 minutes to "Out" the legal profession! wake up and see what's happening

Chuck Stone

If we had 500,000 Gardai and and thousands of police stations it would still not stop someone determined enough if they wanted to murder a Garda.

If I lived in a remote area I'd get a gun.

ToxicPaddy

Just a thought, but maybe she didn't want some politician using the funeral of her husband as a photo op as most politicans seem to do these days..

Death and Taxes

BigEoghan wrote: »

Lower detection rates equals lower crime stats.
So, fewer gardai equals fewer crimes detected/investigated equals lower crime rates equals politicians saying, "Crime is down, what's the big deal?".
More gardai = more crimes detected = "higher crime rates" = "Crime is up!!!" pandemonium.

"There are three types of lies : Lies, damned lies and statistics."

Wrong! Crime rates are based the numbers of REPORTED crimes, the crime rate has nothing to do with detection rate! Duh!!!

BigEoghan

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Wrong! Crime rates are based the numbers of REPORTED crimes, the crime rate has nothing to do with detection rate! Duh!!!

Many thanks for your considered reply.

Crime rates are based on reported crimes AND detected crimes. Not all crimes are reported. For example almost all if not all drug crimes are detected and not reported.

Being new to boards I've just been reading some of the posts in the new members forum. One that caught my eye (particularly points 1. and 3.) was -

***READ THIS FIRST - Forum Charter (The Rules) - READ THIS FIRST***

Feel free to introduce yourself on the Introductions thread and remember the 3 golden rules:

Attack the post, never the poster. In other words, don't make it personal. If you wish to debate a topic or rebut a statement, insulting any boards.ie user will only get you in trouble. You are free to have a go a their argument. You are not free to have a go at them.
Don't use text speak. The use of txtspk is strictly forbidden in all forums on boards.
Don't be a dick. In other words, behave yourself. Treat other people with respect, be nice, friendly, rational, and most of all... have fun!

Just curious to know at what point do these rules cease to apply? Being a veteran of more than 2000 posts I'm sure you'll be able to tell me the answer to this one.

twowheelsonly

Deleted User wrote: »

Any chance you could mention a specific cut that's relevant to this case? Would there usually be a helicopter accompanying such transfers or something?

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

This shooting is nothing to do with cuts and I find it a bit distasteful that a mans death is being used for a political point.

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes. Low morale is no substitute or excuse for laziness.

But essentially all of this is indirectly related to low morale. The fact is that morale within the Gardai has been dropping lower and lower for years.
An ombudsman watching their every step, so much so that half of them are afraid to do anything. A complaint from the public or from a 'customer' will be investigated fully. Any sort of complaint from the Garda will most likely be met with a 'get over it' - ' that's what you get paid for' response.
Stations are closing down, numbers are being eroded.
They bring a guy to court and object strongly to Bail but the judge grants it anyway, thus undermining their intelligence/experience. They see the same crims time after time and are expected to keep chasing them time after time to get the same Mickey Mouse sentences time after time.

Top all that off then with the government now wanting more hours for less pay, talk of getting rid of premium payments and allowances on top of previous cuts and levies and it's not hard to understand why they're angry and their morale is so low. Yet people still expect the super duper efficient smiling happy policeman to turn up and solve every crime every time.

I'm willing to bet that the guys that committed this crime ALL have previous and I'd nearly go further and say that at least one of them was on bail for something. The Gardai know this too and this is what makes them so angry, particularly when we then have a fawning government giving the 'no stone left unturned' line.

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Free legal aid has been cut back quite a lot. Not all judges were once solicitors. Very few solicitors benefit from legal aid.

But those that do still benefit quite nicely - as do all of those that qualify/use their services.

kraggy

MagicSean wrote: »

It's not hard to understand. You cut resources and numbers you let criminality thrive. Criminals get greedy and brave. They get away with more and more. Suddenly what was once impossible (i.e. robbing a cash delivery guarded by armed Gardaí) is now not so impossible. What was once unheard of (i.e. executing a Garda) is now not so hard to contemplate. This isn't something that has happened overnight with the closure of Garda stations. This is something that has developed over a good few years. Lower Garda numbers, reduced overtime, less vehicles, wider policing areas. It all adds up to criminal paradise. You ignore the little stuff and the big stuff gets out of hand.

It's easy to say "smarter policing" is the way to go. How do you explain that to an 80 year old woman who has been attacked in her home and had to wait an hour for a Garda car?

I agree with pretty much everything you say. But in addition to policing, there are massive problems with the court system. It doesn't matter how many gardai there are, if criminals are getting bail and suspended sentences then they are going to commit offences again.

According to the reports about the gang who killed Adrian Donohoe, some of them had previous. And they're only young. What's the odds they got suspended sentences or very short sentences from our courts, or indeed the courts in the North.

Kinzig

charlemont wrote: »

My teenage son was confronted by burglars in his room and 5 weeks later still nothing done about it, No statements taken even, Forensics did turn up the next day. To be honest they were sloppy burglars.. They left a lot of evidence behind. But obviously not enough evidence for the Gardaí. Heaps of houses and a few pubs in the general area have been hit and the same car has been spotted at the scene of several of them, What more do they want ?

I don't blame the minister for this, The Gardaí were even at the house within a half hour of being called but its no exaggeration to say that the two of them didn't give a damn. They didn't even take a note of the description of the burglars. :mad:

Does not surprise me , I had my car stolen and burned just outside my house , within 2 hours my wife was given the name of the two lads who stole it by a person who witnessed the crime, I informed the gardai and stood there aghast when they told me they wouldnt even be lifting these boys because it would be a waste of time as they wouldnt talk anyway..:rolleyes::rolleyes:

The terrible shooting of the detective beggars me to ask another question..why are detectives being used to escort money anyway?..shouldnt banks protect their own money, its not a job for the tax payer

Sir Gallagher

BigEoghan wrote: »

Many thanks for your considered reply.

Crime rates are based on reported crimes AND detected crimes. Not all crimes are reported. For example almost all if not all drug crimes are detected and not reported.

Being new to boards I've just been reading some of the posts in the new members forum. One that caught my eye (particularly points 1. and 3.) was -

***READ THIS FIRST - Forum Charter (The Rules) - READ THIS FIRST***

Feel free to introduce yourself on the Introductions thread and remember the 3 golden rules:

Attack the post, never the poster. In other words, don't make it personal. If you wish to debate a topic or rebut a statement, insulting any boards.ie user will only get you in trouble. You are free to have a go a their argument. You are not free to have a go at them.

Don't use text speak. The use of txtspk is strictly forbidden in all forums on boards.

Don't be a dick. In other words, behave yourself. Treat other people with respect, be nice, friendly, rational, and most of all... have fun!

Just curious to know at what point do these rules cease to apply? Being a veteran of more than 2000 posts I'm sure you'll be able to tell me the answer to this one.

You've got a lot of heart kid.

Witcher

Kinzig wrote: »

shouldnt banks protect their own money, its not a job for the tax payer

Banks/CU's/PO's pay the costs of any Gardai/DF personnel escorting cash for them.

Article

If the banks were to provide their own security it would have to be an unarmed force.

jank

Judgement Day wrote: »

I don't care whether the chip wrapper Independent ran the story or not, Shatter will go down in history as the worst Minister for Justice ever - and that takes some doing.

Worse than Ray Burke? Em, OK!! Rant away...

conorhal

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Wrong! Crime rates are based the numbers of REPORTED crimes, the crime rate has nothing to do with detection rate! Duh!!!

How many people these days feel that there is any point in reporting a crime? And how many reported crimes are downgraded or recorded?

Caliden

Scotland has a higher population and yet has less police stations than Ireland. The only reason we have so many is because they were opened before modern communications and modern vehicles.

Cee-Jay-Cee

flutered wrote: »

i agree with the widow, if shatter and company would visit without the media well and good, this was not going to happen, when any one/ thing gets an inch, they then try to take another inch, the gang who are involved in the killing did not arrive out of nowhere, how have they been allowed to grow and prosper, also get so strong as to shoot a guard thinking that they can get away with it, then we have shatter asking minor criminals for info, comical, local cops get local info, cops stationed miles away will get none, down in co.limerick the bruff district covers most of rural limerick, last year they had three cars, how can they manage, the amount of burgelerys alone is horrific, we then had the BMW motor company attempting to supply state of the art police cars at little cost to the state, what happens, they buy standard FORD mondeos, then put garda lights and stripes on them.

The servicing costs of the BMWs was the deal breaker in this case.

Death and Taxes

conorhal wrote: »

How many people these days feel that there is any point in reporting a crime? And how many reported crimes are downgraded or recorded?

What do you mean downgraded? All reported crimes are recorded.

Happyman42

quietsailor wrote: »

What do you mean by this? Did the Minister for justice turn down an offer of help from BMW?

Pesky Germins!

MagicSean

theoneeyedman wrote: »

I'm not going to defend shatter for the cutbacks, and who Mrs Donohue invites to her home is her own business.
However IMO the guards and their reps need a kick in the hole. It's in very bad taste to be using the shooting of detective O Donoghue as an instrument of protest against the cutbacks is in bad taste. This was the tone of a lot of their media work all week and now the feeding of a story like this is disrespectful to the man that was killed. Ally this with the vindictive leaking of the Claire Daly story last week and you have a police force too close to the media imo. The guards are asking small time criminals to come forward with info on the shooting.....if u do there is a good chance you'll get your photo in the paper I'd say.

What's disrespectful is that people are saying his death could not have been prevented.

WileyCoyote wrote: »

With regard to the first part of your post Sean, how do you explain the fall in most catagories of crime in recent years? CSO stats (compiled using information provided by AGS and others) show most catagories of serious crime have recorded a drop)
With regard to the second part of your post nobody should have to wait an hour for a Garda in those circumstances.
I am not trying to minimize the effect of cuts but it does seem somewhat disingenous to link those cuts directly to this cowardly murder.

Can you show me the figures you are referring to? I would be very reluctant to believe anything that comes from the CSO. I would imagine incidents like burglary, aggravated burglary and robbery are up while incidents of things like theft and criminal damage are down.

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry, you're right, nothing bad happened before 2008.

Oh it did. It just happens more frequently now.

dvpower wrote: »

It seems crazy, but here you have it:

Have what? I think you need to need to examine the word "direct". All the cuts have contributed to a culture of crime were boundaries are reduced and confidence and greed are more prevelant. The Dublin gangs are going out to the country and robbing it blind. The Dublin gangs are going out to the country and robing it blind and then using that money to fund bigger crimes.

charlemont wrote: »

I'm going to see what happens, My ex is hesitant to complain but I'm not happy about it. I want her to go the Ombudsman about it. The children got great descriptions of those involved and their car and the responding Gardaí had little or no interest in it, Unless these burglars are informers as I can't understand why they were not even interested in the descriptions. Several houses in the area have cctv and the car was captured on a few of them. Alan Shatter can't be blamed for any of this. Closing station's too cannot be blamed for people who are just uninterested in their work.

If you've named the lads and nothing has been done then you should report it to the Ombudsman. If you described two guys in tracksuits in a silver car then I'd ask who you wanted arrested.

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Wrong! Crime rates are based the numbers of REPORTED crimes, the crime rate has nothing to do with detection rate! Duh!!!

Some crimes can only be classed as detected, drugs and public order being the prime example. Other crimes would be similar but you mightn't think it. Many cases where a firearm has been discharged are not reported by the victim. I've seen loads of stabbings where the victim won't even deal with the Gardaí.

WileyCoyote wrote: »

What do you mean downgraded? All reported crimes are recorded.

Many crimes can fit into more than one category. So a burglary can also come under the heading of trespass or criminal damage. Same goes for a theft from a car. It's not incorrect but it mightn't give an accurate reflection of what is occurring.

Death and Taxes

MagicSean wrote: »

What's disrespectful is that people are saying his death could not have been prevented.

Can you show me the figures you are referring to? I would be very reluctant to believe anything that comes from the CSO. I would imagine incidents like burglary, aggravated burglary and robbery are up while incidents of things like theft and criminal damage are down.

Here is a link to an Irish Times article on the stats Sean.
The full dataset can be found at:
http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/crimeandjustice/

On your point re unreported crime, there can be no doubt that alot of crime does go unreported, however there is no data that would suggest that the level of failure to report has increased in recent years so it should not affect comparisons of statistics. However if people no have to travel a large distance to report minor crime then it is possible that the closure of Garda stations may have a real impact on reported crime levels in the future.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0818/1224322378674.html

"By the end of last year, homicides had fallen by 52 per cent from a peak of 138 cases in 2007. Drugs offences have dropped by 24 per cent since 2008, with the specific offence of possessing drugs for personal use down by 30 per cent.
Cases of discharging a firearm have fallen by 49 per cent since peaking at 326 cases in 2007. Recorded cases of possession of a firearm have dropped by 35 per cent, from 457 incidents in 2008 to 297 last year. Public-order crimes peaked in 2008 at 61,822 offences, but have since fallen by 21 per cent. Assaults are down by 12 per cent, criminal damage is down by 21 per cent.
Burglary has bucked the downward trend by increasing by 15 per cent, and theft from the person is up 25 per cent. The cultivation of cannabis has doubled, as have prostitution offences.
However, even when spikes in those areas are taken into account, overall crime has fallen by 13 per cent since its peak in 2008, after increasing consistently for a decade and a half."

2ndcoming

Caliden wrote: »

Scotland has a higher population and yet has less police stations than Ireland. The only reason we have so many is because they were opened before modern communications and modern vehicles.

The demographics are totally different. Vast chunks of Scotland are virtually uninhabited and the population is mainly centred in cities and large towns. Comparing us to Scotland is pointless.

Death and Taxes

2ndcoming wrote: »

The demographics are totally different. Vast chunks of Scotland are virtually uninhabited and the population is mainly centred in cities and large towns. Comparing us to Scotland is pointless.

Not really, the vast majority of our population also live in cities or large urban centres.

2ndcoming

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Not really, the vast majority of our population also live in cities or large urban centres.

A high proportion do, but I don't think there's anywhere in the country you would consider virtually uninhabited. The dispersion is very different to Scotland.

2ndcoming

This demonstrates it pretty well...